Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?

[NewUsername]

paulguitar said:

NewUsername said:

paulguitar said:

GOATever said:

Some reasonable stuff.

I do have a question for the Schumacher supporters...

How much do you think his lack of morals on track detracts from his legacy and ranking amongst the greats?

Massively....

That's my view too, and to my mind sadly it also applies to Senna.

And I say that as someone who has this on the living room wall:

I think Senna had more of a sense of right and wrong than just blatant cheating like Shumacher......admittedly he almost seemed to use his off track charitable activities to balance his sometimes poor on track behaviour but i think he was much more complex than Schumacher and its less clear cut that he was 'cheating' where as with MS it was just like a spoiled kid because he was certainly going to lose ( ie MS vs DH 1994 for example )

[angrymoby]

NewUsername said:

I think Senna had more of a sense of right and wrong than just blatant cheating like Shumacher......admittedly he almost seemed to use his off track charitable activities to balance his sometimes poor on track behaviour but i think he was much more complex than Schumacher and its less clear cut that he was 'cheating' where as with MS it was just like a spoiled kid because he was certainly going to lose ( ie MS vs DH 1994 for example )

at least we agree on this

Senna was emotive & reactionary ...even if being on the receiving end of some injustice, was his perception & his alone

Schumacher was different ...very much pro-active when it came to his cheating

Hamilton is crap at cheating, from 'lie-gate' (he'd already told the press about what had actually happened) ...to Abu Dhabi 2016

Put either Senna or Schumacher in that Merc in that race & absolutely no way would Rosberg have ended up as champion

[paulguitar]

angrymoby said:

Put either Senna or Schumacher in that Merc in that race & absolutely no way would Rosberg have ended up as champion

I agree with you 100% and I think that is a massive compliment to Hamilton.

[NewUsername]

angrymoby said:

NewUsername said:

I think Senna had more of a sense of right and wrong than just blatant cheating like Shumacher......admittedly he almost seemed to use his off track charitable activities to balance his sometimes poor on track behaviour but i think he was much more complex than Schumacher and its less clear cut that he was 'cheating' where as with MS it was just like a spoiled kid because he was certainly going to lose ( ie MS vs DH 1994 for example )

Put either Senna or Schumacher in that Merc in that race & absolutely no way would Rosberg have ended up as champion

I think Hamilton has a 'weakness' where someone can get into his 'space' like NR, perhaps JB in 2011 and it eats away at him, hence the care Merc take in picking his team mates........I think other people thrive on that fight , Seb for instance vs mark Webber seemed to reach greater heights ( despite moaning whinging etc etc )

[kiseca]

paulguitar said:

GOATever said:

Some reasonable stuff.

I do have a question for the Schumacher supporters...

How much do you think his lack of morals on track detracts from his legacy and ranking amongst the greats?

If by supporter you mean "those who think Schumacher was better" then, well, in my rating his morals don't play into it.

The ambition or goal of most Formula 1 drivers is to win world driver's championships. On that basis, Schumacher is the most successful ever, and Hamilton is the equal of Fangio... probably for about another week.

For me, "great" is far more subjective and as the original post says, impossible to compare particularly between generations. I rate Schumacher as one of the all time best, and a great driver.

He joins Senna on my fairly short list of all-time-greats who I didn't like and didn't support. I am quite sure Verstappen will be joining that list before too long as well. I didn't like Schumacher because of his lack of morals. I felt he was the driver who least needed to cheat to succeed. But perhaps the things that made him so successful came part and parcel with a willingness to cheat, but whatever, while I didn't like him and didn't enjoy seeing him win, to me he was very clearly the most complete driver I had ever seen. Hence, one of the all time greats.

Hamilton always had something special. I dearly wanted him to win the championship in his first year, that would have been sensational, and in the first half of the season he was so consistent while being fast - unusual for a rookie. Since then I think he's shown vulnerabilities from time to time but his record for me marks him as one of the greats too. He's in my much larger list of great drivers that I do like and support.

[angrymoby]

sparta6 said:

Who knows - hanging around with Kimi ?

Some interesting bedtime reading for Lewis as he cruises to another WDC

https://www.planetf1.com/news/schumi-couldve-won-m...

interesting in what way? that Schumi could've won more if he'd been in the best car for more of his career?

what next from Eddie? ..."water is wet" shocker?

[kiseca]

sparta6 said:

kiseca said:

sparta6 said:

Sitting 2nd in the WDC, Bottas underscores how flattering and dominant the Brackley package is.

Where was he in 2017 and 2018 then?

Who knows - hanging around with Kimi ?

Some interesting bedtime reading for Lewis as he cruises to another WDC

https://www.planetf1.com/news/schumi-couldve-won-m...

You know.

There are two aspects to your post that show that your opinion is biased and not factual.

You're using Bottas's current performance to support your argument that Hamilton's success is down to the car.

1) Bottas's current performance isn't representative of his history in a Merc that Hamilton has won the championship twice in so far.

2) You're suggesting that Bottas isn't a particularly good driver but it doesn't matter because it's all down to the car. If that's the case, why wasn't he second in 2017 and 2018? Hamilton managed to win in that car. If it's all down to the car, how can you even judge Bottas's ability as a Formula 1 driver at all?

[sparta6]

kiseca said:

sparta6 said:

kiseca said:

sparta6 said:

Sitting 2nd in the WDC, Bottas underscores how flattering and dominant the Brackley package is.

Where was he in 2017 and 2018 then?

Who knows - hanging around with Kimi ?

Some interesting bedtime reading for Lewis as he cruises to another WDC

https://www.planetf1.com/news/schumi-couldve-won-m...

You know.

There are two aspects to your post that show that your opinion is biased and not factual.

You're using Bottas's current performance to support your argument that Hamilton's success is down to the car.

1) Bottas's current performance isn't representative of his history in a Merc that Hamilton has won the championship twice in so far.

2) You're suggesting that Bottas isn't a particularly good driver but it doesn't matter because it's all down to the car. If that's the case, why wasn't he second in 2017 and 2018? Hamilton managed to win in that car. If it's all down to the car, how can you even judge Bottas's ability as a Formula 1 driver at all?

It's simple.
Bottas has upped his game this year, but I still don't consider him a Top 6 driver.
He may have improved his own game by 2% which has made the difference in being runner up in WDC.

A close colleague of mine has helped several F1 drivers, and an improvement of just 1% can make a world of difference to the results.

[HTP99]

sparta6 said:

A close colleague of mine has helped several F1 drivers, and an improvement of just 1% can make a world of difference to the results.

What are his thoughts on Hamilton and his ability?

[Smollet]

NewUsername said:

I think Senna had more of a sense of right and wrong than just blatant cheating like Shumacher......admittedly he almost seemed to use his off track charitable activities to balance his sometimes poor on track behaviour but i think he was much more complex than Schumacher and its less clear cut that he was 'cheating' where as with MS it was just like a spoiled kid because he was certainly going to lose ( ie MS vs DH 1994 for example )

If Senna had been kicked out of F1 and stripped of his title for deliberately ramming Prost @ 150mph in order to win the title then I doubt Schumacher would’ve resorted to his dubious driving tactics.

[paulguitar]

Smollet said:

If Senna had been kicked out of F1 and stripped of his title for deliberately ramming Prost @ 150mph in order to win the title then I doubt Schumacher would’ve resorted to his dubious driving tactics.

Yes, that really should have been a line in the sand.

It's great actually to have had the Hamilton era where the driving has been generally pretty clean. Not so much from Seb though!

[TobyTR]

NewUsername said:

angrymoby said:

NewUsername said:

I think Senna had more of a sense of right and wrong than just blatant cheating like Shumacher......admittedly he almost seemed to use his off track charitable activities to balance his sometimes poor on track behaviour but i think he was much more complex than Schumacher and its less clear cut that he was 'cheating' where as with MS it was just like a spoiled kid because he was certainly going to lose ( ie MS vs DH 1994 for example )

Put either Senna or Schumacher in that Merc in that race & absolutely no way would Rosberg have ended up as champion

I think Hamilton has a 'weakness' where someone can get into his 'space' like NR, perhaps JB in 2011 and it eats away at him, hence the care Merc take in picking his team mates........I think other people thrive on that fight , Seb for instance vs mark Webber seemed to reach greater heights ( despite moaning whinging etc etc )

Yup that's definitely a weakness of Hamilton's and he doesn't have many weaknesses.

To be fair to Senna and Scumacher, they would've had that 2016 WDC wrapped up and secured against Nico Rosberg before Abu Dhabi.

[NewUsername]

Smollet said:

NewUsername said:

I think Senna had more of a sense of right and wrong than just blatant cheating like Shumacher......admittedly he almost seemed to use his off track charitable activities to balance his sometimes poor on track behaviour but i think he was much more complex than Schumacher and its less clear cut that he was 'cheating' where as with MS it was just like a spoiled kid because he was certainly going to lose ( ie MS vs DH 1994 for example )

If Senna had been kicked out of F1 and stripped of his title for deliberately ramming Prost @ 150mph in order to win the title then I doubt Schumacher would’ve resorted to his dubious driving tactics.

I’m not sure it was that speed and Senna did it out of a sense of injustice because of the grid slot being moved to the dirty side.... it wasn’t done on such simple terms as Schumacher, I’m not saying it’s right but it’s deffo not the same

[glazbagun]

Those downplaying Rosberg against Schumacher in a Merc presumably think he was a spent force when Rosberg was beating Schumacher in a Merc, then? Or is the implication that if Merc had a title shot he'd have upped the politics/mind games and thrown in some "accidents".

[TobyTR]

glazbagun said:

Those downplaying Rosberg against Schumacher in a Merc presumably think he was a spent force when Rosberg was beating Schumacher in a Merc, then? Or is the implication that if Merc had a title shot he'd have upped the politics/mind games and thrown in some "accidents".

No, we've established most people on here aren't daft enough to compare a 43-year-old Schumacher with the 23-34 year old Schumacher that was winning titles.

[kiseca]

sparta6 said:

It's simple.
Bottas has upped his game this year, but I still don't consider him a Top 6 driver.
He may have improved his own game by 2% which has made the difference in being runner up in WDC.

A close colleague of mine has helped several F1 drivers, and an improvement of just 1% can make a world of difference to the results.

So if you can attribute Bottas's performance to the driver, why do you insist that Hamilton's is due to the car? Do tyou not see that this position just confirms you are starting from a baised viewpoint and that your reasoning is being built backwards from that? It's obvious to me at least. Can't speak for everyone else on the forum but you've been called out for your biased viewpoint before.

Perhaps you should start paying attention to that instead of bludgeoning on perpetually with your biased opinions?

[paulguitar]

TobyTR said:

No, we've established most people on here aren't daft enough to compare a 43-year-old Schumacher with the 23-34 year old Schumacher that was winning titles.

Wasn't an issue for Fangio, or Mansell.

[NewUsername]

TobyTR said:

glazbagun said:

Those downplaying Rosberg against Schumacher in a Merc presumably think he was a spent force when Rosberg was beating Schumacher in a Merc, then? Or is the implication that if Merc had a title shot he'd have upped the politics/mind games and thrown in some "accidents".

No, we've established most people on here aren't daft enough to compare a 43-year-old Schumacher with the 23-34 year old Schumacher that was winning titles.

No we haven't, firstly Schumacher was just 41 in the January of 2010 (the same age as Mansell last won from pole), i'm not going to be convinced ever that Ross Brawn signed him to play second fiddle to Nico Rosberg and pootle round in 10th place.

Edited by NewUsername on Tuesday 22 October 09:01

[kiseca]

NewUsername said:

Smollet said:

NewUsername said:

I think Senna had more of a sense of right and wrong than just blatant cheating like Shumacher......admittedly he almost seemed to use his off track charitable activities to balance his sometimes poor on track behaviour but i think he was much more complex than Schumacher and its less clear cut that he was 'cheating' where as with MS it was just like a spoiled kid because he was certainly going to lose ( ie MS vs DH 1994 for example )

If Senna had been kicked out of F1 and stripped of his title for deliberately ramming Prost @ 150mph in order to win the title then I doubt Schumacher would’ve resorted to his dubious driving tactics.

I’m not sure it was that speed and Senna did it out of a sense of injustice because of the grid slot being moved to the dirty side.... it wasn’t done on such simple terms as Schumacher, I’m not saying it’s right but it’s deffo not the same

Small point, but pole position wasn't moved to the dirty side. It was the same side it always had been. Senna asked for it to be moved to the racing line (clean side) but they refused.

Senna definitely always felt completely justified in what he chose to do, but that's no excuse for choosing immoral actions and definitely not for risking the lives of others. From the start of his career, even in the lower formulas, Senna made comments that showed he felt the establishment simply didn't like him and didn't want him to succeed. He'd never blame himself for decisions that went against him but would always conclude that the authorities had it in for him. he wasn't completely wrong on that point either, but he was never able to tie the FIA's misgivings back to his own ruthless and sometimes dangerous on track behaviour. This is where Max Verstappen reminds me of Senna... along with his speed.

Anyway, yes, the motivation might be different but the action wasn't.

EDIT: Those comparing Mansell to Schumacher through age, have a look through Formula 1's "Oldest" records. Schumacher appears on them repeatedly, setting age records not matched since 1970 in some cases. Mansell does not.

Edited by kiseca on Tuesday 22 October 09:05

[NewUsername]

kiseca said:

EDIT: Those comparing Mansell to Schumacher through age, have a look through Formula 1's "Oldest" records. Schumacher appears on them repeatedly, setting age records not matched since 1970 in some cases. Mansell does not.

Edited by kiseca on Tuesday 22 October 09:05

Largely irrelevant, as we know the record books show JB scored more points then LH over 3 seasons etc etc

Fact is Mansell was plenty competitive at that age ( against his team mate also ) after two seasons driving vastly different cars, this is not a mansell fanboy post but merely a case study in age/performance/comeback, so using MS age as an excuse doesn't hold true with me, especially as its claimed he was in such fine shape and he had tested extensively in his time away.