Official Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Official Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Author
Discussion

Andy S15

399 posts

126 months

Tuesday 10th September 2019
quotequote all
C70R said:
Nah. Italian sports fans are a lovely, misunderstood bunch.
Looters Stripping Fisichella's Benneton

I'm sure they just wanted a group cuddle...




Edited by Andy S15 on Tuesday 10th September 14:46

HighwayStar

4,216 posts

143 months

Tuesday 10th September 2019
quotequote all
Double gauche said:
M4CK 1 said:
Derek Smith said:
Deesee said:
BBC JP on the ‘antics’

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863

One of the two best pundits (English Media) in the paddock IMO
I agree with Palmer, which no doubt makes him feel better.

The drivers moaned about being allowed to race, and moan also about consistency. At least they won't moan when there's a serious accident caused by a driver not leaving enough room. Or maybe they will.

It was a bad move by CLC, one that should have been properly punished.
I'd like to echo this comment.
What would've happened if Lewis not taken to the escape road.
What would've happened if Lewis underbraking on the grass verge, had gone sideways.
What what would've happened if they had clipped wheels if Hamilton had refused to move over.
OBLITERATION.
Both Hamilton and Charles would've had a major crash.

Weaving under braking and leaving your opponent enough space on track was made a rule for a good reason!!!!
Is this what the fans want??
Yes we want hard racing but it's more enjoyable when it's fair!!!!!
what was lewis doing there though?
no chance of an overtake around the outside
he wasnt fully alongside
only bad things can happen
why is it different from the albon sainz incident ?

He was there applying pressure. Letting Leclerc know he’s there. Giving him something to think about. That’s why he was there. Only bad things can happen if you’re not given the room which was there and then taken away but... that’s not a problem now, you can squeeze a drive a bit, even a little contact. If bad things happen the penalties come out. The new rules of engagement. All the drivers will have seen this and approaching racing differently going forward.

Deesee

8,331 posts

82 months

Tuesday 10th September 2019
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coetzeeh

2,641 posts

235 months

Tuesday 10th September 2019
quotequote all
I can't wait for the next race - the Red Bulls will be very competitive and giving the Mercs a hard time.

Pretty sure Max was watching all of this and saying "game on, that is my territory".

Parts guys better start making spare panels already.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Tuesday 10th September 2019
quotequote all
Hmm, I certainly think Redbull will be ahead of Ferrari at Marina Bay; hopefully they can keep Mercedes honest but I'm not holding my breath.

Europa1

10,923 posts

187 months

Tuesday 10th September 2019
quotequote all
kambites said:
Hmm, I certainly think Redbull will be ahead of Ferrari at Marina Bay; hopefully they can keep Mercedes honest but I'm not holding my breath.
It'll be fascinating to watch, as my perception has been that Singapore is not traditionally a "Mercedes" track, and that Hamilton's pole lap last year was pretty much up there with Senna's mythical lap at Monaco (admittedly the 360 camera on Hamilton's car added to the other-worldliness!).

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 10th September 2019
quotequote all
Europa1 said:
kambites said:
Hmm, I certainly think Redbull will be ahead of Ferrari at Marina Bay; hopefully they can keep Mercedes honest but I'm not holding my breath.
It'll be fascinating to watch, as my perception has been that Singapore is not traditionally a "Mercedes" track, and that Hamilton's pole lap last year was pretty much up there with Senna's mythical lap at Monaco (admittedly the 360 camera on Hamilton's car added to the other-worldliness!).
Hamilton’s lap was incredible but Verstappen was hamstrung by a drivability issue with his Renault power unit IIRC, I think Red Bull will be very much in contention for the front row of the grid.

kambites

67,461 posts

220 months

Tuesday 10th September 2019
quotequote all
I was under the impression that Mercedes had ironed out their weakness in low speed corners this year and are now at last the equals of Redbull in that regard?

Mr_Thyroid

1,995 posts

226 months

Tuesday 10th September 2019
quotequote all
Double gauche said:
what was lewis doing there though?
no chance of an overtake around the outside
he wasnt fully alongside
only bad things can happen
why is it different from the albon sainz incident ?
Positioning your car on the outside forces the inside driver narrow, compromising their line through the corner and making a pass on the exit or the next corner possible. It's totally legitimate to put your car on the outside on the entry because the inside driver is supposed to be obliged to hold their line.

As Palmer implies, penalties do not kill racing, drivers forcing each other off track kills racing.

heebeegeetee

28,596 posts

247 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
Double gauche said:
what was lewis doing there though?
no chance of an overtake around the outside
he wasnt fully alongside
only bad things can happen
He was doing the same as he did to Seb on lap 1 last year, and a good thing happened from his perspective. It's callrd putting pressure on, and it quite often works.

Charles cracked twice under pressure imo. It was a great race and everything, and I think both drivers were fantastic, but that result wouldn't have stood at any other circuit.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
Double gauche said:
what was lewis doing there though?
no chance of an overtake around the outside
he wasnt fully alongside
only bad things can happen
He was doing the same as he did to Seb on lap 1 last year, and a good thing happened from his perspective. It's callrd putting pressure on, and it quite often works.

Charles cracked twice under pressure imo. It was a great race and everything, and I think both drivers were fantastic, but that result wouldn't have stood at any other circuit.
That result wouldn’t have happened in the first place at any other circuit. The Mercedes is clearly still the best car out there.

Having watched it again it was the right decision. Leclerc was on the limit with the gap he left but it wasn’t that bad, unless we are all ready to accept that real racing has ended.

Derek Smith

45,514 posts

247 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
That result wouldn’t have happened in the first place at any other circuit. The Mercedes is clearly still the best car out there.

Having watched it again it was the right decision. Leclerc was on the limit with the gap he left but it wasn’t that bad, unless we are all ready to accept that real racing has ended.
The Merc clearly wasn't the best car at Monza.

As for 'that bad', I think forcing a driver onto the grass when in the breaking area for a corner is pretty bad. CLC should be grateful for LH's expertise in handling the car and in rapid decision-making. Had he chosen to do the same with many other drivers - let's not name names - it would have ended badly.

Hamilton is good at pressuring drivers in front on him where he is unable to pass through lack of performance. As someone else said, CLC made two errors, of which the forcing off LH was one. Both were down to LH.




Deesee

8,331 posts

82 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
Looking back there’s quite a bit of credit that Seb did not get for driving the perfect lap (by giving CLC the tow).

Bottas was just short pole (and lifted on parabolica due to Kimi going off).

Also Seb (& Lewis) did not get the chance for a return tow in the q3 second run.

That 2nd part of Q 3 played a huge part in how the race played out.

Seb drove a great race in Spa to get the win for his team, a great Quali to get CLC the pole..

I can’t see him playing as nicely in the coming races..

HardtopManual

2,404 posts

165 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
Let me start by saying that my favourite team is Ferrari and my favourite driver is Any Brit.

I didn't like Charles' moves on Lewis at the Della Roggia chicane. For me, it sours the victory - only slightly, but all the same, it wasn't 100% clean racing. If Charles hadn't put Lewis on the grass by moving in the braking zone, Lewis would have been on the inside for the right-hander and for the two Lesmos, and would almost certainly have taken the lead. So, all those people saying that the new rule interpretation is great for the spectacle, it actually robbed them of an overtake for the lead at the weekend. Albeit an overtake that would have been generally unpopular, given the venue and recent Merc/Lewis domination of the sport.

Note that this is me railing against the new rule interpretation, not the drivers. Charles knew he'd be able to get away with one or two marginal moves against Lewis, just as he knew that Lewis would rather stay behind him than crash. In a Ferrari, at Monza, Charles did the logical thing.

DanielSan

18,748 posts

166 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
He was doing the same as he did to Seb on lap 1 last year, and a good thing happened from his perspective. It's callrd putting pressure on, and it quite often works.

Charles cracked twice under pressure imo. It was a great race and everything, and I think both drivers were fantastic, but that result wouldn't have stood at any other circuit.
Chances are the result wouldn't have stood before the summer break, since then rules have been tweaked and the drivers were all happy with the decision made. The only reason any of them will bh now is because they're racing drivers and aren't getting their own way of they're on the wrong side of things.

Get hlwhat results would've stood before the summer break now out of your head, it's not going to be the same and the racing will be all the better for it. Fan want to see battles like Villenueve vs Arnoux, well with this rule tweak they've got the potential to have it, just because the result doesn't go the way you want it to doesn't mean that the rule has to be changed yet again to suit the desired result.... That sounds quite familiar actuallyhehe

rdjohn

6,135 posts

194 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
M4CK 1 said:
Derek Smith said:
Deesee said:
BBC JP on the ‘antics’

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863

One of the two best pundits (English Media) in the paddock IMO
I agree with Palmer, which no doubt makes him feel better.

The drivers moaned about being allowed to race, and moan also about consistency. At least they won't moan when there's a serious accident caused by a driver not leaving enough room. Or maybe they will.

It was a bad move by CLC, one that should have been properly punished.
I'd like to echo this comment.
What would've happened if Lewis not taken to the escape road.
What would've happened if Lewis underbraking on the grass verge, had gone sideways.
What what would've happened if they had clipped wheels if Hamilton had refused to move over.
OBLITERATION.
Both Hamilton and Charles would've had a major crash.

Weaving under braking and leaving your opponent enough space on track was made a rule for a good reason!!!!
Is this what the fans want??
Yes we want hard racing but it's more enjoyable when it's fair!!!!!
I have now belatedly read the JP piece. He does make some very valid points. Perhaps the key issue is that if the black and white flag is meant as a yellow card, then there is a certain logic that a second offence in the same race warrants a red card - incurring some form of penalty. Even if that effectively ruins the race outcome.

I also agree that this is going to go on until there is a serious accident. The speeds at Monza are frightening, but there is space off the track. But if similar logic is applied in Singapore, then the consequences will inevitably be more severe.


HardtopManual

2,404 posts

165 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
That result wouldn’t have happened in the first place at any other circuit. The Mercedes is clearly still the best car out there.

Having watched it again it was the right decision. Leclerc was on the limit with the gap he left but it wasn’t that bad, unless we are all ready to accept that real racing has ended.
I'd be interested to hear your definition of "real racing" in an open cockpit, open wheel formula with 1500bhp/ton. At the weekend, Lewis was mere inches from being launched into the air at a piece of track that is about as close to spectators as it's possible to get in F1.

Deesee

8,331 posts

82 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
M4CK 1 said:
Derek Smith said:
Deesee said:
BBC JP on the ‘antics’

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863

One of the two best pundits (English Media) in the paddock IMO
I agree with Palmer, which no doubt makes him feel better.

The drivers moaned about being allowed to race, and moan also about consistency. At least they won't moan when there's a serious accident caused by a driver not leaving enough room. Or maybe they will.

It was a bad move by CLC, one that should have been properly punished.
I'd like to echo this comment.
What would've happened if Lewis not taken to the escape road.
What would've happened if Lewis underbraking on the grass verge, had gone sideways.
What what would've happened if they had clipped wheels if Hamilton had refused to move over.
OBLITERATION.
Both Hamilton and Charles would've had a major crash.

Weaving under braking and leaving your opponent enough space on track was made a rule for a good reason!!!!
Is this what the fans want??
Yes we want hard racing but it's more enjoyable when it's fair!!!!!
I have now belatedly read the JP piece. He does make some very valid points. Perhaps the key issue is that if the black and white flag is meant as a yellow card, then there is a certain logic that a second offence in the same race warrants a red card - incurring some form of penalty. Even if that effectively ruins the race outcome.

I also agree that this is going to go on until there is a serious accident. The speeds at Monza are frightening, but there is space off the track. But if similar logic is applied in Singapore, then the consequences will inevitably be more severe.
More on this black and white flag, the consensus is that it’s a great idea, however someone could have 22 of them in a season and no further actions.

They may reduce this down to 3/4/5 per year Max, In place of or with the penalty points.

One thing is now for sure moving under breaking is allowed...as such...

Hungrymc

6,643 posts

136 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
DanielSan said:
Chances are the result wouldn't have stood before the summer break, since then rules have been tweaked and the drivers were all happy with the decision made. The only reason any of them will bh now is because they're racing drivers and aren't getting their own way of they're on the wrong side of things.

Get hlwhat results would've stood before the summer break now out of your head, it's not going to be the same and the racing will be all the better for it. Fan want to see battles like Villenueve vs Arnoux, well with this rule tweak they've got the potential to have it, just because the result doesn't go the way you want it to doesn't mean that the rule has to be changed yet again to suit the desired result.... That sounds quite familiar actuallyhehe
You're conflating hard racing (which the drivers want) and illegal moves (which no one voted for) though?

Charles made other defensive moves that were very hard and totally fair. There was some brilliant driving.

Moving under braking and putting the other car off track was illegal and does nothing to aid hard racing. In-fact, if you can put the chasing car off track, at the very least you've nullified the racing for some time while the clean tyres and re-engage.

And as for contact determining the penalty when this is in the hands of the other driver.... LOL... no one is that stupid to believe this is a good thing?

This is a ridiculous and ill conceived approach.

angrymoby

2,605 posts

177 months

Wednesday 11th September 2019
quotequote all
Deesee said:
One thing is now for sure moving under breaking is allowed...as such...
using football analogy i'm guessing the FIA are classing moving under braking as a 'foul' ...moving under braking & causing another driver off track as a 'yellow card' ...& moving under braking & causing another driver off track AND collision as a 'red card'

personally i'd class 'moving under braking & causing another driver off track as pretty fking dangerous & worthy of a straight red imo

& if we're going down the football card system, i'd also say that 'gaining a lasting advantage' is a 'red' i.e you're gonna get some form of penalty, so 'not losing an advantage' is worthy of a 'yellow' because i can think of a fair few corners & a fair few occasions where (pretty much all) drivers have locked up under braking have gone straight on to stay ahead of another car

so all in all ...the ref bottled it in front of the home crowd wink

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 11th September 14:33