The Official Japanese GP 2019 **Spoilers**

The Official Japanese GP 2019 **Spoilers**

Author
Discussion

Evangelion

6,433 posts

149 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
Take the stupid wings off completely and there'd be no weight to worry about. Plus we could get back to real downforce, ie the force of gravity. It was good enough for Moss and Fangio.

budgie smuggler

4,430 posts

130 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
My main problem with ‘let them race’ is that when modern F1 cars make any kind of contact, nine times out of ten there is damage to delicate and vulnerable bodywork components which then ruins that driver’s entire race. This could easily be addressed by the regs changes but it doesn’t look like it will.
yes

Some barely visible winglets get crunched and the car's lost 25% of its downforce.

Daston

5,767 posts

174 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
I have been watching a few indycar races this year and despite a fair bit of contact their wings seem to hold up better. Is this just due to the lack of smaller fiddly parts? Could a simple 1 or 2 part wing cut down on the amout of shards?

vaud

42,367 posts

126 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
Evangelion said:
Take the stupid wings off completely and there'd be no weight to worry about. Plus we could get back to real downforce, ie the force of gravity. It was good enough for Moss and Fangio.
Personally I am all for returning to a bias of mechanical grip vs aero, through it would be hard to outlaw all aero effects.

The challenge is that you would have to neuter every lower formula as well.

I wonder what a modern Maserati 250F would look like once increased safety was taken into account.

Andy S15

399 posts

98 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
budgie smuggler said:
yes

Some barely visible winglets get crunched and the car's lost 25% of its downforce.
Don't forget the plastic bag which cost Magnussen 4 seconds a lap in Singapore...

jsf

24,229 posts

207 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
vaud said:
Personally I am all for returning to a bias of mechanical grip vs aero, through it would be hard to outlaw all aero effects.

The challenge is that you would have to neuter every lower formula as well.

I wonder what a modern Maserati 250F would look like once increased safety was taken into account.
Nothing like a Maserati 250F

The Surveyor

7,471 posts

208 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
Hungrymc said:
...should have been a flag if the officials wanted him in, that’s what they’re there for.
Exactly. No backroom bullst on the radio or emails- use the flags, that's what they're for!!
There have been loads of situations where a car has been lightly damaged and not black-flagged, it happens all the time.

The end-plates on the front wings come off all the time and it's really not uncommon for a car to be seen with a small section of bodywork hanging off after an incident. Teams only bringing in the car if the performance is impeded rather for safety reason. I think Ferrari and CLC were fairly punished for the accident, but the punishment for driving with a small bit of bodywork hanging off feels very harsh IMHO

FourWheelDrift

83,153 posts

255 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
vaud said:
I wonder what a modern Maserati 250F would look like once increased safety was taken into account.
There was a modern version of a 250f style 1950s car manufactured in the 90s I think to be a one make classic race series. I remember seeing it in Autosport magazine being driven around Donington. I can't remember what they were called to find a photo of one but I think it had a big rollover hoop, much bigger than the ones added on the originals that race at Goodwood.

Edited to add, it was Formula Classic - https://online.handh.co.uk/m/lot-details/index/cat...

Edited by FourWheelDrift on Tuesday 15th October 14:27

DaveTheRave87

1,650 posts

60 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
Daston said:
I have been watching a few indycar races this year and despite a fair bit of contact their wings seem to hold up better. Is this just due to the lack of smaller fiddly parts? Could a simple 1 or 2 part wing cut down on the amout of shards?
It's more down to the fact that it's a spec chassis so Dallara can beef up those parts without worrying about the weight penalty.

There were plenty of bits falling off when IndyCar had multiple aerokit manufacturers.

Evangelion

6,433 posts

149 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
jsf said:
vaud said:
... I wonder what a modern Maserati 250F would look like once increased safety was taken into account.
Nothing like a Maserati 250F
After all, having the engine in front of you with your feet underneath it, and the prop shaft spinning away next to your seat is not the safest way to drive a 200mph monster on drum brakes and cart springs!




PS - don't forget the cloth helmets, alcohol fuel and hay bales.

dunc_sx

1,386 posts

168 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
Evangelion said:
Take the stupid wings off completely and there'd be no weight to worry about. Plus we could get back to real downforce, ie the force of gravity. It was good enough for Moss and Fangio.
Problem is it'd be slower than loads of other car championships (and bikes too) so they'd have to change the name from F1 as well to F (some other higher number).

Dunc.

vaud

42,367 posts

126 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
Evangelion said:
jsf said:
vaud said:
... I wonder what a modern Maserati 250F would look like once increased safety was taken into account.
Nothing like a Maserati 250F
After all, having the engine in front of you with your feet underneath it, and the prop shaft spinning away next to your seat is not the safest way to drive a 200mph monster on drum brakes and cart springs!

PS - don't forget the cloth helmets, alcohol fuel and hay bales.
I was meaning the spirit of no/minimal aero, sleek shapes, RWD, no assistance and minimalism rather than modernise a 250F per se. I worded it badly.

SturdyHSV

8,562 posts

138 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
thegreenhell said:
I don't think the weight or strength arguments hold up..
It appears we're at an impasse old boy, as I don't think your argument holds up either. Do you fancy a beer instead? beer

Exige77

6,508 posts

162 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
janesmith1950 said:
Hungrymc said:
...should have been a flag if the officials wanted him in, that’s what they’re there for.
Exactly. No backroom bullst on the radio or emails- use the flags, that's what they're for!!
There have been loads of situations where a car has been lightly damaged and not black-flagged, it happens all the time.

The end-plates on the front wings come off all the time and it's really not uncommon for a car to be seen with a small section of bodywork hanging off after an incident. Teams only bringing in the car if the performance is impeded rather for safety reason. I think Ferrari and CLC were fairly punished for the accident, but the punishment for driving with a small bit of bodywork hanging off feels very harsh IMHO
The result was that CLC’s punishment was losing 2 points for taking Max out (CLC took responsibility for it) and for dropping bits of car on the track some of which hit Hamilton’s car.

He was lucky I think.

It’s not really much of a punishment. He got of lightly.

The Surveyor

7,471 posts

208 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
Exige77 said:
The Surveyor said:
janesmith1950 said:
Hungrymc said:
...should have been a flag if the officials wanted him in, that’s what they’re there for.
Exactly. No backroom bullst on the radio or emails- use the flags, that's what they're for!!
There have been loads of situations where a car has been lightly damaged and not black-flagged, it happens all the time.

The end-plates on the front wings come off all the time and it's really not uncommon for a car to be seen with a small section of bodywork hanging off after an incident. Teams only bringing in the car if the performance is impeded rather for safety reason. I think Ferrari and CLC were fairly punished for the accident, but the punishment for driving with a small bit of bodywork hanging off feels very harsh IMHO
The result was that CLC’s punishment was losing 2 points for taking Max out (CLC took responsibility for it) and for dropping bits of car on the track some of which hit Hamilton’s car.

He was lucky I think.

It’s not really much of a punishment. He got of lightly.
He was certainly due a penalty for hitting Max, no question about that.

I'm really enjoying the resurgence of McLaren this year so was very annoyed that the bits off CLC's car blocked Lando's brake ducts forcing him to pit early, and I'm also not down-playing the risk to Lewis Hamilton, yet given other drivers have shed bodywork without punishment at all I don't see how it can be said he got off lightly. He got a 10 second penalty when most driver who have a coming together only to later see a small bit of bodywork come away get no punishment at all.

Exige77

6,508 posts

162 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
Exige77 said:
The Surveyor said:
janesmith1950 said:
Hungrymc said:
...should have been a flag if the officials wanted him in, that’s what they’re there for.
Exactly. No backroom bullst on the radio or emails- use the flags, that's what they're for!!
There have been loads of situations where a car has been lightly damaged and not black-flagged, it happens all the time.

The end-plates on the front wings come off all the time and it's really not uncommon for a car to be seen with a small section of bodywork hanging off after an incident. Teams only bringing in the car if the performance is impeded rather for safety reason. I think Ferrari and CLC were fairly punished for the accident, but the punishment for driving with a small bit of bodywork hanging off feels very harsh IMHO
The result was that CLC’s punishment was losing 2 points for taking Max out (CLC took responsibility for it) and for dropping bits of car on the track some of which hit Hamilton’s car.

He was lucky I think.

It’s not really much of a punishment. He got of lightly.
He was certainly due a penalty for hitting Max, no question about that.

I'm really enjoying the resurgence of McLaren this year so was very annoyed that the bits off CLC's car blocked Lando's brake ducts forcing him to pit early, and I'm also not down-playing the risk to Lewis Hamilton, yet given other drivers have shed bodywork without punishment at all I don't see how it can be said he got off lightly. He got a 10 second penalty when most driver who have a coming together only to later see a small bit of bodywork come away get no punishment at all.
The stewards did what they could by giving him a 5 + 10 secs penalty but the nett effect on CLC was -2 points.

That’s where I think he got of lightly.

Max didn’t get any points and other people’s races were interfered with.

Evangelion

6,433 posts

149 months

Tuesday 15th October 2019
quotequote all
Perhaps a more suitable punishment would have been to give his points to Max, like in snooker when you give points away - your opponent gets them.

rdjohn

5,103 posts

166 months

Wednesday 16th October 2019
quotequote all
Evangelion said:
Perhaps a more suitable punishment would have been to give his points to Max, like in snooker when you give points away - your opponent gets them.
At least the punishment would fit the crime.

However if it was a regular sanction, then teams would just retire the car to save engine life.

iandc

3,246 posts

177 months

Wednesday 16th October 2019
quotequote all
Evangelion said:
Perhaps a more suitable punishment would have been to give his points to Max, like in snooker when you give points away - your opponent gets them.
Interesting idea but no idea how it would work. If points at end of race the "guilty" driver would just retire but cannot work out points at time of incident. So I think a non-starter.

angrymoby

1,629 posts

149 months

Wednesday 16th October 2019
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
He was certainly due a penalty for hitting Max, no question about that.
he was 100% fault for hitting Max, but a penalty i'm not so sure (& the stewards weren't sure either) drivers don't really (they have a rough idea) know how much grip they have on the 1st lap until they get to the first corner ...& it's not like Max didn't have any room- he had half a track

Leclerc was certainly due a penalty for his ignoring of a race control instruction- he should have been warned, then black flagged- pretty simple, instead they let him race so as to not 'ruin' the spectacle & afaiaa hit him with biggest time penalty they could (10s) ...the extra 5s seemed to be tacked on (how many first lap incidents have been left to be dealt till after the race?)

I'm not sure when this 'don't ruin spectacle attitude crept in, but it's a fine line when it takes precedence over a: the rule book & b: safety

F1 isn't & shouldn't be WWE imho