Ferrari: Enginegate

Ferrari: Enginegate

Author
Discussion

BrettMRC

1,844 posts

121 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Yes, Tobi Gruner, the man in the pit lane for AMuS.
Thanks smile

Wondering why none of the other usual media suspects have piped up yet?

Going to be good fun if Honda is the other one and naughtiness is confirmed! hehe

EDLT

15,284 posts

167 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
So they've waited until the cars slowed down, likely because the dodgy parts have been removed, before checking them for dodgy parts?

Doink

1,544 posts

108 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
BrettMRC said:
Deesee said:
Yes, Tobi Gruner, the man in the pit lane for AMuS.
Thanks smile

Wondering why none of the other usual media suspects have piped up yet?

Going to be good fun if Honda is the other one and naughtiness is confirmed! hehe
See here.....

https://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/Sport/F1


SturdyHSV

7,539 posts

128 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
EDLT said:
So they've waited until the cars slowed down, likely because the dodgy parts have been removed, before checking them for dodgy parts?
Well they couldn't very well investigate it whilst they were still (allegedly) cheating could they, how bad would that look?! hehe

vaud

38,908 posts

116 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
EDLT said:
So they've waited until the cars slowed down, likely because the dodgy parts have been removed, before checking them for dodgy parts?
Easier to remove the parts once the cars have actually stopped.

Robberto

45 posts

43 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
I have no engineering knowledge so bear that in mind...

If they’ve taken fuel lines from between the flow rate sensor and the engine could it be something as simple as larger diameter lines to the engine to act almost as a reserve tank? Maybe have the ECU keep pushing fuel through at below the maximum allowed rate under braking to be held in the lines and then forced out under maximum flow through the sensor so increasing the overall amount of fuel going to the engine under full throttle while keeping below the max flow rate through the sensor? I have no idea if that’s even how fluid dynamics works but something as simple as that could fly under the radar if everyone is looking for something massively complex everywhere else, say in a double battery design or something? A modern day version of Smokey Yunick‘s fuel lines in 1960s NASCAR, if you will.

Backing up fuel under braking and releasing it under full throttle would explain their power advantage out of low speed corners.

As I said, I have zero technical knowledge so please treat it as such laugh

nikaiyo2

3,259 posts

156 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
Robberto said:
I have no engineering knowledge so bear that in mind...

If they’ve taken fuel lines from between the flow rate sensor and the engine could it be something as simple as larger diameter lines to the engine to act almost as a reserve tank? Maybe have the ECU keep pushing fuel through at below the maximum allowed rate under braking to be held in the lines and then forced out under maximum flow through the sensor so increasing the overall amount of fuel going to the engine under full throttle while keeping below the max flow rate through the sensor? I have no idea if that’s even how fluid dynamics works but something as simple as that could fly under the radar if everyone is looking for something massively complex everywhere else, say in a double battery design or something? A modern day version of Smokey Yunick‘s fuel lines in 1960s NASCAR, if you will.

Backing up fuel under braking and releasing it under full throttle would explain their power advantage out of low speed corners.

As I said, I have zero technical knowledge so please treat it as such laugh
I think NASCAR has more fluid relationship with rule bending, next year they could try another Smokey Yunick trick and build a 7/8 scale car biggrin

'If you don't cheat, you look like an idiot. If you do it and you don't get caught, you look like a hero. If you do it and get caught, you look like a dope. Put me in the category where I belong,' According to Darrell Waltrip (maybe Alain Prost level of achievement in NASCAR for non NASCAR people)

Megaflow

7,346 posts

186 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
Robberto said:
I have no engineering knowledge so bear that in mind...

If they’ve taken fuel lines from between the flow rate sensor and the engine could it be something as simple as larger diameter lines to the engine to act almost as a reserve tank? Maybe have the ECU keep pushing fuel through at below the maximum allowed rate under braking to be held in the lines and then forced out under maximum flow through the sensor so increasing the overall amount of fuel going to the engine under full throttle while keeping below the max flow rate through the sensor? I have no idea if that’s even how fluid dynamics works but something as simple as that could fly under the radar if everyone is looking for something massively complex everywhere else, say in a double battery design or something? A modern day version of Smokey Yunick‘s fuel lines in 1960s NASCAR, if you will.

Backing up fuel under braking and releasing it under full throttle would explain their power advantage out of low speed corners.

As I said, I have zero technical knowledge so please treat it as such laugh
I thought they were limited to a total fuel system volume after the flow sensor of 250ml.

C2Red

3,315 posts

214 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
Megaflow said:
Robberto said:
I have no engineering knowledge so bear that in mind...

If they’ve taken fuel lines from between the flow rate sensor and the engine could it be something as simple as larger diameter lines to the engine to act almost as a reserve tank? Maybe have the ECU keep pushing fuel through at below the maximum allowed rate under braking to be held in the lines and then forced out under maximum flow through the sensor so increasing the overall amount of fuel going to the engine under full throttle while keeping below the max flow rate through the sensor? I have no idea if that’s even how fluid dynamics works but something as simple as that could fly under the radar if everyone is looking for something massively complex everywhere else, say in a double battery design or something? A modern day version of Smokey Yunick‘s fuel lines in 1960s NASCAR, if you will.

Backing up fuel under braking and releasing it under full throttle would explain their power advantage out of low speed corners.

As I said, I have zero technical knowledge so please treat it as such laugh
I thought they were limited to a total fuel system volume after the flow sensor of 250ml.
Measured statically or dynamically?

Megaflow

7,346 posts

186 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
C2Red said:
Megaflow said:
Robberto said:
I have no engineering knowledge so bear that in mind...

If they’ve taken fuel lines from between the flow rate sensor and the engine could it be something as simple as larger diameter lines to the engine to act almost as a reserve tank? Maybe have the ECU keep pushing fuel through at below the maximum allowed rate under braking to be held in the lines and then forced out under maximum flow through the sensor so increasing the overall amount of fuel going to the engine under full throttle while keeping below the max flow rate through the sensor? I have no idea if that’s even how fluid dynamics works but something as simple as that could fly under the radar if everyone is looking for something massively complex everywhere else, say in a double battery design or something? A modern day version of Smokey Yunick‘s fuel lines in 1960s NASCAR, if you will.

Backing up fuel under braking and releasing it under full throttle would explain their power advantage out of low speed corners.

As I said, I have zero technical knowledge so please treat it as such laugh
I thought they were limited to a total fuel system volume after the flow sensor of 250ml.
Measured statically or dynamically?
Interesting question. I assumed statically, but I don’t know what the regs says.

I’ll be back...

Reading 5.10 of the regulations says nothing about volume of fuel after the sensor, some further digging reveals it is a 2021 rule, where they will be limited to a maximum of 250ml outside the survival cell.

But, article 5.10.5 is interesting, it says:

5.10.5 said:
Any device, system or procedure the purpose and/or effect of which is to increase the flow rate or to store and recycle fuel after the measurement point is prohibited
Why is quite clear in its intention, but very grey on specifics.


Edited by Megaflow on Thursday 21st November 12:06

Doink

1,544 posts

108 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
So it's a Honda that's been seized which it had to be really given their sudden upturn in speed, are the FIA suddenly sympathetic towards Mercedes using them as the benchmark seeing as they've engineered the fastest most reliable engine in the hybrid era so using them as a guide I'm wondering anything abnormally better deserves the attention of the FIA, after 6 years when the engines are meant to be converging and hp gains are now measured in single figures for an engine to find 50hp in one dollop is huge and deserves a closer look, if it were Mercedes to have found that I'd too expect it to be looked at

Deesee

4,837 posts

44 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
Doink said:
So it's a Honda that's been seized which it had to be really given their sudden upturn in speed, are the FIA suddenly sympathetic towards Mercedes using them as the benchmark seeing as they've engineered the fastest most reliable engine in the hybrid era so using them as a guide I'm wondering anything abnormally better deserves the attention of the FIA, after 6 years when the engines are meant to be converging and hp gains are now measured in single figures for an engine to find 50hp in one dollop is huge and deserves a closer look, if it were Mercedes to have found that I'd too expect it to be looked at
I’ve just read an Alfa/Sauber, Ferrari and Red Bull, nothing formally confirmed yet.

I imagine the dyno at Brackley will do the benchmarking hehe, (& poor old Renault)!

37chevy

3,280 posts

117 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
Deesee said:
I’ve just read an Alfa/Sauber, Ferrari and Red Bull, nothing formally confirmed yet.

I imagine the dyno at Brackley will do the benchmarking hehe, (& poor old Renault)!
I suspect they've seized the red bull parts so as to be seen fair to Ferrari etc.

red bull are hardly going to be asking for TDs to try and reduce Ferraris advantage and be doing the same thing

HTP99

17,673 posts

101 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
Now Renault were effectively given a light tap on the wrist for their brake thing, if Ferrari are seen cheating with their fuel flow or whatever it is, what is likely to happen to them?

Deesee

4,837 posts

44 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Deesee said:
I’ve just read an Alfa/Sauber, Ferrari and Red Bull, nothing formally confirmed yet.

I imagine the dyno at Brackley will do the benchmarking hehe, (& poor old Renault)!
I suspect they've seized the red bull parts so as to be seen fair to Ferrari etc.

red bull are hardly going to be asking for TDs to try and reduce Ferraris advantage and be doing the same thing
If they have been playing games/bluffing/ creating a smoke screen, perhaps they’ve been caught out.



Deesee

4,837 posts

44 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
HTP99 said:
Now Renault were effectively given a light tap on the wrist for their brake thing, if Ferrari are seen cheating with their fuel flow or whatever it is, what is likely to happen to them?
DQ or double points!

(I honestly think that The fuel flow it’s not what they are/should be looking at)..

Flooble

2,486 posts

61 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
HTP99 said:
Now Renault were effectively given a light tap on the wrist for their brake thing, if Ferrari are seen cheating with their fuel flow or whatever it is, what is likely to happen to them?
McLaren will get a fine and be excluded from the Championship

cuprabob

9,376 posts

175 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
Flooble said:
McLaren will get a fine and be excluded from the Championship
Ron, is that you? smile

Doink

1,544 posts

108 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
I'm 99% certain this has been covered and that there's a reg for it but I ask because it's been reported that the FIA want a second flow meter fitting just before the engine, so is it possible Ferrari are/were stockpiling fuel when off throttle i.e. like through a corner when they are least likely to be overtaken and then deploying the saved fuel for straight line speed, in theory this could work I guess but pretty sure this has been closed off? Have Ferrari found another way for the entire fuel system to be seized and why a second flow sensor, the FIA already did this didn't they?

Kraken

1,607 posts

161 months

Thursday 21st November 2019
quotequote all
The whole fuel flow thing is one of the most stupid ideas they ever came up with. Just specify the size of the tank and let them do what they want from there. More stupid restrictions there are the more money is wasted trying to find ways around them.