Ferrari: Enginegate

Ferrari: Enginegate

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Discussion

glazbagun

10,065 posts

144 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
Kraken said:
I thought the sensor measured the fuel flow at the injectors not at the point of exit from the tank?
Red Bull, at the very beginning of the hybrid era, got a slapdown for measuring fuel flow from the injectors rather than the FIA endorsed flow meter. RB argued that their method was more accurate, but lost.

https://www.racefans.net/2014/04/18/red-bulls-meas...


Edited by glazbagun on Tuesday 5th November 11:18

ChocolateFrog

6,457 posts

120 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
glazbagun said:
Kraken said:
I thought the sensor measured the fuel flow at the injectors not at the point of exit from the tank?
Red Bull, at the very beginning of the hybrid era, got a slapdown for measuring fuel flow from the injectors rather than the FIA endorsed flow meter. RB argued that their method was more accurate, but lost.

https://www.racefans.net/2014/04/18/red-bulls-meas...


Edited by glazbagun on Tuesday 5th November 11:18
From a layman's perspective it seems like the current system of measuring from the tank is open to way more potential for abuse than measuring at the injector.

Even so it seems unnecessary to me. What's wrong with saying you have 100kg of fuel use it however you want? 1000hp push to pass but it'll cost you a laps worth of fuel, better prey for that safety car.

Derek Smith

34,773 posts

195 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
On the positive side, whatever the legality, the last few races have been more exciting with the increase in Ferrari power. CLC was nowhere in Austin. I know he stopped for tyres in order to go for the fastest lap, but even if he hadn't he'd have been 45 seconds behind.

Shame; just when it got closer.

I know it's cheating, and I know it's a totally selfish point of view.

Angpozzuto

252 posts

56 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
ChocolateFrog said:
From a layman's perspective it seems like the current system of measuring from the tank is open to way more potential for abuse than measuring at the injector.

Even so it seems unnecessary to me. What's wrong with saying you have 100kg of fuel use it however you want? 1000hp push to pass but it'll cost you a laps worth of fuel, better prey for that safety car.
I've thought the same for a while, also I think the cars should be forced to use the full 100kgs of fuel for the race so it would encourage them to use more fuel rather than lift and coasting

Nickp82

2,008 posts

40 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
I was just reading about Mattio Binotta’s supposed heated words with Christian Horner after this weekends race and subsequent ‘voicing of opinions’.

I thought this picture was excellent, would love to know what Binotta is saying smile


bolidemichael

1,403 posts

148 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
Nickp82 said:
I was just reading about Mattio Binotta’s supposed heated words with Christian Horner after this weekends race and subsequent ‘voicing of opinions’.

I thought this picture was excellent, would love to know what Binotta is saying smile

Source link please?

Nickp82

2,008 posts

40 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
https://apple.news/A7nzwjtAfQcil5WS4YoWLKA

Source is Planet F1 Incase not all can view the above

williamp

16,646 posts

220 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
Nickp82 said:
I was just reading about Mattio Binotta’s supposed heated words with Christian Horner after this weekends race and subsequent ‘voicing of opinions’.

I thought this picture was excellent, would love to know what Binotta is saying smile

Ah you see...we 'av our drivers by the 'balls...

Big Nanas

302 posts

31 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
ChocolateFrog said:
Even so it seems unnecessary to me. What's wrong with saying you have 100kg of fuel use it however you want? 1000hp push to pass but it'll cost you a laps worth of fuel, better prey for that safety car.
I remember this being discussed at length when the regulations were announced. What would have happened is the teams would have had an arms race to produce qualifying monsters, as it doesn't matter about how much total fuel you have then.

bolidemichael

1,403 posts

148 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
williamp said:
Nickp82 said:
I was just reading about Mattio Binotta’s supposed heated words with Christian Horner after this weekends race and subsequent ‘voicing of opinions’.

I thought this picture was excellent, would love to know what Binotta is saying smile

Ah you see...we 'av our drivers by the 'balls...
One of the reader comments in this link is as follows:

"Finally Ferrari released the truth about the lack of pace. The freight from Mexico was incomplete. Ferrari could put the car together but had missing parts. The suspension did not arrive and they used the suspension of a Fiat 500 owned but one of the flag guys. In Leclerc's car they run with Lewis scooter's throttle. Apparently Lewis still mad about because he had to walk to the bathroom this time before the race.

Scootergate is coming because Lewis will sue.

This is more believable than saying Ferrari wasn"t cheating."

hehe

RemarkLima

681 posts

159 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
C2Red said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TarVSio8jqc


Makes very interesting viewing, and if true; was completely and utterly illegal, not even close to a grey area...IMHO.
Sorry, no speakers here, and not sure I want to watch a bloke speaking f with a camera up his nose for 20 minutes... Can someone summarise the relevant parts please?

Deesee

3,140 posts

30 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
RemarkLima said:
C2Red said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TarVSio8jqc


Makes very interesting viewing, and if true; was completely and utterly illegal, not even close to a grey area...IMHO.
Sorry, no speakers here, and not sure I want to watch a bloke speaking f with a camera up his nose for 20 minutes... Can someone summarise the relevant parts please?
The best bit by far was the speculation that they forgot to put the roll bar back on Vettels car when they changed the brakes in parc Ferme, hence the understeer and subsequent failure. Top insight.

RemarkLima

681 posts

159 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
Deesee said:
RemarkLima said:
C2Red said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TarVSio8jqc


Makes very interesting viewing, and if true; was completely and utterly illegal, not even close to a grey area...IMHO.
Sorry, no speakers here, and not sure I want to watch a bloke speaking f with a camera up his nose for 20 minutes... Can someone summarise the relevant parts please?
The best bit by far was the speculation that they forgot to put the roll bar back on Vettels car when they changed the brakes in parc Ferme, hence the understeer and subsequent failure. Top insight.
So he's trying to suggest that F1 mechanics were sat in the garage with an ARB and a pile of bolts wondering where they had came from?

Do F1 cars even have ARB's? Given they're so stiff, I'd have thought they'd not need them? And I can only see the two wishbones, a suspension rod and a steering arm but can't say I've looked for a roll bar...

I'm getting the impression he's trying to be "a social influencer"?

Deesee

3,140 posts

30 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
RemarkLima said:
So he's trying to suggest that F1 mechanics were sat in the garage with an ARB and a pile of bolts wondering where they had came from?

Do F1 cars even have ARB's? Given they're so stiff, I'd have thought they'd not need them? And I can only see the two wishbones, a suspension rod and a steering arm but can't say I've looked for a roll bar...

I'm getting the impression he's trying to be "a social influencer"?
No idea on the build of the car! I’m pretty sure he does.

He was involved on the test team at McLaren in the naughties, he’s got quite the resume in terms of drivers worked with.

He earns his money as a speaker now, social media is a good way of plugging his speaking as such, I’m pretty sure he was involved with Sky f1 (not sure if still is).

I’ve got a few old football friends on the speaking circuit, there’s a pretty penny in it.

TheDeuce

3,462 posts

13 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
RemarkLima said:
So he's trying to suggest that F1 mechanics were sat in the garage with an ARB and a pile of bolts wondering where they had came from?

Do F1 cars even have ARB's? Given they're so stiff, I'd have thought they'd not need them? And I can only see the two wishbones, a suspension rod and a steering arm but can't say I've looked for a roll bar...

I'm getting the impression he's trying to be "a social influencer"?
He was an engineer for McLaren years ago, so I guess if he says they have ARB's then they do.. I would assume they do need them, because stiff suspension won't help under cornering where so much more force is acting on the outside wheels compared to the inside.

Is his theory good? Dunno, it may be he's just floating a theory as one potential cause based on some experience from his F1 past - doesn't mean it's right or the most likely though!

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 5th November 14:49

Derek Smith

34,773 posts

195 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
RemarkLima said:
So he's trying to suggest that F1 mechanics were sat in the garage with an ARB and a pile of bolts wondering where they had came from?
We've all been there. I rebuilt a Triumph 650 pre-unit twin and had a thick washer left over. I later discovered it was a crank spacer. Later than that, I discovered I had bent conrods.


wibble cb

1,749 posts

154 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
C2Red said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TarVSio8jqc


Makes very interesting viewing, and if true; was completely and utterly illegal, not even close to a grey area...IMHO.
If true... I would have to agree. In fact it's out-right cheating if true. I wouldn't even class it as a clever or innovative work-around, just plain cheating to win in a very unsporting manner.

The risk of poor PR if it were proven still makes me think there is a good chance it's not true though. There are other factors which could explain their quali and race speed reduction.
So is this dieselgate in F1 ? The Redbull question seems to suggest that someone is gaming the sensor to interfere with the flow/sensor when its not being asked to prove the fuel flow, i.e. it passes the flow test when asked, a al VW diesel engines?

TheDeuce

3,462 posts

13 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
wibble cb said:
So is this dieselgate in F1 ? The Redbull question seems to suggest that someone is gaming the sensor to interfere with the flow/sensor when its not being asked to prove the fuel flow, i.e. it passes the flow test when asked, a al VW diesel engines?
It's not quite the same but that's not a bad analogy.

I doubt the fallout would be quite as bad as dieselgate though, people aren't going to that surprised if it turns out Ferrari have been a bit unsporting.. not exactly the first time!

jsf

14,404 posts

183 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
RemarkLima said:
Deesee said:
RemarkLima said:
C2Red said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TarVSio8jqc


Makes very interesting viewing, and if true; was completely and utterly illegal, not even close to a grey area...IMHO.
Sorry, no speakers here, and not sure I want to watch a bloke speaking f with a camera up his nose for 20 minutes... Can someone summarise the relevant parts please?
The best bit by far was the speculation that they forgot to put the roll bar back on Vettels car when they changed the brakes in parc Ferme, hence the understeer and subsequent failure. Top insight.
So he's trying to suggest that F1 mechanics were sat in the garage with an ARB and a pile of bolts wondering where they had came from?

Do F1 cars even have ARB's? Given they're so stiff, I'd have thought they'd not need them? And I can only see the two wishbones, a suspension rod and a steering arm but can't say I've looked for a roll bar...

I'm getting the impression he's trying to be "a social influencer"?
The vast majority of racecars still use an ARB, it's in the form of a torsion bar buried inside the tub at the front and in the gearbox at the rear on a modern F1 car, they slide in and out with the use of a tool that winds into the centre of the bar. They also have an inerter unit that runs in parallel with the ARB torsion bar, which is similar to a damper but reacts to frequency rather than displacement.

It's not unheard of for either the torsen bar to break or a link in the mechanism to break.

A driver would feel a missing ARB on the out lap, it makes a huge difference, so i don't buy the bar missing, it's quite possible it broke on lap one though, or It could also be a broken inerter unit, both would give you understeer.

If the rear roll control system failed, then you could have excess suspension travel that took the suspension flex joints beyond their designed angle, if you do that they will fatigue fail, which would take a few goes at it before it gave up. So a few laps on one specific corner where its loaded up more than anywhere else before failing is what you would expect to see.

TheDeuce

3,462 posts

13 months

Tuesday 5th November
quotequote all
jsf said:
The vast majority of racecars still use an ARB, it's in the form of a torsion bar buried inside the tub at the front and in the gearbox at the rear on a modern F1 car, they slide in and out with the use of a tool that winds into the centre of the bar. They also have an inerter unit that runs in parallel with the ARB torsion bar, which is similar to a damper but reacts to frequency rather than displacement.

It's not unheard of for either the torsen bar to break or a link in the mechanism to break.

A driver would feel a missing ARB on the out lap, it makes a huge difference, so i don't buy the bar missing, it's quite possible it broke on lap one though, or It could also be a broken inerter unit, both would give you understeer.

If the rear roll control system failed, then you could have excess suspension travel that took the suspension flex joints beyond their designed angle, if you do that they will fatigue fail, which would take a few goes at it before it gave up. So a few laps on one specific corner where its loaded up more than anywhere else before failing is what you would expect to see.
I assume such components are made, like most F1 components, only to be as strong as they need to be. If so, do you think it's possible that Ferrari were running higher down force than usual in order to stop their car skipping over the bumps and losing the rear (as in FP) and that this added force, combined with a couple of decent kerb knocks, was enough to cause the failure?

Increased downforce could also be the reason, or at least part of the reason.. for their reduced speed in quali and race. And to me, the car looked far less skittish on the track quali onwards.


Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 5th November 17:33