Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?

Lewis Hamilton Vs Michael Schumacher - Who Is Better?

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Discussion

mattikake

4,756 posts

147 months

Friday 29th November
quotequote all
kiseca said:
mattikake said:
kiseca said:
Yes it's easy to say he benefitted from weak competition, but there are two reasons why it would appear that way.

1) 19 drivers (actually more) were outliers, visibly worse than normal. in Formula 1 all for the same 10odd year period.
2) 1 driver was an outlier, visibly better than all the competition for the majority of his career.

The odds are on option 2 being correct,
If your supposition was correct that may be true. But he couldn't beat Hakkinen and he couldn't beat Alonso. Massa was also getting the better of him towards the end of his Ferrari stint. So I think you make an erroneous leap of faith with your own perception, weakening your whole case.
Dude, your last reply to TobyTR took me two whole minutes to scroll past without even reading it. I'm not getting into this with you. Don't waste your time with me smile
Oh go on...

Hakkinen and Alonso are outliers? But he couldn't beat them. The logical fallacy is right there. Although I agree the rest were weak. His main rivals like Hill, villeneuve, Montoya, Raikkonen who all have failed to gain top level adulation before or since their time with Schumacher.

The thing is Schumacher couldn't beat hakkinen until he had a better car. He couldn't beat Senna without his team cheating. And he couldn't beat Mansell, Prost and Alonso, period.

There is a clear pattern from the pro-schumi camp - that if you say something in his favour, no matter how ridiculous, it holds as a statement of fact.

The reason is because you've spent so long deluding yourself you forget others are not.

37chevy

3,280 posts

104 months

Friday 29th November
quotequote all
Think people forget how good Montoya was in the Williams and how close he came to winning the championship. Probably the best driver never to win if IMHO....and he has won the Indy500 and Daytona 500 since leaving F1

sparta6

1,440 posts

48 months

Friday 29th November
quotequote all
A44RON said:
Schumacher beat Hakkinen in a fair fight in 2000 ,with no dodgy maneuvres, no cheating and no special Bridgestone tyres. And it was one of the best championship battles in history.
Sensational battle !
McLaren still had the edge and Mika was awesome.

MikeyC

701 posts

175 months

Friday 29th November
quotequote all
37chevy said:
A44RON said:
And why are posters still talking about the post-2010 Schumacher as if he was in his prime? It’s crazy. The fact he came out of a three year retirement to have a go in a different era shows some serious balls, and until Hamilton, Alonso or another Legend does something similar in the future and we see how that goes it’s a rather pointless comparison.
Well Lauda, Kimi, Prost all retired from F1, came back and did a better job than Schumacher on their return
A minor point (and I have the greatest repect for Mr Prost!) - but, Prost's 1993 WDC that he won, he had a massive car advantage
My metric is 1.35% in Quali (see my previous %'s on prev page) over the next best (on each race day) car eek
OK, he had to beat his younger teammate DH but then Hill had only a year under his belt

I agreed, Lauda did exceptionally well considering his age at the time (~35), but MSC was nearer 41 I think

E34-3.2

981 posts

27 months

Friday 29th November
quotequote all
Good video about the relationship between Ferrari and the FIA.

https://youtu.be/73QqHdy6cFs

Edited by E34-3.2 on Friday 29th November 16:45

RemarkLima

700 posts

160 months

Friday 29th November
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
TheDeuce said:
Yup. Two incredibly high achievers no doubt.

But one is more hero, the other more a bit fiendish. Whichever each person chooses as 'best' probably says more about that person than either driver smile
Agreed.

To some of us, integrity is still really, really important.
So Dick Darstardly vs Peter Perfect...

mattikake

4,756 posts

147 months

Saturday 30th November
quotequote all
RemarkLima said:
paulguitar said:
TheDeuce said:
Yup. Two incredibly high achievers no doubt.

But one is more hero, the other more a bit fiendish. Whichever each person chooses as 'best' probably says more about that person than either driver smile
Agreed.

To some of us, integrity is still really, really important.
So Dick Darstardly vs Peter Perfect...
D!ck v's cuunt?

37chevy

3,280 posts

104 months

Saturday 30th November
quotequote all
mattikake said:
RemarkLima said:
paulguitar said:
TheDeuce said:
Yup. Two incredibly high achievers no doubt.

But one is more hero, the other more a bit fiendish. Whichever each person chooses as 'best' probably says more about that person than either driver smile
Agreed.

To some of us, integrity is still really, really important.
So Dick Darstardly vs Peter Perfect...
D!ck v's cuunt?
Don’t think anyone is suggesting Lewis is Peter perfect but there are obvious differences about how far one driver was prepared to go to win

A44RON

171 posts

44 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
A44RON said:
Schumacher beat Hakkinen in a fair fight in 2000 ,with no dodgy maneuvres, no cheating and no special Bridgestone tyres. And it was one of the best championship battles in history.
Sensational battle !
McLaren still had the edge and Mika was awesome.
Very much so smile and Schumacher beat him in a fair fight with no ramming, no cheating, no tyre advantages, no dodgy moves. But it doesn't fit certain individuals agenda on here.

Without the broken leg mishap at Silverstone '99 he probably would've won the title then too and increased his race win numbers.

paulguitar

3,937 posts

61 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
A44RON said:
Very much so smile and Schumacher beat him in a fair fight with no ramming, no cheating, no tyre advantages, no dodgy moves. But it doesn't fit certain individuals agenda on here.
Not quite, the lap before Mika famously overtook him at Spa he nearly had him off the circuit, flat out, at Kemmel. It would have been a monstrous accident had Mika not managed to avoid it.

Mika took Michael to one side after that race and quietly informed him that he would never do anything like that to him again.

He never did.





Edited by paulguitar on Monday 2nd December 04:18

A44RON

171 posts

44 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
MikeyC said:
37chevy said:
A44RON said:
And why are posters still talking about the post-2010 Schumacher as if he was in his prime? It’s crazy. The fact he came out of a three year retirement to have a go in a different era shows some serious balls, and until Hamilton, Alonso or another Legend does something similar in the future and we see how that goes it’s a rather pointless comparison.
Well Lauda, Kimi, Prost all retired from F1, came back and did a better job than Schumacher on their return
A minor point (and I have the greatest repect for Mr Prost!) - but, Prost's 1993 WDC that he won, he had a massive car advantage
My metric is 1.35% in Quali (see my previous %'s on prev page) over the next best (on each race day) car eek
OK, he had to beat his younger teammate DH but then Hill had only a year under his belt

I agreed, Lauda did exceptionally well considering his age at the time (~35), but MSC was nearer 41 I think
Prost only took one year out and was 38 when he came back into by far the best car for 1993. Raikkonen was 32 when he came back for 2012.... difference much

A44RON

171 posts

44 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
A44RON said:
Very much so smile and Schumacher beat him in a fair fight with no ramming, no cheating, no tyre advantages, no dodgy moves. But it doesn't fit certain individuals agenda on here.
Not quite, the lap before Mika famously overtook him at Spa he nearly had him off the circuit, flat out, at Kemmel. It would have been a monstrous accident had Mika not managed to avoid it.

Mika took Michael to one side after that race and quietly informed him that he would never do anything like that to him again.

He never did.


Edited by paulguitar on Monday 2nd December 04:18
and Hakkinen rightfully won that race in a mega fight with arguably the best overtake we have ever seen

How about the rest of that season

paulguitar

3,937 posts

61 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
A44RON said:
paulguitar said:
A44RON said:
Very much so smile and Schumacher beat him in a fair fight with no ramming, no cheating, no tyre advantages, no dodgy moves. But it doesn't fit certain individuals agenda on here.
Not quite, the lap before Mika famously overtook him at Spa he nearly had him off the circuit, flat out, at Kemmel. It would have been a monstrous accident had Mika not managed to avoid it.

Mika took Michael to one side after that race and quietly informed him that he would never do anything like that to him again.

He never did.


Edited by paulguitar on Monday 2nd December 04:18
and Hakkinen rightfully won that race in a mega fight with arguably the best overtake we have ever seen

How about the rest of that season
We're going back a bit here, and so I don't now remember every race in detail by any means, but I recall it being a great time for F1 and an excellent, hard-fought season.

Schumacher had history with Mika (and many other drivers) going all the way back to F3. That made it extra sweet, Mika was a straightforward, thoroughly likeable and fair driver, a class act both on and off the track.

I always respected MS's ability (how could you not?) but he's just got way too many black marks in his book to overlook. It's frustrating because he was so good that really there was no need for it.
















Graveworm

2,816 posts

19 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
Alonso was asked if Hamilton was better than Schumacher yesterday. He replied that he is "At least equal to"

E-bmw

5,233 posts

100 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
A44RON said:
Without the broken leg mishap at Silverstone '99 he probably would've won the title then too and increased his race win numbers.
And without McLaren fuelling Lewis too short at Brazil in his rookie year he would have likely won in his rookie year, and now been equal to Schooey's 7 titles

If it weren't for Nico's slightly questionable tactics in his title winning season Lewis would likely have won that one to, and would now be on 8 titles.

Oh for "what ifs". wink

Exige77

4,044 posts

139 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
Graveworm said:
Alonso was asked if Hamilton was better than Schumacher yesterday. He replied that he is "At least equal to"
And as I’ve said a few times, Hamilton’s career is not over yet. He keeps pumping in great performances while this thread is running.

Yesterday might not have been that exciting but what a performance !!

Not a foot wrong, fast, controlled, taking care of his tyres, on original 3 power trains allowed, pole, fastest lap, lap record and great way to finish the season.

This is a man (and team) and the very top of their profession.


sparta6

1,440 posts

48 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
Exige77 said:
And as I’ve said a few times, Hamilton’s career is not over yet. He keeps pumping in great performances while this thread is running.

Yesterday might not have been that exciting but what a performance !!

Not a foot wrong, fast, controlled, taking care of his tyres, on original 3 power trains allowed, pole, fastest lap, lap record and great way to finish the season.

This is a man (and team) and the very top of their profession.
Great result for sure.

Bottas, plum last to 4th.
Mercedes remains THE car to have.

37chevy

3,280 posts

104 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Great result for sure.

Bottas, plum last to 4th.
Mercedes remains THE car to have.
To be fair the Ferrari or red bull could have gotten back to the top 5 too...

mattikake

4,756 posts

147 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
paulguitar said:
A44RON said:
paulguitar said:
A44RON said:
Very much so smile and Schumacher beat him in a fair fight with no ramming, no cheating, no tyre advantages, no dodgy moves. But it doesn't fit certain individuals agenda on here.
Not quite, the lap before Mika famously overtook him at Spa he nearly had him off the circuit, flat out, at Kemmel. It would have been a monstrous accident had Mika not managed to avoid it.

Mika took Michael to one side after that race and quietly informed him that he would never do anything like that to him again.

He never did.


Edited by paulguitar on Monday 2nd December 04:18
and Hakkinen rightfully won that race in a mega fight with arguably the best overtake we have ever seen

How about the rest of that season
We're going back a bit here, and so I don't now remember every race in detail by any means, but I recall it being a great time for F1 and an excellent, hard-fought season.

Schumacher had history with Mika (and many other drivers) going all the way back to F3. That made it extra sweet, Mika was a straightforward, thoroughly likeable and fair driver, a class act both on and off the track.

I always respected MS's ability (how could you not?) but he's just got way too many black marks in his book to overlook. It's frustrating because he was so good that really there was no need for it.
To be clear, the F3 history with Mika was at Macau. Mika won race 1 from pole, race 2 Mika found himself behind Schumacher and upon overtaking, Schumacher simply shoved him into the wall on the main straight. I remember Mika getting out throwing his steering wheel on the floor. He wasn't slightly impressed...

Schumacher repeated the same in spa only mika backed out of it before he put him on the grass. How the pro-schumi camp can call this a "fair" fight, and "no dodgy moves" i find truly staggering. He cheated, again, and dangerously, again.

Fine squeeze someone to the edge of the track, but not beyond it or move to deny space BEFORE the other driver gets there, but don't do both. Dirt, cheat, ram.

At least mika got to use zonta with relative ease to show Schumacher's distinctly average battling skills. (The move to take zonta on the inside by Schumacher was as plain as it was obvious)

sparta6

1,440 posts

48 months

Monday 2nd December
quotequote all
37chevy said:
sparta6 said:
Great result for sure.

Bottas, plum last to 4th.
Mercedes remains THE car to have.
To be fair the Ferrari or red bull could have gotten back to the top 5 too...
Perhaps - but not with Bottas behind the wheel wink