Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?

Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?

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mattikake

5,057 posts

198 months

Wednesday 27th November 2019
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TobyTR said:
skinned Alonso on that corner, but Alonso beat him in the race
Alonso finished ahead of Hamilton due to being given a different (advantageous) pit strategy. Perhaps even a number 1 status advantage... He didn't pass him on the track but in the pits.

Hamilton passed him on the track. Alonso couldn't return the favour.

Again you demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of race pace v's race craft. I put this down to you being a Schumacher fan and are unable to grasp to difference.

TobyTR said:
you incorrectly said Hamilton is in a class of one - we've now established he isn't
You haven't. 2 examples of Alonso overtaking Hamilton v's 9÷ (+ many more) of Hamilton doing the same.

And what is this "we" business? I don't see anyone backing you up.

TobyTR said:
You said: "Hamilton is in a class of one. Never flustered and always able to think quicker." - I proved he wasn't - Hamilton outqualified Alonso 2010-2013 and yet Alonso overtook him consistently throughout those seasons
You have proved nothing. And why does only 2010 to 2013 count? Is it convenient for you Alonso was in a better situation at the time? Do it over their entire career. Selective stats are a feeble position to uphold.

In terms of wheel-to-wheel race craft Hamilton is in a class of one.

TobyTR said:
Those two videos i posted above took all of less than 30secs YouTube search to find, plenty more... So Hamilton is not "in a class of one at all", as you described.
The videos I posted took less than 10 seconds... Oops, beat you again. wink (hint: it's because they're mine)

Go on then. Show me these plenty more. Find more than 2. Find more than 9. Find more of Alonso overtaking Hamilton than Hamilton overtaking Alonso. (Hint: you're setting yourself up for a massive fall on this]

TobyTR said:
I said you are spouting biased nonsense, which we've now established you have been, still attempting a cop-out trying to claim 'mental instability' because it's not gone your way.
What is this "we" business? I don't see anyone backing you up. It's not your imaginary friends is it?

Mental instability is not a cop-out if you persist in displaying them.

TobyTR said:
Seeing as you didn't comment on that Schumacher's final race for Ferrari at Brazil 2006 video, does that mean you now retract your statement "Schumacher had nothing special or exciting in his moves, mostly dirt, cheat and ram.

Little different to the likes of many midfield problem drivers like Maldonado or Perez."??...... I notice you went particularly quiet on that, your emotions clearly got the better of you. You do talk a good game with "most agree with me" though wink
No. It means I'm not interested in this one-off claim. Nothing else. Stop judging people by your own low standards. Just because some people have emotional control problems brought on by their cognitive dissonance, doesn't mean other people have...

Schumacher had nothing special in his moves. Show me some which were and i'll double it with Hamilton.

TobyTR said:
As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, it's okay to mention Ferrari's Bridgestone tyre advantage from 2001-2004, but lets all just brush over the fact of the three-year ban on PU engine development that gave Mercedes a four-year head-start. hehe "cognitive dissonance" ladies and gents
I haven't said a thing about Ferrari tyre advantages. Stop making up points and using them to argue against.

Btw merc advantages has little to do with the PU spec and everything about how they've deployed it like the placement of the turbo and the flat rake that comes with it. Other teams were free to copy this.


Edited by mattikake on Wednesday 27th November 22:55

vdn

8,905 posts

202 months

Wednesday 27th November 2019
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+1

A44RON

483 posts

95 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
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MikeyC said:
clarki said:
However, would it be true to say I watched schumi win a WDC in not the best car on the grid, whereas hamilton has yet to do that??
It's always tricky assessing speed of cars.
I did a bit of analysis using Qali times for the fastest car in a team (not a particular driver) to get some perspective
I used % of time advantage/dis-advantage (so long tracks lose any weighting) and summed them up to get an average for a season.
This has the advantage in that the data is readily available plus drivers are on (usually!) same tyres and gong flat-out
Fastest-lap data is not available (for older races) plus race/tyre strategy would make it meaningless

All %'s are that over the Next Best Team at a each track and then averaged over the year (hope this makes sense!)
In 1995, Williams had a Q advantage of 0.21% - Bennetton had a 0.43% dis-advantage (MSC won WDC in Bennetton)
1994 is tricky since it's the year Senna died, he had set pole pos for 1st 3 races plus MSC missed 2 races
2000->2014 (inclusive) Fer had a 0.07% advantage
2014->2018 (inclusive) MB had an advantage of 0.45%
2010->2013 (inclusive) RBR had an advantage of 0.1%
2007 McL had a 0.09% advantage (RAI won WDC)
2008 Mcl had 0% advantage (HAM won WDC) (so did have the fastest car but no overall advantage)

Obviously this is Quali, in the race reliability plus other factors etc come into effect
I'm sure there are may other ways to analyse the data
If anyone has any better ideas ?

This may/may not answer quour query smile
clarki said:
IMO the stats (WDCs) currently show the german is better...but Hamilton is faster, possibly the fastest ever??
Sennapods ??
good analysis beer

A44RON

483 posts

95 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
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mattikake said:
I haven't said a thing about Ferrari tyre advantages. Stop making up points and using them to argue against.

Btw merc advantages has little to do with the PU spec and everything about how they've deployed it like the placement of the turbo and the flat rake that comes with it. Other teams were free to copy this.


Edited by mattikake on Wednesday 27th November 22:55
What he's pointing out is Hamilton isn't in a class of one when it comes to race craft, and I agree with his points too. There have been a handful of other F1 drivers just as good if not better over the years. Alonso was quality every year he raced. His only 'bad' year in F1, in 2007, by his standards and he finished on the same points as Lewis, where as Lewis' arguably worst year of his career so far was 2011 and he got soundly beaten by his teammate to the point it wasn't close. And he was a bit hit-and-miss 2009, 2010, and 2012 too. Even accounting for Lewis' mechanical failures in 2012 assuming he would've won all those races, he still would've finished about 13 points behind Alonso that year despite qualifying ahead most of the time.

There's no doubting Alonso is top drawer at race craft too along with Schumacher in his prime, which is why I don't think you can say Hamilton is in a class of one. It's a fair point to say Hamilton's been in a class of one this year and last year for sure. But he hasn't had it all his own way throughout his career; especially several years ago with Alonso, Button and Kimi beating him.

Deesee

8,331 posts

82 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
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Racecraft at its finest (from both)

Hamilton defending Alonso 2013 Nurburgring.

Were we robbed of seeing a bit more of this..

https://youtu.be/FefZAtCmTiM

Deesee

8,331 posts

82 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
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Impressive


E34-3.2

1,003 posts

78 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
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Deesee said:
Racecraft at its finest (from both)

Hamilton defending Alonso 2013 Nurburgring.

Were we robbed of seeing a bit more of this..

https://youtu.be/FefZAtCmTiM
2010 to 2013 was a bit the opposite of what is happening now. Ferrari had the better race pace than the Mercedes and McLaren(mercs). The Mercedes engine were good at qualifying.

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
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mattikake said:
TobyTR said:
skinned Alonso on that corner, but Alonso beat him in the race
Alonso finished ahead of Hamilton due to being given a different (advantageous) pit strategy. Perhaps even a number 1 status advantage... He didn't pass him on the track but in the pits.

Hamilton passed him on the track. Alonso couldn't return the favour.

Again you demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of race pace v's race craft. I put this down to you being a Schumacher fan and are unable to grasp to difference.

TobyTR said:
you incorrectly said Hamilton is in a class of one - we've now established he isn't
You haven't. 2 examples of Alonso overtaking Hamilton v's 9÷ (+ many more) of Hamilton doing the same.

And what is this "we" business? I don't see anyone backing you up.

TobyTR said:
You said: "Hamilton is in a class of one. Never flustered and always able to think quicker." - I proved he wasn't - Hamilton outqualified Alonso 2010-2013 and yet Alonso overtook him consistently throughout those seasons
You have proved nothing. And why does only 2010 to 2013 count? Is it convenient for you Alonso was in a better situation at the time? Do it over their entire career. Selective stats are a feeble position to uphold.

In terms of wheel-to-wheel race craft Hamilton is in a class of one.

TobyTR said:
Those two videos i posted above took all of less than 30secs YouTube search to find, plenty more... So Hamilton is not "in a class of one at all", as you described.
The videos I posted took less than 10 seconds... Oops, beat you again. wink (hint: it's because they're mine)

Go on then. Show me these plenty more. Find more than 2. Find more than 9. Find more of Alonso overtaking Hamilton than Hamilton overtaking Alonso. (Hint: you're setting yourself up for a massive fall on this]

TobyTR said:
I said you are spouting biased nonsense, which we've now established you have been, still attempting a cop-out trying to claim 'mental instability' because it's not gone your way.
What is this "we" business? I don't see anyone backing you up. It's not your imaginary friends is it?

Mental instability is not a cop-out if you persist in displaying them.

TobyTR said:
Seeing as you didn't comment on that Schumacher's final race for Ferrari at Brazil 2006 video, does that mean you now retract your statement "Schumacher had nothing special or exciting in his moves, mostly dirt, cheat and ram.

Little different to the likes of many midfield problem drivers like Maldonado or Perez."??...... I notice you went particularly quiet on that, your emotions clearly got the better of you. You do talk a good game with "most agree with me" though wink
No. It means I'm not interested in this one-off claim. Nothing else. Stop judging people by your own low standards. Just because some people have emotional control problems brought on by their cognitive dissonance, doesn't mean other people have...

Schumacher had nothing special in his moves. Show me some which were and i'll double it with Hamilton.

TobyTR said:
As someone else mentioned earlier in this thread, it's okay to mention Ferrari's Bridgestone tyre advantage from 2001-2004, but lets all just brush over the fact of the three-year ban on PU engine development that gave Mercedes a four-year head-start. hehe "cognitive dissonance" ladies and gents
I haven't said a thing about Ferrari tyre advantages. Stop making up points and using them to argue against.

Btw merc advantages has little to do with the PU spec and everything about how they've deployed it like the placement of the turbo and the flat rake that comes with it. Other teams were free to copy this.

Edited by mattikake on Wednesday 27th November 22:55
1. For Hamilton to be “in a class of one” he must be flawless and unbeatable at wheel-to-wheel race-craft, and as the evidence shows he has been beaten over the years, which you gloss over because it doesn’t fit your agenda. No F1 driver has been in “a class of one” in this respect. Senna, Hakkinen, Schumacher, Hamilton, Button, Mansell, Alonso, even Ricciardo(!) have showed exceptional race-craft in their careers. It is only you claiming Hamilton is in a class of one, and you don’t like it when called out on it.

2. 2010-2013 is when Hamilton and Alonso were in similar-performing machinery and which is why YouTube has their most wheel-to-wheel battles during this time. Albeit the stats actually have McLaren being the slightly better car those years, and look what happened… of course you are welcome to compare and post 2014-2018, but given the dominance of Mercedes and Alonso’s machinery that would be ridiculous, but you’re welcome if it will make you feel better.

3. Why is someone highlighting your bias towards Hamilton a “mental instability”? Please explain. If you’re biased towards Hamilton, then you are. No harm in that. It’s an attempt by you to shut down an argument by using insults.

4. So you describing M.Schumacher as “had nothing special or exciting in his moves, mostly dirt, cheat and ram” is a one-off claim now, is it? Glad we’ve got that straight. Notice I haven’t taken personal swipes at you with such petty remarks as “your own low standards” and “mental instability” – that reeks of desperation. But you know what they say about people who resort to low-ball insults when it comes to putting their argument across..… they’ve already lost the argument at that point.

5. “Schumacher had nothing special in his moves.” The evidence goes against you again… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYSTaVBpwPg


But it’s all clear now, I see from your username you are indeed the Hamilton fanboy on YouTube that has created those LH overtake compilations!! It all makes sense. Tell us, have you ever created compilation videos for Schumacher, Alonso, Hakkinen or Senna?...... because it appears to be all Lewis Hamilton vids.

And here you are trying to lecture us all on “cognitive dissonance” rofl

I’m sure your cognitive dissonance will go into overdrive now.

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
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E34-3.2 said:
Mercedes achieved 76% of victories recently for one good reason. They want to win everything and therefore have put 2 drivers to fight for every victories possible all year around. You can see this year again than they have compromised some potential victories for Hamilton or Bottas to make sure Mercedes win and not only one of their selected driver.

Ferrari compromised most of the races for their number 2 drivers so if Schumacher did not win, very often the number 2 wasn't in position to win. On top of that, Ferrari never employed 2 potential winners, so suddenly you realise that the 67% rate they achieved is very low when looking how dominant their car was.

2 different philosophies. Mercedes wants to win everything with both drivers. Ferrari wanted one driver to win everything at any cost.

Let's not forget the huge financial back up Ferrari has been enjoying from the FIA during all those years as well.


Edited by E34-3.2 on Monday 25th November 04:09
No F1 team would compromise their second driver to not pick up a race win if their number one driver couldn't, that's rubbish.

The ultimate aims of F1 teams are 1-2 victories, maximising points for both drivers and winning the constructors championship. The notion that Ferrari somehow compromised their second driver to not maximise championship points if Schumacher couldn't win is laughable. I've heard it all now. You should tweet Ross Brawn and Martin Brundle that.


Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 28th November 08:44

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
quotequote all
E34-3.2 said:
Deesee said:
Racecraft at its finest (from both)

Hamilton defending Alonso 2013 Nurburgring.

Were we robbed of seeing a bit more of this..

https://youtu.be/FefZAtCmTiM
2010 to 2013 was a bit the opposite of what is happening now. Ferrari had the better race pace than the Mercedes and McLaren(mercs). The Mercedes engine were good at qualifying.
2011 Button and Hamilton both had three race wins to Alonso's one race win, Massa's best finish was 5th place finish

2012 Hamilton had 4 race wins, Button had 3 race wins, Alonso had 3 race wins and Massa's best was one 3rd place finish

Rosberg won two races in 2013 to Hamilton's one race win. Alonso also won two races and Massa's best finish was one 3rd place.

It was Alonso's superior consistency throughout the seasons that got him those WDC runner-ups


Deesee

8,331 posts

82 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
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TobyTR said:
It was Alonso's superior consistency throughout the seasons that got him those WDC runner-ups
One of those years he was 100 points off it.

The other the failure to pass petrov for half the race in the final race sealed his fate.

100 points off is hardly consistent.

& not getting it done when it mattered (what was it 13/14 point lead going into the last race), is chalk that one down as a bit of a miss.



E34-3.2

1,003 posts

78 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
No F1 team would compromise their second driver to not pick up a race win if their number one driver couldn't, that's rubbish.

The ultimate aims of F1 teams are 1-2 victories, maximising points for both drivers and winning the constructors championship. The notion that Ferrari somehow compromised their second driver to not maximise championship points if Schumacher couldn't win is laughable. I've heard it all now. You should tweet Ross Brawn and Martin Brundle that.


Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 28th November 08:44
As soon as you give number 1 statue to one driver, you logically compromise your number 2 driver by not having the best strategies or equal opportunities. If you can't understand that, I can see why you opinion is so biased.

Now tell me, how many world champions past or future or even a potential championship winner Schumacher had to face in his own team over the years at Ferrari? Yes, your answer is simple... none, Just to make sure you don't compromise the number 1 statue of Schumacher. He was a great driver but don't forget what was happening on the pit wall. Todt was his saviour.


E34-3.2

1,003 posts

78 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
2011 Button and Hamilton both had three race wins to Alonso's one race win, Massa's best finish was 5th place finish

2012 Hamilton had 4 race wins, Button had 3 race wins, Alonso had 3 race wins and Massa's best was one 3rd place finish

Rosberg won two races in 2013 to Hamilton's one race win. Alonso also won two races and Massa's best finish was one 3rd place.

It was Alonso's superior consistency throughout the seasons that got him those WDC runner-ups
Again, Here you are comparing Alonso with number 1 statue in his team( don't try to deny it or I'll make you watch the German go) to Hamilton who was racing his own team mates and by the way, 1 was a world champion and the other one, a future one.

That is what makes Hamilton stand above the others, he has had fantastic racers as team mates without asking for number 1 place in the team. Brundle highlighted this not so long ago when comparing him to Shumacher.

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
quotequote all
E34-3.2 said:
TobyTR said:
No F1 team would compromise their second driver to not pick up a race win if their number one driver couldn't, that's rubbish.

The ultimate aims of F1 teams are 1-2 victories, maximising points for both drivers and winning the constructors championship. The notion that Ferrari somehow compromised their second driver to not maximise championship points if Schumacher couldn't win is laughable. I've heard it all now. You should tweet Ross Brawn and Martin Brundle that.


Edited by TobyTR on Thursday 28th November 08:44
As soon as you give number 1 statue to one driver, you logically compromise your number 2 driver by not having the best strategies or equal opportunities. If you can't understand that, I can see why you opinion is so biased.

Now tell me, how many world champions past or future or even a potential championship winner Schumacher had to face in his own team over the years at Ferrari? Yes, your answer is simple... none, Just to make sure you don't compromise the number 1 statue of Schumacher. He was a great driver but don't forget what was happening on the pit wall. Todt was his saviour.
One driver is always compromised compared to the other regardless of contractual status. First to pit generally has an advantage. It can't be both cars at the same time, so one gets an advantage. New parts for the car: If you only have enough parts for one car, then someone gets an advantage. If you're not sure if the part is going to work, one gets the risk. Not a big stretch from there to conclude that when you have to hand an advantage to one of your drivers, or the option of taking the risk, you give it to the driver who will make the best use of it.

If any team, including Ferrari in the 2000s, has a new part that will definitely make the car faster, and can comfortably make enough to update both cars, there's no way they are sending the second driver out without them.

Points are money. Constructors championship results are money.

So no, I don't agree that Ferrari purposefully compromised the second driver's ability to get points for the team to any extent more than any other team would.



Edited by kiseca on Thursday 28th November 10:28

angrymoby

2,605 posts

177 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
quotequote all
E34-3.2 said:
As soon as you give number 1 statue to one driver, you logically compromise your number 2 driver by not having the best strategies or equal opportunities. If you can't understand that, I can see why you opinion is so biased.

Now tell me, how many world champions past or future or even a potential championship winner Schumacher had to face in his own team over the years at Ferrari? Yes, your answer is simple... none, Just to make sure you don't compromise the number 1 statue of Schumacher. He was a great driver but don't forget what was happening on the pit wall. Todt was his saviour.
he has faced WDC drivers (just not at Ferrari, as the Schumi appreciation society don't like to mention it much wink )

against an outgoing Piquet for 5 races in his 'rookie' year ...6pts to 4 in Piquets favour

& Rosberg ...think we all know how that panned out



Edited by angrymoby on Thursday 28th November 10:43

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
quotequote all
Deesee said:
TobyTR said:
It was Alonso's superior consistency throughout the seasons that got him those WDC runner-ups
One of those years he was 100 points off it.

The other the failure to pass petrov for half the race in the final race sealed his fate.

100 points off is hardly consistent.

& not getting it done when it mattered (what was it 13/14 point lead going into the last race), is chalk that one down as a bit of a miss.
What were the points gap between Alonso and Hamilton those years? And the points gap between Alonso and his teammate?

If you look at his finishing places across the entire season it was still very consistent.

TobyTR

1,068 posts

145 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
quotequote all
E34-3.2 said:
TobyTR said:
2011 Button and Hamilton both had three race wins to Alonso's one race win, Massa's best finish was 5th place finish

2012 Hamilton had 4 race wins, Button had 3 race wins, Alonso had 3 race wins and Massa's best was one 3rd place finish

Rosberg won two races in 2013 to Hamilton's one race win. Alonso also won two races and Massa's best finish was one 3rd place.

It was Alonso's superior consistency throughout the seasons that got him those WDC runner-ups
Again, Here you are comparing Alonso with number 1 statue in his team( don't try to deny it or I'll make you watch the German go) to Hamilton who was racing his own team mates and by the way, 1 was a world champion and the other one, a future one.

That is what makes Hamilton stand above the others, he has had fantastic racers as team mates without asking for number 1 place in the team. Brundle highlighted this not so long ago when comparing him to Shumacher.
Going by your argument then, Hamilton and Button took even more wins and points off each other... So the McLaren and 2013 Mercedes was even better than the stats suggest...

Have a listen to Albert Costa's Beyond the Grid interview and his comments on the 2013 Mercedes.

Deesee

8,331 posts

82 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
quotequote all
TobyTR said:
What were the points gap between Alonso and Hamilton those years? And the points gap between Alonso and his teammate?

If you look at his finishing places across the entire season it was still very consistent.
Ok...

Hamilton was 12 points off Alonso in 2010, one win less (4 to 3), one less podium (10 to 9), one less points finish (16 to 15) , with 3 more retirements ( 1 vs 4 )

Retirement for Alonso was a crash at Spa from driver error, Hamilton had a coming together with Massa and Webber whilst overtaking, as well as a gearbox failure, as well as a high speed puncture whilst 2nd in Spain on the penultimate lap.



2013, Seb was in a class of his own (second half of the season, as development went to 2014 regs), finishing 155 points clear of second place.

Points finish (17 each), podiums (5 to 9 in favour of FA, nb all podiums in the first half of the season for Lewis), Wins 2 to 1 (for FA, all in first half of the season).

Mercedes did however beat Ferrari to the 2013 WDC & Poles 5 to Nil for Lewis.



It should also be noted that both Lotus Renaults finished higher in the WDC than the Ferrari no2, in 2013, and in one of those cars was R Grosjean.


& Hamilton had Button (Current WDC) as a team mate in 2010, (17 points finishes 7 podiums & 2 wins) Lewis (16/10/3)

& Rosberg (future WDC) as a team mate in 2013, (16 points finishes, 4 podiums & 2 wins) Lewis (17/5/1)

Massa 2013, 15 points finishes 1 podium 0 wins. FA (17/9/1)

Massa 2010, 14 Points finishes, 5 podium 0 wins. FA (16/10/4)

So Lewis had competitive team mates, Fernando dominated his team mate, as he has all team mates, well apart from one.... thumbup


shinjuku

476 posts

80 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
quotequote all
Hamilton.

Schumacher was brilliant, but Hamilton has the edge. Absolute racer. More raw.

Schumacher did a lot of dodgy st, and there were some awful team orders and driving behaviour that put me off him quite a bit.

E34-3.2

1,003 posts

78 months

Thursday 28th November 2019
quotequote all
shinjuku said:
Hamilton.

Schumacher was brilliant, but Hamilton has the edge. Absolute racer. More raw.

Schumacher did a lot of dodgy st, and there were some awful team orders and driving behaviour that put me off him quite a bit.
^^this

I still don't understand how some people can compare a driver with appealing racing behaviour such as driving into people or trying to kill them (ask Barrichello) or awful team orders to one of the cleanest world champion we have ever witness. I am puzzled by this.

The guy never went against a strong team mate. As soon as the tyres weren't design to his liking, he never won a championship again. Even with bad team mates, he still needed team orders. He is the only driver who has been disqualified from the F1 championship an entire season... That says it all.