'Let Them Race' - Changes in Race Stewarding Philosophy

[IforB]

Kraken said:

Not convinced over this "car width" business. Many a time in club racing I've been on the outside and ended up running through the gravel etc as the other car takes the full width. The couple of times I've mentioned this to race officials the line has been "you've got a brake pedal use it".

I would have thought the driver coach would be much more concerned with what happens in BTCC and WTCR to be honest.

Not if he's dealing with single seater racing rather than tin-top.

Then there's also the fact that the world and their dog watch F1, whereas BTCC and WTCR are a bit more niche.

All the kids in lower level single seaters want to be in F1. They aren't looking at BTCC as where they want to be.

[VladD]

C2996 said:

If they stick to these new black and white flag rules, it affectively means each driver can force another car off the road, ONCE and get away with it. Looking forward to the carnage when someone gets near magnussen

..and of course if you've had a clean race, you can play your joker on the last lap knowing that you'll get away with it.

[turbobloke]

VladD said:

C2996 said:

If they stick to these new black and white flag rules, it affectively means each driver can force another car off the road, ONCE and get away with it. Looking forward to the carnage when someone gets near magnussen

..and of course if you've had a clean race, you can play your joker on the last lap knowing that you'll get away with it.

Hamilton said something in an interview to the effect of "righto it's good to know" which might be translated as "watch this space".

[Kraken]

IforB said:

Not if he's dealing with single seater racing rather than tin-top.

Then there's also the fact that the world and their dog watch F1, whereas BTCC and WTCR are a bit more niche.

All the kids in lower level single seaters want to be in F1. They aren't looking at BTCC as where they want to be.

If they're not watching every bit of racing they can get their eyes on then they are missing out massively. I know many kids from karting who have moved into various forms of racing, some at a very high level. All of them devoured every bit of on screen action whether it was BTCC, F3, DTM, IndyCar, Super GT etc etc.

[IforB]

Kraken said:

If they're not watching every bit of racing they can get their eyes on then they are missing out massively. I know many kids from karting who have moved into various forms of racing, some at a very high level. All of them devoured every bit of on screen action whether it was BTCC, F3, DTM, IndyCar, Super GT etc etc.

I'm sure they are. I have no knowledge of what every junior racer does when they are out of the car. I suspect they get obsessed with it.

There is a big difference though in how all series police rules and much of that is down to the ability of the cars to absorb the punishment. When you have NASCAR and the old "Rubbin' is Racin'" mindset, or the BTCC which much of the time is akin to bumper cars, then things are different compared to flighty, easily damaged aerodynamic wonders moving at speeds that no tin-top could ever hope to achieve.

[confucuis]

I think with the Leclerc move on Hamilton you have to go back to Austria.

Verstappen forced Leclerc off the track for the race win. That has set a precedent now for Leclerc that he will be extremely aggressive in both attack and defense.

Having watched the Monza incident multiple times, in my opinion Leclerc doesn't force Hamilton off the circuit.


That screenshot if directly after Leclerc "forced Hamilton off", I think the stewards made the correct decision.

[Andy S15]

confucuis said:

I think with the Leclerc move on Hamilton you have to go back to Austria.

No, we really need to stop making this comparison.

There is an enormous difference (both in reality and the rulebook) between this happening at corner entrance and corner exit. Squeezing off at entry is forcing a driver to make adjustments while already at the limits of adhesion, which has a high risk of causing an accident. Squeezing at corner exit is a matter of keeping your foot in it or not and is wholly avoidable.

[angrymoby]

Andy S15 said:

No, we really need to stop making this comparison.

There is an enormous difference (both in reality and the rulebook) between this happening at corner entrance and corner exit. Squeezing off at entry is forcing a driver to make adjustments while already at the limits of adhesion, which has a high risk of causing an accident. Squeezing at corner exit is a matter of keeping your foot in it or not and is wholly avoidable.

folk just don't get it Andy ...& folk just don't seem to understand that these guys are on/over the limit of adhesion going through a corner & exit, so if you're going to go round the outside of an exit, you've got to expect that the guy on the inside might not be in full control (which is why EVERYONE gets the benefit of the doubt when they punt someone off at a corner exit)

[kiseca]

Andy S15 said:

confucuis said:

I think with the Leclerc move on Hamilton you have to go back to Austria.

No, we really need to stop making this comparison.

There is an enormous difference (both in reality and the rulebook) between this happening at corner entrance and corner exit. Squeezing off at entry is forcing a driver to make adjustments while already at the limits of adhesion, which has a high risk of causing an accident. Squeezing at corner exit is a matter of keeping your foot in it or not and is wholly avoidable.

Depends where the driver is whether just lifting off will be enough. they may have to actually brake, in which case, with them being on the limit just like the guy on the inside apparently is, they will risk spinning off the circuit.

As for the difference between contact at corner entrance and exit... Webber's crash at Valencia shows the dangers of the car in front blocking the car behind (completely accidentally in this case and not even in a braking zone) and Webber hit at the wrong angle and was launched into the air. Fortunately he hit nothing too solid, stayed within the track limits and runoff, and walked away.

Gilles Villeneuve tried to go around the outside of another car on a corner exit. The other driver blocked him - again entirely accidentally - was expecting Gilles to go inside I think - but motivation or intent doesn't matter. The contact here also launched Gilles's car, in this case with terrible consequences.

I know it's harder to avoid under braking where the car is going to be very intolerant of sudden steering inputs, but it's open wheel racing. Whether going into a corner, coming out of a corner, or whistling down a straight, cars touching wheels brings a risk of launching a car, and that's the highest risk scenario even in a modern, composite, crash tested, halo'd car. Safety has come on a long way since Gilles's time but still, an airborne car carries a large risk of hitting just the wrong solid object. Or marshall's post. Or spectators.

So no. If a driver knows that another car is alongside and intentionally squeezes him so much that the other driver has only the options of collide or leave the circuit, it's a safety concern IMO.

[HardtopManual]

Question for people who think the lead driver should always leave room at corner exit if there's a hint of overlap. Whose fault was it that George Russell ended up in the wall in Singapore?

[Andy S15]

HardtopManual said:

Question for people who think the lead driver should always leave room at corner exit if there's a hint of overlap. Whose fault was it that George Russell ended up in the wall in Singapore?

I put a decent portion of the blame on Grosjean here, watch replays closely and you'll see he gets a kick of oversteer at corner exit which then pivots his front wheels directly into Russel. However, Russel did not leave a whole lot of margin for error, although he did just about leave a cars width.

Also, although Grosjean was slightly ahead into the braking zone, Russel was clearly ahead at the apex so the corner was technically 'his' but Grosjean still had the right to be there as he was significantly alongside. Grosjean also had quite a lot of room left before the wall, so he could have been wider.

Racing incident, with a lean towards Grosjean. Russel could have been shallower, Grosjean could have been wider. Grosjean could have also yielded as he was always going to end up being squeezed into the wall. Add the oversteer and it's a done deal.

[kiseca]

Andy S15 said:

I put a decent portion of the blame on Grosjean here, watch replays closely and you'll see he gets a kick of oversteer at corner exit which then pivots his front wheels directly into Russel. However, Russel did not leave a whole lot of margin for error, although he did just about leave a cars width.

Also, although Grosjean was slightly ahead into the braking zone, Russel was clearly ahead at the apex so the corner was technically 'his' but Grosjean still had the right to be there as he was significantly alongside. Grosjean also had quite a lot of room left before the wall, so he could have been wider.

Racing incident, with a lean towards Grosjean. Russel could have been shallower, Grosjean could have been wider. Grosjean could have also yielded as he was always going to end up being squeezed into the wall. Add the oversteer and it's a done deal.

I agree with that. Grosjean got a nose ahead so Russell knew he was there. Then Grosjean did appear to be trying to back out of the move but he's also on the limit so can't just slam on the anchors. Russell also did look like he was trying to give him room but it wasn't quite enough in the end.

I can't see what else Grosjean could have done apart from not take the outside line in the first place, and if that's the answer then everyone just needs to take the inside line whenever someone's behind them and they can never get overtaken. In the past we'd see the outside person be able to cut inside the leading driver on the exit and get better drive up the next straight but I don't recall seeing such an overtake in quite a long time, don't know why.

Regardless, Grosjean managed to put his car there, reality then for Russell is to leave enough room at the exit for him or risk a crash and being out of the race. Unless you want a rule that says even though Grosjean is able to get his car fully alongside his competitor in that scenario, and try gain a position, he's not allowed to.

[HardtopManual]

This is the moment of impact. How anyone could attach any blame to GR is beyond me. Should the lead driver perhaps leave two car widths in case his opponent, rather than lifting, defeated, floors the throttle before they've finished rotating the car?

[kiseca]

HardtopManual said:

This is the moment of impact. How anyone could attach any blame to GR is beyond me. Should the lead driver perhaps leave two car widths in case his opponent, rather than lifting, defeated, floors the throttle before they've finished rotating the car?

No, nobody's said 2 car widths. Just one.

[HardtopManual]

But you think GR shares some of the blame and didn't leave enough margin. Given that he clearly left almost 2 car widths, how much margin should he have left?

[anonymous-user]

HardtopManual said:

But you think GR shares some of the blame and didn't leave enough margin. Given that he clearly left almost 2 car widths, how much margin should he have left?

Grosjean would have hit him wherever Russell had been.

That’s what he does.

[ghost83]

Don’t see how Russell can be to blame grojean should have known it wouldn’t stick and switch back like others did

[LeoSayer]

Would the stewards have viewed that incident differently if it was fore the lead of the race, eg. between Hamilton and Leclerc?

[Kraken]

kiseca said:

Then Grosjean did appear to be trying to back out of the move but he's also on the limit so can't just slam on the anchors.

Don't need to slam the anchors on. Just a light lift of the throttle pedal will make a huge difference when the other car is accelerating.

[kiseca]

HardtopManual said:

But you think GR shares some of the blame and didn't leave enough margin. Given that he clearly left almost 2 car widths, how much margin should he have left?

You asked that already and I answered already.

I also agreed with Andy S15 who said already that Grosjean also had more room on his left, and another poster noted that Grosjean was dealing with some oversteer and probably didn't have a lot of choice which line he chose.