Official Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
angrymoby said:
Deesee said:
One thing is now for sure moving under breaking is allowed...as such...
using football analogy i'm guessing the FIA are classing moving under braking as a 'foul' ...moving under braking & causing another driver off track as a 'yellow card' ...& moving under braking & causing another driver off track AND collision as a 'red card'personally i'd class 'moving under braking & causing another driver off track as pretty f
king dangerous & worthy of a straight red imo& if we're going down the football card system, i'd also say that 'gaining a lasting advantage' is a 'red' i.e you're gonna get some form of penalty, so 'not losing an advantage' is worthy of a 'yellow' because i can think of a fair few corners & a fair few occasions where (pretty much all) drivers have done that
so all in all ...the ref bottled it in front of the home crowd
https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/11...
I think many seem to forget that LEC was pushed off the track and given no room when VER won the race in Austria this year.
After that race LEC realised that he could race in a similar way without any penalties and did so at the British GP this year and also at the Italian GP last weekend.
VER move at Austria was much more worse and included contact which LEC move against HAM at Italy did not.
Leclerc Vs Verstappen at Austrian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/ABKY6nbKIL4
Leclerc Vs Verstappen at British GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/RmvZyC6s_Wk
Leclerc Vs Hamilton at Italian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/1YKI0zM36Tc
After that race LEC realised that he could race in a similar way without any penalties and did so at the British GP this year and also at the Italian GP last weekend.
VER move at Austria was much more worse and included contact which LEC move against HAM at Italy did not.
Leclerc Vs Verstappen at Austrian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/ABKY6nbKIL4
Leclerc Vs Verstappen at British GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/RmvZyC6s_Wk
Leclerc Vs Hamilton at Italian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/1YKI0zM36Tc
Edited by Supersam83 on Wednesday 11th September 14:35
Supersam83 said:
I think many seem to forget that LEC was pushed off the track and given no room when VER won the race in Austria this year.
After that race LEC realised that he could race in a similar way without any penalties and did so at the British GP this year and also at the Italian GP last weekend.
VER move at Austria was much more worst and included contact which LEC move at Italy did not.
I think this is an example of people missing the difference between driving to the outside kerb on a natural line during corner exit and late moves in the braking zone without leaving a car's width..... They're different, and it isn't complex to work out why. But just in case, when you're hung out to dry on the outside of corner exit, you can back off and yield... When you're at maximum braking and suddenly you're squeezed onto the grass, are you supposed to brake harder to yield? After that race LEC realised that he could race in a similar way without any penalties and did so at the British GP this year and also at the Italian GP last weekend.
VER move at Austria was much more worst and included contact which LEC move at Italy did not.
It's also an example of the innocent driver opting for contact or not. The actions of the driver who isn't being questioned shouldn't have any bearing on the punishment (or not) for a driver who is being questioned. LEC could have driven off track and avoided contact - wouldn't have made Max's pass more or less questionable. Lewis drove off track to avoid LEC, and that was instrumental in LEC's penalty being the black / white flag and not anything more severe (and remember its in the far more dangerous braking zone).
They've created a crazy situation with this "contact" issue... Will we see the F1 equivalent of a dive?
Indeed, if the innocent driver (in this case Hamilton) had keep all four wheels on the track (instead of two) and CLC made contact while moving under breaking.. what would we be looking at then? 5/10 second penalty for running a race/damaging a car, putting a fellow driver into a wall?
I thought the think tank were trying to encourage natural overtaking, now if your side by side you’ve almost got a get out of jail free card..
The mid field will be carnage without the racing respect of leaving a cars width and moving under breaking, as some just won’t yield and risk it.
I thought the think tank were trying to encourage natural overtaking, now if your side by side you’ve almost got a get out of jail free card..
The mid field will be carnage without the racing respect of leaving a cars width and moving under breaking, as some just won’t yield and risk it.
Supersam83 said:
I think many seem to forget that LEC was pushed off the track and given no room when VER won the race in Austria this year.
After that race LEC realised that he could race in a similar way without any penalties and did so at the British GP this year and also at the Italian GP last weekend.
VER move at Austria was much more worse and included contact which LEC move against HAM at Italy did not.
Leclerc Vs Verstappen at Austrian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/ABKY6nbKIL4
Leclerc Vs Verstappen at British GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/RmvZyC6s_Wk
Leclerc Vs Hamilton at Italian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/1YKI0zM36Tc
I think if you read the JP piece you will recognise the difference.After that race LEC realised that he could race in a similar way without any penalties and did so at the British GP this year and also at the Italian GP last weekend.
VER move at Austria was much more worse and included contact which LEC move against HAM at Italy did not.
Leclerc Vs Verstappen at Austrian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/ABKY6nbKIL4
Leclerc Vs Verstappen at British GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/RmvZyC6s_Wk
Leclerc Vs Hamilton at Italian GP 2019 - https://youtu.be/1YKI0zM36Tc
Edited by Supersam83 on Wednesday 11th September 14:35
On a controller approach to a corner under braking, it is easy enough to place the car and leave space for the other car. At the apex and exit of a corner the car can easily be under steering, or oversteering so may not actually be on the perfect racing line and so greater latitude can be made. This was the scenario with VET on LEC in Austria, but it took nearly 3-hours for the Stewards to decide. LEC on HAM at Monza was a simple case of him not leaving a car’s width and driving his opponent off the road. This was the same manoeuvre that HAM pulled on VET last year, but VET left sufficient room.
JP argues that the “yellow card” flag is a good idea, but the Stewards need consistency. Even though the flag was given, the Stewards can still look at an issue.
However 2-bad moves in a race should have a consequence for the erring driver. Piling on pressure from behind and forcing a error, is the essence of good racing. Entering a corner with the driver under pressure thinking - “I’m not having that, I will have you off” will inevitably lead to an accident.
I am conflicted about the stewarding decisions made at the weekend.
I was willing Leclerc to win
However, he;
-Left the track and gained an advantage
-Moved very late in turn three afterwards
-Failed to leave a car's width when a significant portion of a competitors car was alongside (fully alongside in this case)
I do not subscribe to the 'Ferrari International Assistance' stuff because I haven't really seen it, not in the time I have been keenly following the sport.
That said, I do feel that in most circumstances Charles' indiscretions would've resulted in at least one penalty... perhaps if it hadn't been the leading car, which did happen to be the Ferrari on this occasion. At home.
I also don't know how to feel about the way the stewards awarded penalties in varying degrees considering the outcome. Surely the offense is the offense, and taking an outcome-based view will make offenses more likely and- in the extreme- encourage drivers who perhaps don't have much to lose, or want to make a point- drive in such a way so as to create an 'outcome' from an offense?
If this is the direction it is going, this will either culminate in a golden era of hard racing complete with wheel banging etc etc, or a frustrating period where certain drivers take certain liberties removing themselves and other competitors from the race.
ETA: Actually, I think this subject warrants a thread of its own
I was willing Leclerc to win
However, he;
-Left the track and gained an advantage
-Moved very late in turn three afterwards
-Failed to leave a car's width when a significant portion of a competitors car was alongside (fully alongside in this case)
I do not subscribe to the 'Ferrari International Assistance' stuff because I haven't really seen it, not in the time I have been keenly following the sport.
That said, I do feel that in most circumstances Charles' indiscretions would've resulted in at least one penalty... perhaps if it hadn't been the leading car, which did happen to be the Ferrari on this occasion. At home.
I also don't know how to feel about the way the stewards awarded penalties in varying degrees considering the outcome. Surely the offense is the offense, and taking an outcome-based view will make offenses more likely and- in the extreme- encourage drivers who perhaps don't have much to lose, or want to make a point- drive in such a way so as to create an 'outcome' from an offense?
If this is the direction it is going, this will either culminate in a golden era of hard racing complete with wheel banging etc etc, or a frustrating period where certain drivers take certain liberties removing themselves and other competitors from the race.
ETA: Actually, I think this subject warrants a thread of its own
Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 11th September 16:48
What's worrying me is Michael Masi's view.
When talking to Anthony Davidson on Sky, he was saying, even though CLC had broke the rules, taking a competitor off the track, because there was no contact you're a naughty boy, black and white flag and the next time there'll be further punishment.
What happens if there is contact. What happens if, God forbid, one or both of them were killed.
We've only just seen a young, bright racer killed, and his accident was no one's fault. We surely don't want to see another accident because a racer forces another one of the track.
Yes I love close racing but this is taking racing into a new dangerous era!!!
When talking to Anthony Davidson on Sky, he was saying, even though CLC had broke the rules, taking a competitor off the track, because there was no contact you're a naughty boy, black and white flag and the next time there'll be further punishment.
What happens if there is contact. What happens if, God forbid, one or both of them were killed.
We've only just seen a young, bright racer killed, and his accident was no one's fault. We surely don't want to see another accident because a racer forces another one of the track.
Yes I love close racing but this is taking racing into a new dangerous era!!!
M4CK 1 said:
What's worrying me is Michael Masi's view.
When talking to Anthony Davidson on Sky, he was saying, even though CLC had broke the rules, taking a competitor off the track, because there was no contact you're a naughty boy, black and white flag and the next time there'll be further punishment.
What happens if there is contact. What happens if, God forbid, one or both of them were killed.
We've only just seen a young, bright racer killed, and his accident was no one's fault. We surely don't want to see another accident because a racer forces another one of the track.
Yes I love close racing but this is taking racing into a new dangerous era!!!
It’s doing nothing of the sort. It’s using a tried and tested method for penalising drivers used in hundreds of series worldwide from club racing to world championship level Motorsport When talking to Anthony Davidson on Sky, he was saying, even though CLC had broke the rules, taking a competitor off the track, because there was no contact you're a naughty boy, black and white flag and the next time there'll be further punishment.
What happens if there is contact. What happens if, God forbid, one or both of them were killed.
We've only just seen a young, bright racer killed, and his accident was no one's fault. We surely don't want to see another accident because a racer forces another one of the track.
Yes I love close racing but this is taking racing into a new dangerous era!!!
768 said:
You're right, LeClerc should never be allowed to race again.
That's just daft!!There are rules and boundaries in racing, when you step over them, there should be repercussions and a black and white flag after already weaving under braking. Both Vettel and Stroll were punished for a dangerous manoeuvre why CLC???
I berate the lack of perceived danger in F1, it's supposed to be a 'gladiator' sport involving not just skill, but bravery.
The current application of the rules troubles me, though. The drivers are being given the impression that elbows out driving is not.just being tolerated, but perhaps encouraged.
In tin tops, we're used to seeing contact between cars that results in race ending crashes. It, debatably, adds to the spectacle. Even so, in these much slower and fully enclosed cars, we see injuries.
In F1, the kinetic energies involved are massive. The panning camera angles of cars steaming in the same direction conspire to hide the true velocity and power. You only have to look at the race car being launched off the sausage kerb earlier in the weekend to see how violent a lower speed than F1 crash can be, without any other participant intervention.
The search for spectacle saw Leclerc avoid a penalty on Sunday for crowding Hamilton off the track. Putting all sporting rivalries or support aside, had those cars tangled wheels at that point, rather than Hamilton taking to the grass, the resultant crash could have been enormous. All bets are off as to which way up either car would have been when they came to a halt.
Hamilton suggested after the race that, had there not been a championship at stake, he may not have moved away. Without wishing to cast doubt on his honesty, I could also imagine an older, wiser and pragmatic racing driver.in Hamilton not fancying flying through the air at 100mph+ to discover what the Monza gravel tastes like.
We all want titillating, to see man and machine challenged and at risk, however we all want to see the actors go home safe at the end of the race. I fear that, armed with these steward's decisions, race drivers will do what race drivers do, and take the mile when offered an inch. It won't be their fault, and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll have to wait long for a negative response to last weekend.
The current application of the rules troubles me, though. The drivers are being given the impression that elbows out driving is not.just being tolerated, but perhaps encouraged.
In tin tops, we're used to seeing contact between cars that results in race ending crashes. It, debatably, adds to the spectacle. Even so, in these much slower and fully enclosed cars, we see injuries.
In F1, the kinetic energies involved are massive. The panning camera angles of cars steaming in the same direction conspire to hide the true velocity and power. You only have to look at the race car being launched off the sausage kerb earlier in the weekend to see how violent a lower speed than F1 crash can be, without any other participant intervention.
The search for spectacle saw Leclerc avoid a penalty on Sunday for crowding Hamilton off the track. Putting all sporting rivalries or support aside, had those cars tangled wheels at that point, rather than Hamilton taking to the grass, the resultant crash could have been enormous. All bets are off as to which way up either car would have been when they came to a halt.
Hamilton suggested after the race that, had there not been a championship at stake, he may not have moved away. Without wishing to cast doubt on his honesty, I could also imagine an older, wiser and pragmatic racing driver.in Hamilton not fancying flying through the air at 100mph+ to discover what the Monza gravel tastes like.
We all want titillating, to see man and machine challenged and at risk, however we all want to see the actors go home safe at the end of the race. I fear that, armed with these steward's decisions, race drivers will do what race drivers do, and take the mile when offered an inch. It won't be their fault, and I hope I'm wrong, but I don't think we'll have to wait long for a negative response to last weekend.
M4CK 1 said:
What, like stock car racing???
No, like all UK and European single seater, sportscar and saloon car racing...which has been in place for decades and has worked perfectly wellhttps://www.motorsportuk.org/assets/273-292specifi...
M4CK 1 said:
37chevy said:
It’s doing nothing of the sort. It’s using a tried and tested method for penalising drivers used in hundreds of series worldwide from club racing to world championship level Motorsport
What, like stock car racing??? The back and white flag is for a misdemeanor not a blatant act of dangerous driving.
Michael Masi took on it himself to class this incident as a misdemeanor and not pass to the Stewards when CLC had already dangerously weaved underbraking!!
The trouble is that the goal posts seem to be constantly changing. For example, it wasn’t long ago the the “Verstappen” rule was applied after Max was called out for moving under braking.
I find it disturbing that drivers are now saying “so that’s how it is then” after each race.
Charles should have been penalised at Monza according to pre existing precident . I’m happy for him to have won but do it within the rules. What rules though? Whatever rule applies at the time?
I find it disturbing that drivers are now saying “so that’s how it is then” after each race.
Charles should have been penalised at Monza according to pre existing precident . I’m happy for him to have won but do it within the rules. What rules though? Whatever rule applies at the time?
M4CK 1 said:
There's nothing in those rules to say it's OK to force somebody off the track in fact it says its strictly forbidden!!
The back and white flag is for a misdemeanor not a blatant act of dangerous driving.
Michael Masi took on it himself to class this incident as a misdemeanor and not pass to the Stewards when CLC had already dangerously weaved underbraking!!
Go check the sporting regs then. But given he’s in charge, has multiple camera angles, sensor readouts and has fully explained the stewards position I guess he’s in a far better position to assess the situation than you or me. The back and white flag is for a misdemeanor not a blatant act of dangerous driving.
Michael Masi took on it himself to class this incident as a misdemeanor and not pass to the Stewards when CLC had already dangerously weaved underbraking!!
M3ax said:
The trouble is that the goal posts seem to be constantly changing. For example, it wasn’t long ago the the “Verstappen” rule was applied after Max was called out for moving under braking.
I find it disturbing that drivers are now saying “so that’s how it is then” after each race.
Charles should have been penalised at Monza according to pre existing precident . I’m happy for him to have won but do it within the rules. What rules though? Whatever rule applies at the time?
Again as explained by masi this change in attitude was requested by drivers and teams. You can use presidents to a certain extent but when you change the approach, new presidents need to be set, which was done in AustriaI find it disturbing that drivers are now saying “so that’s how it is then” after each race.
Charles should have been penalised at Monza according to pre existing precident . I’m happy for him to have won but do it within the rules. What rules though? Whatever rule applies at the time?
37chevy said:
Again as explained by masi this change in attitude was requested by drivers and teams. You can use presidents to a certain extent but when you change the approach, new presidents need to be set, which was done in Austria
What's trump got to do with it? What new president - putin, perhaps? 37chevy said:
M4CK 1 said:
There's nothing in those rules to say it's OK to force somebody off the track in fact it says its strictly forbidden!!
The back and white flag is for a misdemeanor not a blatant act of dangerous driving.
Michael Masi took on it himself to class this incident as a misdemeanor and not pass to the Stewards when CLC had already dangerously weaved underbraking!!
Go check the sporting regs then. But given he’sain charge, has multiple camera angles, sensor readouts and has fully explained the stewards position I guess he’s in a far better position to assess the situation than you or me. The back and white flag is for a misdemeanor not a blatant act of dangerous driving.
Michael Masi took on it himself to class this incident as a misdemeanor and not pass to the Stewards when CLC had already dangerously weaved underbraking!!
ash73 said:
Superb skills, Charles is single-handedly making F1 worth watching again.
It's certainly not single-handed. What about Hungary where we had a fantastic race between Lewis and Max?I am delighted CLC looks so good though, as once the best, Lewis, retires, there will someone around to ensure Max does not have it all his own way.
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