Race car hire- feasible?
Discussion
Evening all, looking ideally for some feedback on someone who’s tried out hiring out their race car before- or anyone who is looking to arrive & drive as their method of getting on track.
The question is raised by an errant listing on racecarsdirect.com that I opened by accident. It’s for a TVR Chimaera racer that was top of my want-list a matter of months ago but I couldn’t make the money make sense, instead I bought a Jaguar saloon which I race with the CSCC/JEC Saloons & GTs, already won its class twice and it’s a great car. Well now the TVR is listed at a different price, which suddenly makes a lot of sense indeed.
If I was to buy the TVR I would hit the Dunlop TVR Challenge, and be loving life running two great cars in two great enthusiasts series. But- I would have two race cars sat dormant for large periods of the year, it would make sense to hire them out. I’ve already invested in the kit to run a race car, have a great rig for transporting and fettling the car as well as providing accommodation for the weekend. I’ve done a bit of research and the going rate for arrive & drives for similar cars/series would easily cover my running costs, as my setup would be pretty low-fi and down to earth I’ve a lot of margin to compensate for not providing superstar service as an established team might.
My concern is- every weekend the cars aren’t out racing, they’re not earning. Is the market there? Especially with the Jag and TVR being a bit niche. If I’m going to make a go of it I know of a good MGZR for sale which I’d also snap up to keep things rolling on weekends where the big brutes aren’t out. Attracting drivers is my main concern and my big question, below is a summary of the series I’d be marketing at. I’d love to know, would these be attractive? I’ve included the CCRC series as I’m only down the road from Combe. I’d aim for the costs to cover my overheads plus some change for my time, and like to think I could undercut the going rate for a car run by a large team- with no bones made about the fact it won’t be the same level of service; I just don’t have the facilities to provide what a full team would. Putting a driver in a race car which I’ll transport, keep going and repair, and putting him up for the weekend in heated accommodation with catering facilities, that’s the long and short of it.
TVR Chimaera 4.0- DTEC, CSCC Modern Classics, Castle Combe GT
Jaguar XJ40 4.0- JEC S>s, CSCC Future Classics, Project 8 Saloons, Castle Combe Saloons
MGZR170- MG Trophy, CSCC Tin Tops, (any number of hot hatch series), Castle Combe Hot Hatches
Marketing would be largely Facebook, word of mouth and hopefully a bit of club exposure when I’m racing (but working towards a well produced website if it gets off the ground). So the first question is whether I could keep a consistent cycle of hires going, the second is insurance- what would be the most efficient basis to insure, and how much would this likely add to a race weekend? And failing that, could I self insure on an excess/deposit basis?
I understand wear & tear on the cars to also be an expense. Apart from the TVR in DTEC (which to be honest I’d probably race myself), tyres would be MSA list road tyres some of which I get a bit of a discount on, I’m comfortable with this expense. In terms of mechanicals, I assume a contract clause for driver-induced failures is appropriate? Has anyone ever had problems trying to recoup costs from a driver who’s battered one of their cars? One of the big attractions of running these three cars is that they run relatively ubiquitous engines in fairly standard fettle, the RV8, AJ6 and K series respectively. Should an engine failure occur, I think getting the car back together as it was shouldn’t be too challenging or expensive.
Am I living in dreamland here? I have no idea! If it keeps me racing, playing with big boys toys and works towards earning back my initial investment then it’ll be all I could have hoped for. It’ll be run outside of a full time job so doesn’t need to pay me a salary! I can enlist help at short notice when work doesn’t allow me the time required. Anyone who can advise, whether you’ve hired cars out yourself, or you’re a budding racer with some feedback on whether it would be attractive to you, it’s appreciated. Also, if you’re in and about club racing, if you give me a fair assessment of what you’d be willing to pay for any of the drives listed above, it’ll help my man maths out and earn you a virtual beer
The question is raised by an errant listing on racecarsdirect.com that I opened by accident. It’s for a TVR Chimaera racer that was top of my want-list a matter of months ago but I couldn’t make the money make sense, instead I bought a Jaguar saloon which I race with the CSCC/JEC Saloons & GTs, already won its class twice and it’s a great car. Well now the TVR is listed at a different price, which suddenly makes a lot of sense indeed.
If I was to buy the TVR I would hit the Dunlop TVR Challenge, and be loving life running two great cars in two great enthusiasts series. But- I would have two race cars sat dormant for large periods of the year, it would make sense to hire them out. I’ve already invested in the kit to run a race car, have a great rig for transporting and fettling the car as well as providing accommodation for the weekend. I’ve done a bit of research and the going rate for arrive & drives for similar cars/series would easily cover my running costs, as my setup would be pretty low-fi and down to earth I’ve a lot of margin to compensate for not providing superstar service as an established team might.
My concern is- every weekend the cars aren’t out racing, they’re not earning. Is the market there? Especially with the Jag and TVR being a bit niche. If I’m going to make a go of it I know of a good MGZR for sale which I’d also snap up to keep things rolling on weekends where the big brutes aren’t out. Attracting drivers is my main concern and my big question, below is a summary of the series I’d be marketing at. I’d love to know, would these be attractive? I’ve included the CCRC series as I’m only down the road from Combe. I’d aim for the costs to cover my overheads plus some change for my time, and like to think I could undercut the going rate for a car run by a large team- with no bones made about the fact it won’t be the same level of service; I just don’t have the facilities to provide what a full team would. Putting a driver in a race car which I’ll transport, keep going and repair, and putting him up for the weekend in heated accommodation with catering facilities, that’s the long and short of it.
TVR Chimaera 4.0- DTEC, CSCC Modern Classics, Castle Combe GT
Jaguar XJ40 4.0- JEC S>s, CSCC Future Classics, Project 8 Saloons, Castle Combe Saloons
MGZR170- MG Trophy, CSCC Tin Tops, (any number of hot hatch series), Castle Combe Hot Hatches
Marketing would be largely Facebook, word of mouth and hopefully a bit of club exposure when I’m racing (but working towards a well produced website if it gets off the ground). So the first question is whether I could keep a consistent cycle of hires going, the second is insurance- what would be the most efficient basis to insure, and how much would this likely add to a race weekend? And failing that, could I self insure on an excess/deposit basis?
I understand wear & tear on the cars to also be an expense. Apart from the TVR in DTEC (which to be honest I’d probably race myself), tyres would be MSA list road tyres some of which I get a bit of a discount on, I’m comfortable with this expense. In terms of mechanicals, I assume a contract clause for driver-induced failures is appropriate? Has anyone ever had problems trying to recoup costs from a driver who’s battered one of their cars? One of the big attractions of running these three cars is that they run relatively ubiquitous engines in fairly standard fettle, the RV8, AJ6 and K series respectively. Should an engine failure occur, I think getting the car back together as it was shouldn’t be too challenging or expensive.
Am I living in dreamland here? I have no idea! If it keeps me racing, playing with big boys toys and works towards earning back my initial investment then it’ll be all I could have hoped for. It’ll be run outside of a full time job so doesn’t need to pay me a salary! I can enlist help at short notice when work doesn’t allow me the time required. Anyone who can advise, whether you’ve hired cars out yourself, or you’re a budding racer with some feedback on whether it would be attractive to you, it’s appreciated. Also, if you’re in and about club racing, if you give me a fair assessment of what you’d be willing to pay for any of the drives listed above, it’ll help my man maths out and earn you a virtual beer
Biggest issue is always damage and insurance. Insurance is expensive and has large excess and doesn't cover mechanical damage.
what do you do when and engine lets go in qually and the driver doesn't want to pay for it and wants his money back for the race they didnt do? did the motor let go because it was tired or did they over rev it.
Tyres are also an issue as they dont have a great shelf life. and a set of slicks can cost over a grand. and one lockup can bugger them
I got caught out once as I had a car hired out for a good few races, so invested a chunk of change in some upgrades for it as they were covered by the hire..
Driver then stuffed it big time in his first test day. he paid for the damage but then didnt do the 4 races so i had to fund the upgrades out of my own race budget.
Hiring cars out can work great but then it doesnt it can cost you... I'd always make sure any hire car has data logging and video
1) So you can tutor the driver
2) So you can see what they are up to and point out when they over rev the thing lol
what do you do when and engine lets go in qually and the driver doesn't want to pay for it and wants his money back for the race they didnt do? did the motor let go because it was tired or did they over rev it.
Tyres are also an issue as they dont have a great shelf life. and a set of slicks can cost over a grand. and one lockup can bugger them
I got caught out once as I had a car hired out for a good few races, so invested a chunk of change in some upgrades for it as they were covered by the hire..
Driver then stuffed it big time in his first test day. he paid for the damage but then didnt do the 4 races so i had to fund the upgrades out of my own race budget.
Hiring cars out can work great but then it doesnt it can cost you... I'd always make sure any hire car has data logging and video
1) So you can tutor the driver
2) So you can see what they are up to and point out when they over rev the thing lol
I think you are talking about becoming an arrive and drive race team (perhaps albeit a modest one).
I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. I've seen it go wrong on several occasions and it's hugely painful when it does. The previous poster has got it. From the hirer not wanting to pay because they couldn't start the race as the starter motor or gear linkage or throttle cable failed to the engine going pop to the crash that was someone else's fault. And you know, if it can go wrong it will.
Bert
I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. I've seen it go wrong on several occasions and it's hugely painful when it does. The previous poster has got it. From the hirer not wanting to pay because they couldn't start the race as the starter motor or gear linkage or throttle cable failed to the engine going pop to the crash that was someone else's fault. And you know, if it can go wrong it will.
Bert
Having had a F3 car which was rented out, I can see that there will be quite a lot of work and time for ultimately little reward.
Insurance - insurance is expensive, has a high excess and generally covers accident damage.
Mechanical breakages - how to assess who is at fault. Our F3 car had professional level datalogging, so could revisit a session and plot pretty much everything from oil and water pressures to injector firing. On board cameras can help decide what happened - missed gearshift etc.,
Also you need to think how to indemnify yourself should something terrible happen which the driver or their family decides to pursue via legal channels, and whether a signed disclaimer by the driver would stand up under scrutiny of expensive lawyers in shiny suits.
Anyway, we worked out a rental price assuming a fairly standard between races prep session, assumption that some parts will need replacing through natural wear and tear, an element to cover depreciation of the car, a contribution to an expensive engine rebuild. Costs such as transport, fuel and tyres easier to work out.
Insurance - insurance is expensive, has a high excess and generally covers accident damage.
Mechanical breakages - how to assess who is at fault. Our F3 car had professional level datalogging, so could revisit a session and plot pretty much everything from oil and water pressures to injector firing. On board cameras can help decide what happened - missed gearshift etc.,
Also you need to think how to indemnify yourself should something terrible happen which the driver or their family decides to pursue via legal channels, and whether a signed disclaimer by the driver would stand up under scrutiny of expensive lawyers in shiny suits.
Anyway, we worked out a rental price assuming a fairly standard between races prep session, assumption that some parts will need replacing through natural wear and tear, an element to cover depreciation of the car, a contribution to an expensive engine rebuild. Costs such as transport, fuel and tyres easier to work out.
Yep. The problem is exacerbated by the nature of the thing. Usually an inexperienced driver. Usually an inexperienced driver unfamiliar with the category and car question. Inexperienced driver, unfamiliar category, unfamiliar car and a need for it to be right from the get go. No advanced testing, no building up to it, no second chances, got to be right first time.
It might be better with a driver who is committed to it longer term, say for a season. Then they familiarise themselves with pre-season testing etc. Also an experienced or pro driver will be much better than first or second timers.
Bert
It might be better with a driver who is committed to it longer term, say for a season. Then they familiarise themselves with pre-season testing etc. Also an experienced or pro driver will be much better than first or second timers.
Bert
Having rented a few race cars over the years and also rented/loaned out some of mine- it really can be a minefield
I think it works better buying a car that you can do endurance races with and share the costs with other drivers - it makes Spa 6 hours/Oldtimer GP (if you like pre 66 cars) much more affordable plus no shortage of co-drivers
Series that have a 2 driver format also work well and generally it’s much easier to get a co-driver for the season that way
If you really wanted to rent a car then I would look at something that is “cheap” to fix and is eligible for lots of series - say Formula Ford or F Junior
My own experience is that renting cars out is a total pain whereas sharing cars has been great fun
I think it works better buying a car that you can do endurance races with and share the costs with other drivers - it makes Spa 6 hours/Oldtimer GP (if you like pre 66 cars) much more affordable plus no shortage of co-drivers
Series that have a 2 driver format also work well and generally it’s much easier to get a co-driver for the season that way
If you really wanted to rent a car then I would look at something that is “cheap” to fix and is eligible for lots of series - say Formula Ford or F Junior
My own experience is that renting cars out is a total pain whereas sharing cars has been great fun
Yes absolute minefield.
Especially catering at the cheaper end of the market, where the budget doesn't stretch as far, implies that some maintenance gets stretched.
One time we had a driver shear a driveshaft. It was during the start of the race exactly when you are dumping all the power through it.
The driver said why aren't you changing driveshafts after every race weekend, that's what they do in proper F3. We replied that we were working on a budget that was 5% of what the British F3 budget would be. We could change them frequently but the cost of competing would increase accordingly.
Especially catering at the cheaper end of the market, where the budget doesn't stretch as far, implies that some maintenance gets stretched.
One time we had a driver shear a driveshaft. It was during the start of the race exactly when you are dumping all the power through it.
The driver said why aren't you changing driveshafts after every race weekend, that's what they do in proper F3. We replied that we were working on a budget that was 5% of what the British F3 budget would be. We could change them frequently but the cost of competing would increase accordingly.
Concerning insurance.
You can either pay one of the motorsport insurance companies. For our type of car they were charging circa £ 1k per meeting with period insured for Friday through to Sunday. There was a £ 2k - £ 3k excess per time, so for minor things, no point claiming. How much over the excess does it go before its worth claiming, knowing that it may increase the next premium?
The premium you don't get back. So it you have a clean driver and 10 meetings per year thats £ 10k you won't get back. If you put that premium into your own savings account, by the end of the year you have £ 10k.
I know several drivers who rent cars. They don't bother with insurance, but at the beginning of the meeting they hand over a cheque for the agreed value of the car. At the end of the meeting it gets handed back assuming that the car is still in one piece. There is the possibility that at the end of a weekend they become the proud owners of a pile of scrap, but they've not had to worry about that yet - ie they're taking the risk by buying the car.
You can either pay one of the motorsport insurance companies. For our type of car they were charging circa £ 1k per meeting with period insured for Friday through to Sunday. There was a £ 2k - £ 3k excess per time, so for minor things, no point claiming. How much over the excess does it go before its worth claiming, knowing that it may increase the next premium?
The premium you don't get back. So it you have a clean driver and 10 meetings per year thats £ 10k you won't get back. If you put that premium into your own savings account, by the end of the year you have £ 10k.
I know several drivers who rent cars. They don't bother with insurance, but at the beginning of the meeting they hand over a cheque for the agreed value of the car. At the end of the meeting it gets handed back assuming that the car is still in one piece. There is the possibility that at the end of a weekend they become the proud owners of a pile of scrap, but they've not had to worry about that yet - ie they're taking the risk by buying the car.
Did arrive and drive last season - great fun but you need the hirer and hired to be on the same page. I went with a great guy who never asked for a deposit. At the end of the season my accident damage came to £3800, met him for a coffee and handed over the cash.
As a previous poster said, why not buddy up with a few drivers for a season and if it pans out then progress onto offering Arrive/drive packages.
Might even be interested myself. The jag sounds like fun.
Try a few track days over the winter so you can gauge popularity etc.
As a previous poster said, why not buddy up with a few drivers for a season and if it pans out then progress onto offering Arrive/drive packages.
Might even be interested myself. The jag sounds like fun.
Try a few track days over the winter so you can gauge popularity etc.
It sounds like the OP isn't really looking to turn this into a business - more to cover his own racing costs and get him out at tracks more often, if I understand correctly?
Whilst most of the comments here have been well meaning "don't do its" taking a wonder around any paddock and you'll see plenty of people who do somehow make this work.
Regarding the costs, there are risks on both sides - either expensive damage is caused by the driver and they don't pay, or, the driver pays for a drive and for some reason, nothing to do with them, they don't get to race.
This comes down to setting expectations but mostly about finding the right drivers imho.
The OP mentions marketing and whether there is a market for this. I personally feel there is but the focus shouldn't really be able the cars and insurance costs but more about finding the right drivers.
With the right drivers (i.e. well resourced, fair minded etc) then you can be clear about setting terms of engagement that are fair for all and just focus on the racing.
The idea of sharing drives might well be a good route to finding good drivers - of course, if they end up faster than you then clearly that is potentially the biggest issue here
Whilst most of the comments here have been well meaning "don't do its" taking a wonder around any paddock and you'll see plenty of people who do somehow make this work.
Regarding the costs, there are risks on both sides - either expensive damage is caused by the driver and they don't pay, or, the driver pays for a drive and for some reason, nothing to do with them, they don't get to race.
This comes down to setting expectations but mostly about finding the right drivers imho.
The OP mentions marketing and whether there is a market for this. I personally feel there is but the focus shouldn't really be able the cars and insurance costs but more about finding the right drivers.
With the right drivers (i.e. well resourced, fair minded etc) then you can be clear about setting terms of engagement that are fair for all and just focus on the racing.
The idea of sharing drives might well be a good route to finding good drivers - of course, if they end up faster than you then clearly that is potentially the biggest issue here
CanoeSniffer said:
Has anyone ever had problems trying to recoup costs from a driver who’s battered one of their cars?
Just re-reading the OP and this made me chuckle! The very fact you've asked that question tells me you are far too nice a person to do this!Racing is littered with bandits, crooks, rip-off merchants, wannabes, people addicted to racing with no money, guys with misguided ideas, people who run out of cash and on and on!
However the poster above makes a good point. On a small time basis with a sensible, financially viable, nice driver it could work!
Bert
PS don't forget to tell HMRC about your new-found extra income
The key phrase I saw from the OP was "every weekend the cars aren’t out racing, they’re not earning".
If they're not earning, that means covering costs at least otherwise what is the point of having someone else wear out your racing car for you. Depreciation due to use, wear and tear and contribution towards rebuilds are important things to consider.
As soon as someone exchanges money for something, expectations ramp up - they're paying money to hire a car and that also has knock on implications that need considering - total loss, legal action due to injury or worse. You can't live in a beaten up racing car if you've just been sued and lost your house.
If they're not earning, that means covering costs at least otherwise what is the point of having someone else wear out your racing car for you. Depreciation due to use, wear and tear and contribution towards rebuilds are important things to consider.
As soon as someone exchanges money for something, expectations ramp up - they're paying money to hire a car and that also has knock on implications that need considering - total loss, legal action due to injury or worse. You can't live in a beaten up racing car if you've just been sued and lost your house.
Thank you for the responses- no I’m definitely not expecting to make a living, just to cover my racing and to spend more of my time around motorsport.
I think I’m a bit too optimistic and have envisioned my market being sensible drivers who don’t think they’re Senna, just want to do it for the love of it and share the same passion for the cars as I do. In the cold light of day that’s probably very unrealistic!
More time around the paddock will probably give me a better idea, I’m still a newbie really and should earn more experience before making grand designs.
Plus I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t all really a man maths exercise to try and justify more toys
I think I’m a bit too optimistic and have envisioned my market being sensible drivers who don’t think they’re Senna, just want to do it for the love of it and share the same passion for the cars as I do. In the cold light of day that’s probably very unrealistic!
More time around the paddock will probably give me a better idea, I’m still a newbie really and should earn more experience before making grand designs.
Plus I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t all really a man maths exercise to try and justify more toys
I’ve got a couple of friends who do exactly what you describe with their cars, but only rent them to trusted people who are known to them and my friends always go along for the weekend (the only time that hasn’t happened is when I wanted to rent one of the cars for a race weekend and my friend couldn’t make it so I went alone)
It works for them and the rental system works for me. I’d potentially be interested in the system you propose as it’s how I’ve been racing already
It works for them and the rental system works for me. I’d potentially be interested in the system you propose as it’s how I’ve been racing already
When we were offering arrive and drive services, it worked out that if you planned to race for three seasons, the element of the price covering rental and the insurance we insisted upon to cover possible total loss, was more than buying the car in the first place, so we suggested to people looking to race for extended periods, to do a 1 meeting or 1 test day and then go out and buy the car, because at the end of the day they then own an asset.
Quite a number of people didn't have time / space / money / expertise to prep the car themselves, so were happy to turn up on the day with their helmet and boots, and to get into their car which they hadn't seen since the last meeting.
Quite a number of people didn't have time / space / money / expertise to prep the car themselves, so were happy to turn up on the day with their helmet and boots, and to get into their car which they hadn't seen since the last meeting.
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