Official Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Official Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Author
Discussion

DanielSan

14,351 posts

112 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
heebeegeetee said:
He was doing the same as he did to Seb on lap 1 last year, and a good thing happened from his perspective. It's callrd putting pressure on, and it quite often works.

Charles cracked twice under pressure imo. It was a great race and everything, and I think both drivers were fantastic, but that result wouldn't have stood at any other circuit.
Chances are the result wouldn't have stood before the summer break, since then rules have been tweaked and the drivers were all happy with the decision made. The only reason any of them will bh now is because they're racing drivers and aren't getting their own way of they're on the wrong side of things.

Get hlwhat results would've stood before the summer break now out of your head, it's not going to be the same and the racing will be all the better for it. Fan want to see battles like Villenueve vs Arnoux, well with this rule tweak they've got the potential to have it, just because the result doesn't go the way you want it to doesn't mean that the rule has to be changed yet again to suit the desired result.... That sounds quite familiar actuallyhehe

rdjohn

3,631 posts

140 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
M4CK 1 said:
Derek Smith said:
Deesee said:
BBC JP on the ‘antics’

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863

One of the two best pundits (English Media) in the paddock IMO
I agree with Palmer, which no doubt makes him feel better.

The drivers moaned about being allowed to race, and moan also about consistency. At least they won't moan when there's a serious accident caused by a driver not leaving enough room. Or maybe they will.

It was a bad move by CLC, one that should have been properly punished.
I'd like to echo this comment.
What would've happened if Lewis not taken to the escape road.
What would've happened if Lewis underbraking on the grass verge, had gone sideways.
What what would've happened if they had clipped wheels if Hamilton had refused to move over.
OBLITERATION.
Both Hamilton and Charles would've had a major crash.

Weaving under braking and leaving your opponent enough space on track was made a rule for a good reason!!!!
Is this what the fans want??
Yes we want hard racing but it's more enjoyable when it's fair!!!!!
I have now belatedly read the JP piece. He does make some very valid points. Perhaps the key issue is that if the black and white flag is meant as a yellow card, then there is a certain logic that a second offence in the same race warrants a red card - incurring some form of penalty. Even if that effectively ruins the race outcome.

I also agree that this is going to go on until there is a serious accident. The speeds at Monza are frightening, but there is space off the track. But if similar logic is applied in Singapore, then the consequences will inevitably be more severe.


HardtopManual

1,232 posts

111 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
That result wouldn’t have happened in the first place at any other circuit. The Mercedes is clearly still the best car out there.

Having watched it again it was the right decision. Leclerc was on the limit with the gap he left but it wasn’t that bad, unless we are all ready to accept that real racing has ended.
I'd be interested to hear your definition of "real racing" in an open cockpit, open wheel formula with 1500bhp/ton. At the weekend, Lewis was mere inches from being launched into the air at a piece of track that is about as close to spectators as it's possible to get in F1.

Deesee

2,741 posts

28 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
rdjohn said:
M4CK 1 said:
Derek Smith said:
Deesee said:
BBC JP on the ‘antics’

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/49629863

One of the two best pundits (English Media) in the paddock IMO
I agree with Palmer, which no doubt makes him feel better.

The drivers moaned about being allowed to race, and moan also about consistency. At least they won't moan when there's a serious accident caused by a driver not leaving enough room. Or maybe they will.

It was a bad move by CLC, one that should have been properly punished.
I'd like to echo this comment.
What would've happened if Lewis not taken to the escape road.
What would've happened if Lewis underbraking on the grass verge, had gone sideways.
What what would've happened if they had clipped wheels if Hamilton had refused to move over.
OBLITERATION.
Both Hamilton and Charles would've had a major crash.

Weaving under braking and leaving your opponent enough space on track was made a rule for a good reason!!!!
Is this what the fans want??
Yes we want hard racing but it's more enjoyable when it's fair!!!!!
I have now belatedly read the JP piece. He does make some very valid points. Perhaps the key issue is that if the black and white flag is meant as a yellow card, then there is a certain logic that a second offence in the same race warrants a red card - incurring some form of penalty. Even if that effectively ruins the race outcome.

I also agree that this is going to go on until there is a serious accident. The speeds at Monza are frightening, but there is space off the track. But if similar logic is applied in Singapore, then the consequences will inevitably be more severe.
More on this black and white flag, the consensus is that it’s a great idea, however someone could have 22 of them in a season and no further actions.

They may reduce this down to 3/4/5 per year Max, In place of or with the penalty points.

One thing is now for sure moving under breaking is allowed...as such...

Hungrymc

4,074 posts

82 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
DanielSan said:
Chances are the result wouldn't have stood before the summer break, since then rules have been tweaked and the drivers were all happy with the decision made. The only reason any of them will bh now is because they're racing drivers and aren't getting their own way of they're on the wrong side of things.

Get hlwhat results would've stood before the summer break now out of your head, it's not going to be the same and the racing will be all the better for it. Fan want to see battles like Villenueve vs Arnoux, well with this rule tweak they've got the potential to have it, just because the result doesn't go the way you want it to doesn't mean that the rule has to be changed yet again to suit the desired result.... That sounds quite familiar actuallyhehe
You're conflating hard racing (which the drivers want) and illegal moves (which no one voted for) though?

Charles made other defensive moves that were very hard and totally fair. There was some brilliant driving.

Moving under braking and putting the other car off track was illegal and does nothing to aid hard racing. In-fact, if you can put the chasing car off track, at the very least you've nullified the racing for some time while the clean tyres and re-engage.

And as for contact determining the penalty when this is in the hands of the other driver.... LOL... no one is that stupid to believe this is a good thing?

This is a ridiculous and ill conceived approach.

angrymoby

953 posts

123 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Deesee said:
One thing is now for sure moving under breaking is allowed...as such...
using football analogy i'm guessing the FIA are classing moving under braking as a 'foul' ...moving under braking & causing another driver off track as a 'yellow card' ...& moving under braking & causing another driver off track AND collision as a 'red card'

personally i'd class 'moving under braking & causing another driver off track as pretty fking dangerous & worthy of a straight red imo

& if we're going down the football card system, i'd also say that 'gaining a lasting advantage' is a 'red' i.e you're gonna get some form of penalty, so 'not losing an advantage' is worthy of a 'yellow' because i can think of a fair few corners & a fair few occasions where (pretty much all) drivers have locked up under braking have gone straight on to stay ahead of another car

so all in all ...the ref bottled it in front of the home crowd wink

Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 11th September 14:33

Deesee

2,741 posts

28 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
angrymoby said:
Deesee said:
One thing is now for sure moving under breaking is allowed...as such...
using football analogy i'm guessing the FIA are classing moving under braking as a 'foul' ...moving under braking & causing another driver off track as a 'yellow card' ...& moving under braking & causing another driver off track AND collision as a 'red card'

personally i'd class 'moving under braking & causing another driver off track as pretty fking dangerous & worthy of a straight red imo

& if we're going down the football card system, i'd also say that 'gaining a lasting advantage' is a 'red' i.e you're gonna get some form of penalty, so 'not losing an advantage' is worthy of a 'yellow' because i can think of a fair few corners & a fair few occasions where (pretty much all) drivers have done that

so all in all ...the ref bottled it in front of the home crowd wink
Heres Masi talking to Ant about it (from2.20)

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/11...


Supersam83

303 posts

90 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
I think many seem to forget that LEC was pushed off the track and given no room when VER won the race in Austria this year.

After that race LEC realised that he could race in a similar way without any penalties and did so at the British GP this year and also at the Italian GP last weekend.

VER move at Austria was much more worse and included contact which LEC move against HAM at Italy did not.


Leclerc Vs Verstappen at Austrian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/ABKY6nbKIL4

Leclerc Vs Verstappen at British GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/RmvZyC6s_Wk

Leclerc Vs Hamilton at Italian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/1YKI0zM36Tc

Edited by Supersam83 on Wednesday 11th September 14:35

Hungrymc

4,074 posts

82 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Supersam83 said:
I think many seem to forget that LEC was pushed off the track and given no room when VER won the race in Austria this year.

After that race LEC realised that he could race in a similar way without any penalties and did so at the British GP this year and also at the Italian GP last weekend.

VER move at Austria was much more worst and included contact which LEC move at Italy did not.
I think this is an example of people missing the difference between driving to the outside kerb on a natural line during corner exit and late moves in the braking zone without leaving a car's width..... They're different, and it isn't complex to work out why. But just in case, when you're hung out to dry on the outside of corner exit, you can back off and yield... When you're at maximum braking and suddenly you're squeezed onto the grass, are you supposed to brake harder to yield?

It's also an example of the innocent driver opting for contact or not. The actions of the driver who isn't being questioned shouldn't have any bearing on the punishment (or not) for a driver who is being questioned. LEC could have driven off track and avoided contact - wouldn't have made Max's pass more or less questionable. Lewis drove off track to avoid LEC, and that was instrumental in LEC's penalty being the black / white flag and not anything more severe (and remember its in the far more dangerous braking zone).

They've created a crazy situation with this "contact" issue... Will we see the F1 equivalent of a dive?

Deesee

2,741 posts

28 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Indeed, if the innocent driver (in this case Hamilton) had keep all four wheels on the track (instead of two) and CLC made contact while moving under breaking.. what would we be looking at then? 5/10 second penalty for running a race/damaging a car, putting a fellow driver into a wall?

I thought the think tank were trying to encourage natural overtaking, now if your side by side you’ve almost got a get out of jail free card..

The mid field will be carnage without the racing respect of leaving a cars width and moving under breaking, as some just won’t yield and risk it.

rdjohn

3,631 posts

140 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
Supersam83 said:
I think many seem to forget that LEC was pushed off the track and given no room when VER won the race in Austria this year.

After that race LEC realised that he could race in a similar way without any penalties and did so at the British GP this year and also at the Italian GP last weekend.

VER move at Austria was much more worse and included contact which LEC move against HAM at Italy did not.


Leclerc Vs Verstappen at Austrian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/ABKY6nbKIL4

Leclerc Vs Verstappen at British GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/RmvZyC6s_Wk

Leclerc Vs Hamilton at Italian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/1YKI0zM36Tc

Edited by Supersam83 on Wednesday 11th September 14:35
I think if you read the JP piece you will recognise the difference.

On a controller approach to a corner under braking, it is easy enough to place the car and leave space for the other car. At the apex and exit of a corner the car can easily be under steering, or oversteering so may not actually be on the perfect racing line and so greater latitude can be made. This was the scenario with VET on LEC in Austria, but it took nearly 3-hours for the Stewards to decide. LEC on HAM at Monza was a simple case of him not leaving a car’s width and driving his opponent off the road. This was the same manoeuvre that HAM pulled on VET last year, but VET left sufficient room.

JP argues that the “yellow card” flag is a good idea, but the Stewards need consistency. Even though the flag was given, the Stewards can still look at an issue.

However 2-bad moves in a race should have a consequence for the erring driver. Piling on pressure from behind and forcing a error, is the essence of good racing. Entering a corner with the driver under pressure thinking - “I’m not having that, I will have you off” will inevitably lead to an accident.

HustleRussell

16,785 posts

105 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
I am conflicted about the stewarding decisions made at the weekend.

I was willing Leclerc to win

However, he;
-Left the track and gained an advantage
-Moved very late in turn three afterwards
-Failed to leave a car's width when a significant portion of a competitors car was alongside (fully alongside in this case)

I do not subscribe to the 'Ferrari International Assistance' stuff because I haven't really seen it, not in the time I have been keenly following the sport.

That said, I do feel that in most circumstances Charles' indiscretions would've resulted in at least one penalty... perhaps if it hadn't been the leading car, which did happen to be the Ferrari on this occasion. At home.

I also don't know how to feel about the way the stewards awarded penalties in varying degrees considering the outcome. Surely the offense is the offense, and taking an outcome-based view will make offenses more likely and- in the extreme- encourage drivers who perhaps don't have much to lose, or want to make a point- drive in such a way so as to create an 'outcome' from an offense?

If this is the direction it is going, this will either culminate in a golden era of hard racing complete with wheel banging etc etc, or a frustrating period where certain drivers take certain liberties removing themselves and other competitors from the race.

ETA: Actually, I think this subject warrants a thread of its own

Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 11th September 16:48

M4CK 1

367 posts

72 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
What's worrying me is Michael Masi's view.
When talking to Anthony Davidson on Sky, he was saying, even though CLC had broke the rules, taking a competitor off the track, because there was no contact you're a naughty boy, black and white flag and the next time there'll be further punishment.
What happens if there is contact. What happens if, God forbid, one or both of them were killed.
We've only just seen a young, bright racer killed, and his accident was no one's fault. We surely don't want to see another accident because a racer forces another one of the track.
Yes I love close racing but this is taking racing into a new dangerous era!!!

768

4,897 posts

41 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
You're right, LeClerc should never be allowed to race again.

37chevy

2,819 posts

101 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
M4CK 1 said:
What's worrying me is Michael Masi's view.
When talking to Anthony Davidson on Sky, he was saying, even though CLC had broke the rules, taking a competitor off the track, because there was no contact you're a naughty boy, black and white flag and the next time there'll be further punishment.
What happens if there is contact. What happens if, God forbid, one or both of them were killed.
We've only just seen a young, bright racer killed, and his accident was no one's fault. We surely don't want to see another accident because a racer forces another one of the track.
Yes I love close racing but this is taking racing into a new dangerous era!!!
It’s doing nothing of the sort. It’s using a tried and tested method for penalising drivers used in hundreds of series worldwide from club racing to world championship level Motorsport

M4CK 1

367 posts

72 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
768 said:
You're right, LeClerc should never be allowed to race again.
That's just daft!!
There are rules and boundaries in racing, when you step over them, there should be repercussions and a black and white flag after already weaving under braking. Both Vettel and Stroll were punished for a dangerous manoeuvre why CLC???

M4CK 1

367 posts

72 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
37chevy said:
It’s doing nothing of the sort. It’s using a tried and tested method for penalising drivers used in hundreds of series worldwide from club racing to world championship level Motorsport
What, like stock car racing???

janesmith1950

3,650 posts

40 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
I berate the lack of perceived danger in F1, it's supposed to be a 'gladiator' sport involving not just skill, but bravery.

The current application of the rules troubles me, though. The drivers are being given the impression that elbows out driving is not.just being tolerated, but perhaps encouraged.

In tin tops, we're used to seeing contact between cars that results in race ending crashes. It, debatably, adds to the spectacle. Even so, in these much slower and fully enclosed cars, we see injuries.

In F1, the kinetic energies involved are massive. The panning camera angles of cars steaming in the same direction conspire to hide the true velocity and power. You only have to look at the race car being launched off the sausage kerb earlier in the weekend to see how violent a lower speed than F1 crash can be, without any other participant intervention.

The search for spectacle saw Leclerc avoid a penalty on Sunday for crowding Hamilton off the track. Putting all sporting rivalries or support aside, had those cars tangled wheels at that point, rather than Hamilton taking to the grass, the resultant crash could have been enormous. All bets are off as to which way up either car would have been when they came to a halt.

Hamilton suggested after the race that, had there not been a championship at stake, he may not have moved away. Without wishing to cast doubt on his honesty, I could also imagine an older, wiser and pragmatic racing driver.in Hamilton not fancying flying through the air at 100mph+ to discover what the Monza gravel tastes like.

We all want titillating, to see man and machine challenged and at risk, however we all want to see the actors go home safe at the end of the race. I fear that, armed with these steward's decisions, race drivers will do what race drivers do, and take the mile when offered an inch. It won't be their fault, and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll have to wait long for a negative response to last weekend.

37chevy

2,819 posts

101 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
M4CK 1 said:
What, like stock car racing???
No, like all UK and European single seater, sportscar and saloon car racing...which has been in place for decades and has worked perfectly well

https://www.motorsportuk.org/assets/273-292specifi...

M4CK 1

367 posts

72 months

Wednesday 11th September
quotequote all
M4CK 1 said:
37chevy said:
It’s doing nothing of the sort. It’s using a tried and tested method for penalising drivers used in hundreds of series worldwide from club racing to world championship level Motorsport
What, like stock car racing???
There's nothing in those rules to say it's OK to force somebody off the track in fact it says its strictly forbidden!!
The back and white flag is for a misdemeanor not a blatant act of dangerous driving.
Michael Masi took on it himself to class this incident as a misdemeanor and not pass to the Stewards when CLC had already dangerously weaved underbraking!!