Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?

[TobyTR]

KevinCamaroSS said:

TobyTR said:

Alonso outfoxing Hamilton Canada 2013, not 'race pace'

Alonso beating Hamilton wheel-to-wheel in a tight battle, not 'race pace'




It doesn't matter how long you've been watching F1, if you're biased then you are.

I'm not a Schumacher fan, but I appreciate greatness when I see it. Much in the same way I view all the multiple World Champions.

Hereby proving your own bias.

Nobody has said Schumacher is useless, only that he is not a true great because he resorted to cheating, had the backing of the FIA and always had a compliant team-mate.

You have managed to find a whole two examples of Alonso getting the better of Hamilton, wow, 2 examples from around 10 years of both being in F1, fantastic. No doubt, if I could be bothered, I could find 20 examples of Hamilton getting the better of Alonso during that period.

It is a simple fact that in 2007 Hamilton came 2nd in the WDC, Alonso 3rd when they were both in the same team. At that point Hamilton was a rookie and Alonso the reigning WDC holder.

Explain bias, please. See post above. And please post those 20 examples in full from 2010-2013... i look forward to your reply.

Edited by TobyTR on Sunday 24th November 21:40

[E34-3.2]

TobyTR said:

Mercedes has won 76% of all races 2014-present, Ferrari managed 67% 2000-2004, even less if you count 2000-2006... Red Bull 53% 2010-2013.

As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, it's okay to mention Ferrari's Bridgestone tyre advantage from 2001-2004, but lets all just brush over the fact of the three-year ban on PU engine development that gave Mercedes a four-year head-start. "cognitive dissonance" ladies and gents

Mercedes achieved 76% of victories recently for one good reason. They want to win everything and therefore have put 2 drivers to fight for every victories possible all year around. You can see this year again than they have compromised some potential victories for Hamilton or Bottas to make sure Mercedes win and not only one of their selected driver.

Ferrari compromised most of the races for their number 2 drivers so if Schumacher did not win, very often the number 2 wasn't in position to win. On top of that, Ferrari never employed 2 potential winners, so suddenly you realise that the 67% rate they achieved is very low when looking how dominant their car was.

2 different philosophies. Mercedes wants to win everything with both drivers. Ferrari wanted one driver to win everything at any cost.

Let's not forget the huge financial back up Ferrari has been enjoying from the FIA during all those years as well.

Edited by E34-3.2 on Monday 25th November 04:09

[TheDeuce]

TobyTR said:

You said: "Hamilton is in a class of one. Never flustered and always able to think quicker." - I proved he wasn't - Hamilton outqualified Alonso 2010-2013 and yet Alonso overtook him consistently throughout those seasons and finished ahead in those championships four years in a row. Which led to such accolades from Martin Brundle labelling Alonso as the best all-rounder on the grid in 2014. Those two videos i posted above took all of less than 30secs YouTube search to find, plenty more... So Hamilton is not "in a class of one at all", as you described.

I said you are spouting biased nonsense, which we've now established you have been, still attempting a cop-out trying to claim 'mental instability' because it's not gone your way.

Seeing as you didn't comment on that Schumacher's final race for Ferrari at Brazil 2006 video, does that mean you now retract your statement "Schumacher had nothing special or exciting in his moves, mostly dirt, cheat and ram. Little different to the likes of many midfield problem drivers like Maldonado or Perez."??...... I notice you went particularly quiet on that, your emotions clearly got the better of you. You do talk a good game with "most agree with me" though

I've openly mentioned Schumacher's 3 indiscretions 1991-2006 and squeezing Barrichello in 2010 earlier in this thread which totally deserves to dent his character and sporting behaviour, but that doesn't detract from his ability in an F1 car, it's a stain on his character. I've also put forward the arguments for Schumacher's ability in lesser machinery and the statistics that back this up on previous pages. Even if you take three wins off his resume (the indiscretions didn't impact his race win total anyway), that still leaves him with 88 wins by 246 races.

Mercedes has won 76% of all races 2014-present, Ferrari managed 67% 2000-2004, even less if you count 2000-2006... Red Bull 53% 2010-2013.

As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, it's okay to mention Ferrari's Bridgestone tyre advantage from 2001-2004, but lets all just brush over the fact of the three-year ban on PU engine development that gave Mercedes a four-year head-start. "cognitive dissonance" ladies and gents

Schumacher was indeed an excellent driver, one of the finest talents no doubt. Unfortunately he also became a Ferrari and F1 product - he became a brand, and they added value to that brand by positioning him to win as much as possible. For me, that doesn't take anything away from his talent, it's just the way things were in the world at the time. Even the top 40 singles sales for pop music were effectively controlled by commercial influence back then... The world has become a far more honest place since, almost shockingly so.

This debate can be distilled to the reality that Hamilton has won slightly fewer races than Schumacher did in the same time Vs Schumacher winning slightly more races due to some 'un-sporting' advantages. Swap the two drivers around in their timelines and I can imagine Lewis would have been happy enough to enjoy the same advantages back then, it's how the world worked.. and in the modern day, Schumacher would also be a cleaner and more socially aware racer. Maybe even a vegan

Whatever, as ever in F1 everything, including the way the world itself ticks, changes between each of the champions period of glory. The story of each of the greats is different as a result. One thing remains constant though - you have to be great before you become a great, you have to do something to earn that position. They both did that and on that basis, it's hard to say who is 'best'.

Personally, I think if both drivers results were adjusted for fairness, Lewis leads. But if Schumacher had raced in the same period as Lewis, I accept he could have done as well, as fairly too.

These debates can never be settled. Unfortunately we all follow a sport that, quite uniquely, changes the rules and tools of battle constantly. Thus, anything we compare is not comparable at all.

[angrymoby]

TobyTR said:

Hamilton outqualified Alonso 2010-2013 and yet Alonso overtook him consistently throughout those seasons and finished ahead in those championships four years in a row

errr ...doesn't this kinda of show you how much of an advantage of having defacto number one status is?

then again, i' not sure any of the top tier talents would need number one status when going up against most of these?:

de Cesaris
Piquet
Brundle
Patrese
Verstappen
Lehto
Herbert
Irvine
Barrichello
Massa
Rosberg

standouts would have to be those with WDC's ...i.e Piquet (past his prime) & Rosberg (yet to hit his prime)

beating other teams & whether you're going up against superior/ inferior driver/car combo's is subjective (you can fiddle/ skew stats to suit- like thinking a car that qualifies well, but is unreliable is a better car- or lumping all DNF's in as the same, rather than look at whether mechanical or driver related) ...but going up against team mates, with equal status, in equal machinery?- not so much

& that's why i have Prost, Senna, Hamilton all above Schumacher

...& i'd have all 3 above Schumacher, even before we even get into dodgy cars & dodgy tactics/driving

Edited by angrymoby on Monday 25th November 13:05

[A44RON]

I've just found the CV of the ART team principal and it reads like this:

2002 - started collaboration with Mercedes
2004 - wins F3 Euro Series with Jamie Green
2005 - wins GP2 with Nico Rosberg, wins F3 Euro Series running Lewis Hamilton in his second year
2006 - wins GP2 with Lewis Hamilton, wins F3 Euro Series with Paul Di Resta
2007 - wins F3 Euro Series with Romain Grosjean
2008 - wins F3 Euro Series with Nico Hulkenberg
2009 - wins GP2 with Nico Hulkenberg, wins F3 Euro Series with Jules Bianchi

so the notion that all the teams/cars are the same level playing field in lower formulae isn't true. The best teams still win

[37chevy]

A44RON said:

I've just found the CV of the ART team principal and it reads like this:

2002 - started collaboration with Mercedes
2004 - wins F3 Euro Series with Jamie Green
2005 - wins GP2 with Nico Rosberg, wins F3 Euro Series running Lewis Hamilton in his second year
2006 - wins GP2 with Lewis Hamilton, wins F3 Euro Series with Paul Di Resta
2007 - wins F3 Euro Series with Romain Grosjean
2008 - wins F3 Euro Series with Nico Hulkenberg
2009 - wins GP2 with Nico Hulkenberg, wins F3 Euro Series with Jules Bianchi

so the notion that all the teams/cars are the same level playing field in lower formulae isn't true. The best teams still win

don't think anyone has said they are equal

even down to karting level theres a big difference, usually in prep and setup...same goes for categories up to F2, there will be teams that hire the best engineers and they will be able to extract the best out of the car and drivers

[sparta6]

E34-3.2 said:

sparta6 said:

Ofcourse this thread should've been titled "Who's the greatest sportsman ?" In which case many would dsay Hamilton.

I'm sure Hamilton will cruise past Schumacher's record in the fantastic Mercedes.

Greatest driver of all time:
S.Loeb.
I have been privilege to see many races of all sorts and talk to many drivers and that guy stand above all of them by a mile. Just on another planet when in his prime.

Not sure that Hamilton will pass Schumacher records yet. The competition is fiercer than what Michael ever had in his time, especially between 2001 and 2004 where titles were basically given to him. Huge FIA support and tailored made tyres.

No doubt that Loeb is a contender for one of the greatest drivers.

2001 - 2004 Michael and Ferrari thoroughly deserved their success due to their relentless testing. It's a shame F1 no longer allows evolution.
Prior to 2001 it was fierce competition for Michael in a car that was not really in contention without MSC dragging it around. I'm sure a broken leg didn't help either.

[sparta6]

kiseca said:

sparta6 said:

Prost also had the backing of FIA, with some unsavoury decisions made in his favour, utilizing his French political leverage.

That is simply untrue.

It's assumed because Balestre and Prost were both French, which is an absurdly simplistic way to view the relationship between two people who knew eachother far beyond a shared nationality.

Senna was on the receiving end of that French Connection

[Deesee]

Greatest of the 20th century Schumi, 21 century Hamilton.

End thread..

[sparta6]

Deesee said:

Greatest of the 20th century Schumi, 21 century Hamilton.

End thread..

A fair call - although MSC was blistering in any POS, as was Senna.

Hamilton recently bought an apartment in our street if he pops round for a cup of sugar I'll ask him what he thinks

[Deesee]

sparta6 said:

Deesee said:

Greatest of the 20th century Schumi, 21 century Hamilton.

End thread..

A fair call - although MSC was blistering in any POS, as was Senna.

Hamilton recently bought an apartment in our street if he pops round for a cup of sugar I'll ask him what he thinks

Quite a few 20th century legends I’ve chucked on the scrap heap there!

Are you in Kensington?

[shirt]

37chevy said:

A44RON said:

I've just found the CV of the ART team principal and it reads like this:

2002 - started collaboration with Mercedes
2004 - wins F3 Euro Series with Jamie Green
2005 - wins GP2 with Nico Rosberg, wins F3 Euro Series running Lewis Hamilton in his second year
2006 - wins GP2 with Lewis Hamilton, wins F3 Euro Series with Paul Di Resta
2007 - wins F3 Euro Series with Romain Grosjean
2008 - wins F3 Euro Series with Nico Hulkenberg
2009 - wins GP2 with Nico Hulkenberg, wins F3 Euro Series with Jules Bianchi

so the notion that all the teams/cars are the same level playing field in lower formulae isn't true. The best teams still win

don't think anyone has said they are equal

even down to karting level theres a big difference, usually in prep and setup...same goes for categories up to F2, there will be teams that hire the best engineers and they will be able to extract the best out of the car and drivers

Correct. Spend some time in an f3/gp2 pitlane and the difference between how ART and someone like trident operate is clearly apparent

[37chevy]

shirt said:

37chevy said:

A44RON said:

I've just found the CV of the ART team principal and it reads like this:

2002 - started collaboration with Mercedes
2004 - wins F3 Euro Series with Jamie Green
2005 - wins GP2 with Nico Rosberg, wins F3 Euro Series running Lewis Hamilton in his second year
2006 - wins GP2 with Lewis Hamilton, wins F3 Euro Series with Paul Di Resta
2007 - wins F3 Euro Series with Romain Grosjean
2008 - wins F3 Euro Series with Nico Hulkenberg
2009 - wins GP2 with Nico Hulkenberg, wins F3 Euro Series with Jules Bianchi

so the notion that all the teams/cars are the same level playing field in lower formulae isn't true. The best teams still win

don't think anyone has said they are equal

even down to karting level theres a big difference, usually in prep and setup...same goes for categories up to F2, there will be teams that hire the best engineers and they will be able to extract the best out of the car and drivers

Correct. Spend some time in an f3/gp2 pitlane and the difference between how ART and someone like trident operate is clearly apparent

It’s no different to football academy’s. Talent spotted at a young age and steered through the right channel and teams via young driver programs or sponsors. Thing is you have to show that talent at a young age and continue to show it as you develop/ age or you’re just spat out of the system.

Think of the drivers who have been in those teams and have had the same equiptment and opportunities that haven’t become 6 time champions...

....arguably it was harder for Lewis than the likes of max/ Vettel/ ricciardo because there was no structured young driver program in place like the red bull program

Edited by 37chevy on Monday 25th November 17:18

[kiseca]

sparta6 said:

kiseca said:

sparta6 said:

Prost also had the backing of FIA, with some unsavoury decisions made in his favour, utilizing his French political leverage.

That is simply untrue.

It's assumed because Balestre and Prost were both French, which is an absurdly simplistic way to view the relationship between two people who knew eachother far beyond a shared nationality.

Senna was on the receiving end of that French Connection

No he wasn't. He was on the receiving end of Balestre's ego not liking having his authority challenged by Senna.

[E34-3.2]

kiseca said:

No he wasn't. He was on the receiving end of Balestre's ego not liking having his authority challenged by Senna.

Yep, and one thing people don't seems to know if not French is that Balestre and Prost hated each others. Problem is that Senna was such a cry baby and arrogant that he was even more hated by Balestre which by the way hardly liked anyone...

[MikeyC]

E34-3.2 said:

sparta6 said:

Ofcourse this thread should've been titled "Who's the greatest sportsman ?" In which case many would dsay Hamilton.

I'm sure Hamilton will cruise past Schumacher's record in the fantastic Mercedes.

Greatest driver of all time:
S.Loeb.
I have been privilege to see many races of all sorts and talk to many drivers and that guy stand above all of them by a mile. Just on another planet when in his prime.

Lucky you meeting SL - yeah, he managed to switch from Rally to Touring Cars pretty well IIRC

I realise this is going back a bit (before most peoples time on here incl my own!) but for 'Greatest Sportsman', I would consider Peter Collins

article on Fangios page said:

At the season-ending Italian Grand Prix, Fangio's Ferrari teammate Peter Collins, who was in a position to win the World Championship with just 15 laps to go, handed over his car to Fangio.

A different era indeed

Apols going a bit OT

[clarki]

I wasn't a schumacher fan in his heyday tbh and I do cheer for mercedes (and therefore hamilton) at present.

However, would it be true to say I watched schumi win a WDC in not the best car on the grid, whereas hamilton has yet to do that??

IMO the stats (WDCs) currently show the german is better...but Hamilton is faster, possibly the fastest ever??

[MikeyC]

clarki said:

However, would it be true to say I watched schumi win a WDC in not the best car on the grid, whereas hamilton has yet to do that??

It's always tricky assessing speed of cars.
I did a bit of analysis using Qali times for the fastest car in a team (not a particular driver) to get some perspective
I used % of time advantage/dis-advantage (so long tracks lose any weighting) and summed them up to get an average for a season.
This has the advantage in that the data is readily available plus drivers are on (usually!) same tyres and gong flat-out
Fastest-lap data is not available (for older races) plus race/tyre/fuel strategy would make it meaningless

All %'s are that over the Next Best Team at a each track and then averaged over the year (hope this makes sense!)
In 1995, Williams had a Q advantage of 0.21% - Bennetton had a 0.36% dis-advantage (MSC won WDC in Bennetton)
1994 is tricky since it's the year Senna died, he had set pole pos for 1st 3 races (Hill was slow strarter) plus MSC missed 2 races
2000->2014 (inclusive) Fer had a 0.07% advantage
2014->2018 (inclusive) MB had an advantage of 0.45%
2010->2013 (inclusive) RBR had an advantage of 0.1%
2007 McL had a 0.09% advantage (RAI won WDC)
2008 McL had 0% advantage (HAM won WDC) (so did have the technically fastest car but no overall advantage)

Obviously this is Quali, in the race reliability plus other factors etc come into effect
I'm sure there are may other ways to analyse the data
If anyone has any better ideas ?

This may/may not answer your query

<edit>small correction due to missing JPN in 1995 0.43->0.36%
Removed Sennapods bit at the end as it was not applicable

Edited by MikeyC on Thursday 28th November 16:18

[sparta6]

Deesee said:

Quite a few 20th century legends I’ve chucked on the scrap heap there!

Are you in Kensington?

A pyramid, rather than a scrap heap.

You are close - but alas no cigar

[Deesee]

sparta6 said:

Deesee said:

Quite a few 20th century legends I’ve chucked on the scrap heap there!

Are you in Kensington?

A pyramid, rather than a scrap heap.

You are close - but alas no cigar

Sparta6, that is quite the comment..close, nail on the head for me.

I’ll say MSC was ‘the’ driver of the 20th century!

Please indulge a better driver?