F1 better than before shock
Discussion
Interesting comparison made this weekend. Due to no saturday quali I was looking at youtub and f1 helpfully had put up the full 2005 suzuka race.
Noted that the commentary was a lot easier on the ear and it would be nice to have james allen back. Maybe if Sky poach the power sander from C4 it can happen.
As spoken in 2005 Allen also said it was one of the best races ever and while it was good with a few good Alonso overtakes there have been better races this year.
In conclusion F1 attracts sour faced it was better in the old days contrarians and they should be ignored.
Noted that the commentary was a lot easier on the ear and it would be nice to have james allen back. Maybe if Sky poach the power sander from C4 it can happen.
As spoken in 2005 Allen also said it was one of the best races ever and while it was good with a few good Alonso overtakes there have been better races this year.
In conclusion F1 attracts sour faced it was better in the old days contrarians and they should be ignored.
I have noticed that some of the 'back in the day' crowd do seem keen to display the depth of their F1 factual knowledge. But it's always fact after fact, no in depth views over what is current.
There is something that puts me off about humans acting as data repositories. Our slushy brains are pretty poor at retaining facts - capable of it, but it's not the best way to utilise ones noggin in a world where every F1 stat ever is but a few clicks away.
I saw a quiz team on their holidays in Greece last year, all of them wearing 'knowledge is power' t-shirts. If that's true, then everyone with an internet connection has access to the same power - but why were these people trying to fit as much of that as possible into their heads!?
I sometimes wonder if such folk become incapable of accepting what is new and current, as their party piece, out of date knowledge retention, has already absorbed all of their resources.
Some of the above may reflect upon my personal issues as an intolerant human
Yes, spectacular season so far. The fairly modest 2019 changes have made all the difference. I have noticed that overall there is also less complaining around here too. All very good signs for the full fat changes to regs for 2021 - which broadly are in the same vein as this year's changes, just much more aggressive.
There is something that puts me off about humans acting as data repositories. Our slushy brains are pretty poor at retaining facts - capable of it, but it's not the best way to utilise ones noggin in a world where every F1 stat ever is but a few clicks away.
I saw a quiz team on their holidays in Greece last year, all of them wearing 'knowledge is power' t-shirts. If that's true, then everyone with an internet connection has access to the same power - but why were these people trying to fit as much of that as possible into their heads!?
I sometimes wonder if such folk become incapable of accepting what is new and current, as their party piece, out of date knowledge retention, has already absorbed all of their resources.
Some of the above may reflect upon my personal issues as an intolerant human
Yes, spectacular season so far. The fairly modest 2019 changes have made all the difference. I have noticed that overall there is also less complaining around here too. All very good signs for the full fat changes to regs for 2021 - which broadly are in the same vein as this year's changes, just much more aggressive.
Evangelion said:
I do believe that F1 races of the past are better than those today.
But I also believe you have to go back further than 2005 to find them.
I don't disagree if we're talking solely about racing for racings sake.But I also believe you have to go back further than 2005 to find them.
The problem is, you also have to turn a blind eye to quite a lot of death and dismemberment in order to get the most out of it.
TheDeuce said:
I have noticed that some of the 'back in the day' crowd do seem keen to display the depth of their F1 factual knowledge. But it's always fact after fact, no in depth views over what is current.
There is something that puts me off about humans acting as data repositories. Our slushy brains are pretty poor at retaining facts - capable of it, but it's not the best way to utilise ones noggin in a world where every F1 stat ever is but a few clicks away.
I saw a quiz team on their holidays in Greece last year, all of them wearing 'knowledge is power' t-shirts. If that's true, then everyone with an internet connection has access to the same power - but why were these people trying to fit as much of that as possible into their heads!?
I sometimes wonder if such folk become incapable of accepting what is new and current, as their party piece, out of date knowledge retention, has already absorbed all of their resources.
Some of the above may reflect upon my personal issues as an intolerant human
Yes, spectacular season so far. The fairly modest 2019 changes have made all the difference. I have noticed that overall there is also less complaining around here too. All very good signs for the full fat changes to regs for 2021 - which broadly are in the same vein as this year's changes, just much more aggressive.
As some (most?) of the teams feel that the new rules will kill development with their restrictive nature and that once the cars are out in March 21 they won’t change much so whatever the pecking order is then it’ll likely stay that way, I’m not convinced it’ll be better than now. There is something that puts me off about humans acting as data repositories. Our slushy brains are pretty poor at retaining facts - capable of it, but it's not the best way to utilise ones noggin in a world where every F1 stat ever is but a few clicks away.
I saw a quiz team on their holidays in Greece last year, all of them wearing 'knowledge is power' t-shirts. If that's true, then everyone with an internet connection has access to the same power - but why were these people trying to fit as much of that as possible into their heads!?
I sometimes wonder if such folk become incapable of accepting what is new and current, as their party piece, out of date knowledge retention, has already absorbed all of their resources.
Some of the above may reflect upon my personal issues as an intolerant human
Yes, spectacular season so far. The fairly modest 2019 changes have made all the difference. I have noticed that overall there is also less complaining around here too. All very good signs for the full fat changes to regs for 2021 - which broadly are in the same vein as this year's changes, just much more aggressive.
The big three teams now expect to remain so, as they’re already working on their 2021 cars and will spend much more than the other teams before any restrictions on spending take effect, squeezing what they can from the regs.
There are other issues which have led to the current objections from the majority of the teams though Brawn’s not listening at the moment, rightly or wrongly.
I’m not saying it won’t be better than now but I wouldn’t be sure it will be, either. Time will tell.
REALIST123 said:
As some (most?) of the teams feel that the new rules will kill development with their restrictive nature and that once the cars are out in March 21 they won’t change much so whatever the pecking order is then it’ll likely stay that way, I’m not convinced it’ll be better than now.
The big three teams now expect to remain so, as they’re already working on their 2021 cars and will spend much more than the other teams before any restrictions on spending take effect, squeezing what they can from the regs.
There are other issues which have led to the current objections from the majority of the teams though Brawn’s not listening at the moment, rightly or wrongly.
I’m not saying it won’t be better than now but I wouldn’t be sure it will be, either. Time will tell.
I was talking about aero regs changes. As for the budget caps, I agree totally and am fearful it will attack the core of what F1 is. It's always been about the show of turning money and/or ingenuity into success on track. Both things are increasingly being limited.The big three teams now expect to remain so, as they’re already working on their 2021 cars and will spend much more than the other teams before any restrictions on spending take effect, squeezing what they can from the regs.
There are other issues which have led to the current objections from the majority of the teams though Brawn’s not listening at the moment, rightly or wrongly.
I’m not saying it won’t be better than now but I wouldn’t be sure it will be, either. Time will tell.
Still, open mind - perhaps the powers that be see a way this can work out well. It's hard to believe they haven't considered the impact of such fundamental changes - given the billions a mistake could cost them.
Fundoreen said:
Interesting comparison made this weekend. Due to no saturday quali I was looking at youtub and f1 helpfully had put up the full 2005 suzuka race.
Noted that the commentary was a lot easier on the ear and it would be nice to have james allen back. Maybe if Sky poach the power sander from C4 it can happen.
As spoken in 2005 Allen also said it was one of the best races ever and while it was good with a few good Alonso overtakes there have been better races this year.
In conclusion F1 attracts sour faced it was better in the old days contrarians and they should be ignored.
I watched that as well, and drew the same conclusion. Whilst there were a few excellent overtakes, it certainly didn't come across as fantastically exciting. I also found the helicopter tracking shots hilarious Noted that the commentary was a lot easier on the ear and it would be nice to have james allen back. Maybe if Sky poach the power sander from C4 it can happen.
As spoken in 2005 Allen also said it was one of the best races ever and while it was good with a few good Alonso overtakes there have been better races this year.
In conclusion F1 attracts sour faced it was better in the old days contrarians and they should be ignored.
Also the constant pitting / refueling meant that having a leaderboard up there seemed largely irrelevant as nobody was actually in a representative position on track for seemingly 90% of the race
I think it would be in F1's interest to do something similar at other races, pick a historic race at the same track (or country) and put it on youtube on the Saturday, perhaps help remind people we actually have it pretty good at the moment (engine noise aside)
TheDeuce said:
... The problem is, you also have to turn a blind eye to quite a lot of death and dismemberment in order to get the most out of it.
You also need to remember that never in the history of the planet has anyone ever been forced to race a F1 car against their will.Indeed, despite the risk of death and dismemberment, F1 drivers have always been at the short end of a very long queue
I've watched motorsport , including F1 , live since the early 70s. I am very conscious of rose tinted hindsight, but I also bristle at those who weren't there at the time telling me I am wrong to prefer something that happened a long time ago , relyig on tehri deep insight from some grainy Youtube footage . The point is that I prefer some aspects of F1 past not because it was old, but because it was better . Such as ?
- although I grew up in peak DFV by far the best sounding cars were the last iteration of V10s
- I miss manual gearchanges as it was key factor in discerning the sublime (a Stewart or Lauda ) from the ham-fisted (Jarier , Brambilla ) ,
- spectacle in terms of sheer brute power , barely under control - 1.5 turbos . I have never seen a braver lap than Rosberg 161mph at British GP 85
- paddock access - having once spent a happy 20minutes in a Ferrari pit garage with no pass, , no security and having literally brushed shoulders with drivers, the earlier the better
- trackside viewing - piss poor now , you are miles away at Silverstone
- close racing ...now is very close indeed, despite Mercedes' dominance , and the driving standards are as high , if not higher, than ever before (partly down to sim work , telemetry etc ) .
But here's the thing - despite being at Stowe in 87 (Mansell on Piquet) , and lots of legendary races (including near forgotten non championship races like Rosberg winning in a monsoon in a bloody Theodore, and G Villeneuve driving his T3 like it was a MK 2 Escort round Druids ) Grands Prix -live anyway - are just the most momentous events at which to be present, whatever the era , and however close the race. But on TV it's just telly ultimately , and it needs a close race to demand full attention - and because it's now become just another TV sport something has been lost.
- although I grew up in peak DFV by far the best sounding cars were the last iteration of V10s
- I miss manual gearchanges as it was key factor in discerning the sublime (a Stewart or Lauda ) from the ham-fisted (Jarier , Brambilla ) ,
- spectacle in terms of sheer brute power , barely under control - 1.5 turbos . I have never seen a braver lap than Rosberg 161mph at British GP 85
- paddock access - having once spent a happy 20minutes in a Ferrari pit garage with no pass, , no security and having literally brushed shoulders with drivers, the earlier the better
- trackside viewing - piss poor now , you are miles away at Silverstone
- close racing ...now is very close indeed, despite Mercedes' dominance , and the driving standards are as high , if not higher, than ever before (partly down to sim work , telemetry etc ) .
But here's the thing - despite being at Stowe in 87 (Mansell on Piquet) , and lots of legendary races (including near forgotten non championship races like Rosberg winning in a monsoon in a bloody Theodore, and G Villeneuve driving his T3 like it was a MK 2 Escort round Druids ) Grands Prix -live anyway - are just the most momentous events at which to be present, whatever the era , and however close the race. But on TV it's just telly ultimately , and it needs a close race to demand full attention - and because it's now become just another TV sport something has been lost.
Edited by coppice on Tuesday 15th October 17:06
The paddock access is something that is a massive shame to have lost. I remember my Dad talking about being parked 3 cars up from a driver (I can’t remember who) and standing by his car watching the driver sign a few autographs. Sadly that’s something I’m too young to have ever experienced. Luckily most “lesser” race meets still allow open access to the paddock.
Evangelion said:
TheDeuce said:
... The problem is, you also have to turn a blind eye to quite a lot of death and dismemberment in order to get the most out of it.
You also need to remember that never in the history of the planet has anyone ever been forced to race a F1 car against their will.Indeed, despite the risk of death and dismemberment, F1 drivers have always been at the short end of a very long queue
That's not to say that the old races aren't worth watching, I have watched all but the 'known to be dull' races over the last 30 years, in the last 10 years I would think - and several of the far older historically significant races too. I enjoy them because whatever tragedies occurred, my logic is that it's better if I can find some joy by watching years later. In my mind, you don't improve a tragic situation by blocking out a little joy from the world. But I think these days many others would watch a few races until they realised drivers would keep dying, be shocked/appalled and go and watch something else!
I've been a bit of an F1 nerd since my first GP, the 1966 at Brands.
I've seen some dire races in that time, and I've seen many thrillers. I didn't miss a race on TV, even when shown live, up until the Ferrari/Schumacher/Brawn domination era when the sport died for me.
Since then, we've had some thrilling seasons. Real edge of the seat stuff, with the WDC being won in the final race, on the final lap and the final corner.
This season has been a classic. I can't remember any season giving so many exciting and interesting races, and there's still some left. Despite the domination of Mercedes, the winner has had to work for the crown. The second string teams, now up with Merc, depending on circuit, have kept the thrill alive, and the midfield battles have been tremendous. We've had new blood coming in and fulfilling early promise.
We've got cars with so much power that they have to come out of corners on part throttle.
This season will go down as another dominated by Merc, but it's not because of a massively superior car. Ferrari and RB have led and won races, dominated qually and then, as often as not, thrown it away during the race.
I've never known a season like this one. It's tremendous. depending one your point of view, we have had seven, eight or nine thrilling races. Sunday we had a car taken out on the first lap, yet it was still exciting and very revealing. The week before I was so irritated that Vettle's Ferrari stopped on circuit that I swore, yet it again was exciting.
We've seen Hamilton and Verstappen develop from fast but flimsy drivers to world class, the former being the best F1 driver I've seen. I mean, how cool is that?
Anyone who hasn't thoroughly enjoyed this season, and so far it's only so far, then you can't appreciate F1.
And I'm an old fogy, who has seen Clark, Rindt, Hill snr and all the old greats. I still think Clark the most naturally gifted driver I've ever seen. But recent seasons show this to be the golden age of F1.
I've seen some dire races in that time, and I've seen many thrillers. I didn't miss a race on TV, even when shown live, up until the Ferrari/Schumacher/Brawn domination era when the sport died for me.
Since then, we've had some thrilling seasons. Real edge of the seat stuff, with the WDC being won in the final race, on the final lap and the final corner.
This season has been a classic. I can't remember any season giving so many exciting and interesting races, and there's still some left. Despite the domination of Mercedes, the winner has had to work for the crown. The second string teams, now up with Merc, depending on circuit, have kept the thrill alive, and the midfield battles have been tremendous. We've had new blood coming in and fulfilling early promise.
We've got cars with so much power that they have to come out of corners on part throttle.
This season will go down as another dominated by Merc, but it's not because of a massively superior car. Ferrari and RB have led and won races, dominated qually and then, as often as not, thrown it away during the race.
I've never known a season like this one. It's tremendous. depending one your point of view, we have had seven, eight or nine thrilling races. Sunday we had a car taken out on the first lap, yet it was still exciting and very revealing. The week before I was so irritated that Vettle's Ferrari stopped on circuit that I swore, yet it again was exciting.
We've seen Hamilton and Verstappen develop from fast but flimsy drivers to world class, the former being the best F1 driver I've seen. I mean, how cool is that?
Anyone who hasn't thoroughly enjoyed this season, and so far it's only so far, then you can't appreciate F1.
And I'm an old fogy, who has seen Clark, Rindt, Hill snr and all the old greats. I still think Clark the most naturally gifted driver I've ever seen. But recent seasons show this to be the golden age of F1.
StevieBee said:
Fundoreen said:
it would be nice to have james allen back
I believe this is the very first time those words have been used in that order on Pistonheads.Though I don't know why, he was a lot better than people give him credit for.
interloper said:
StevieBee said:
Fundoreen said:
it would be nice to have james allen back
I believe this is the very first time those words have been used in that order on Pistonheads.Though I don't know why, he was a lot better than people give him credit for.
DoubleD said:
interloper said:
StevieBee said:
Fundoreen said:
it would be nice to have james allen back
I believe this is the very first time those words have been used in that order on Pistonheads.Though I don't know why, he was a lot better than people give him credit for.
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