Ferrari: Enginegate

Ferrari: Enginegate

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SturdyHSV

6,715 posts

115 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
Deesee said:
TheDeuce said:
That's an interesting way of looking at it - and possibly correct. I had assumed that their rapid development of the Honda PU this season was simply due to the fact it was very obvious they were going to end up 3rd this year quite early on, no real threat of placing lower than 3rd either, so they could afford to use the rest of the season as a PU development season. Essentially just keep pushing it to find the limits - they can afford the ensuing parts penalties so why not?
Yes 3rd is where they should have possibly ended up at the beginning of the season.. Now.. I’d say they should have been better..

I’d say Red Bull have massively underdelivered in the championship when you look at the package they have now.

They are putting huge demands on Honda to get more performance (which Honda have delivered), while Red Bull are playing about staging zero gravity pit stops (although impressive, look it up).

Max and his entourage/camp have their demands, and seemingly they can be placated by the odd win and a rare pole, they should have found a driver who can at least replicate Max’s style (Hulk is the closest according to Dani Ric).

Honda are pretty sure there PU is the 2nd strongest in terms of power on the grid now.

End of season reviews may be kind on Red Bull, Honda will have questions they want answering.. after all they’ve had two podiums with the sister team.
Looking at Max's performance, arguably the Red Bull has delivered quite well in terms of car package, and arguably if not for the second driver issues the 2nd place in the championship would have been much more of a possibility.

It was acnowledged by Horner near the start of the year that Honda were in fact over-deliverering and that development on the car would have to improve to do them justice. I have had the impression that Honda's development is very much a team effort and something Honda are pushing equally hard for on their own terms, but naturally it's hard to know the real behind the scenes opinions on the matter as ultimately a veneer of professional harmony has to be presented (at least at this early stage)

The idea that a stunt organised by the marketing department is in some way slowing development of the car is a bit silly in my opinion.

Whilst they've had 2 podiums with STR, which they'll be very pleased with, I'm sure they're intelligent enough to know that those were largely because of unusual circumstances and not exactly representative.

I suspect this season, being the first with Honda, was always expected to be a development season ready for 2020, hence all the power units and driver playing about.

SturdyHSV

6,715 posts

115 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Wouldn't it be amazing to see the power curves for all the PU's? smile.
Surely something everyone can agree on smile

Deesee

3,243 posts

31 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
I think their season could/should have been stronger too - but Gasly really didn't do well in the car and pretty much cemented their 3rd place fate. Even with two Max's, or as close as you can get, the damage was done sadly. I think from that point on, it became a development year, which in another way of thinking, Honda might be very grateful for too.

As for the resultant PU they now have, it's a beast. There is plenty of evidence to suggest it actually is the second most powerful, their high rake, high down-force car is certainly no slouch anymore.. Wouldn't it be amazing to see the power curves for all the PU's? smile

It's also proved, when they haven't been experimenting with it, to be perfectly reliable too. Impressive stuff from Honda.
Gasly, struggled with the concept of the car Max just drove around it (a sign of a great, but has inherent problems, see Alonso/Vandoorne).

I think Albion will do his bit next year, Merc have at times been the 3rd best car on the grid, if Red Bull get it together they could have a WDC car, (if there not 2021 focused)..

SturdyHSV

6,715 posts

115 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Gasly, struggled with the concept of the car Max just drove around it (a sign of a great, but has inherent problems, see Alonso/Vandoorne).

I think Albion will do his bit next year, Merc have at times been the 3rd best car on the grid, if Red Bull get it together they could have a WDC car, (if there not 2021 focused)..
I think the RB15 is considered quite 'oversteery' compared to TR14 being 'understeery' in general balance.

The STR car better suits Gasly's more aggressive driving style, he found the RB car hard to adapt his driving style to, whereas Albon is the opposite, the RB suits his natural style better and he had to adapt to the STR car.

It has been said quite a few times that the front wing regulation changes caught RB out, in that they had a much more significant impact on the car's overall performance than they had expected, which meant they were on the back foot for the early part of the season. Not ideal for sure, but I don't imagine it's something Honda will be getting concerned about.

With quite static regs, I think you could well be right with regards to RB's title challenge next year being stronger

Deesee

3,243 posts

31 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
SturdyHSV said:
TheDeuce said:
Wouldn't it be amazing to see the power curves for all the PU's? smile.
Surely something everyone can agree on smile
Have seen something, but could well be hung drawn and quartered... (and would need to find it).. not sure if I could post it without breaking IP rules (so let’s not).

Some of the clever kids on other (more anonymous) sites have used (excuse my lack of tech/it knowledge here) ‘python’ ? to extract the telemetry from F1 tv and created graphs, using RPM, Speeds, braking, lift/coast, the use of DRS, and overlay this on a circuit map so it shows corner entry/exit speeds, min and max speed s in the power zones, these are from the FIA timing loops.

However I’m sure this is more drag/aero focused, as the power curves I’ve seen show Ferrari, Honda, Merc, Renault within say 2/10ths on a average lap, and let’s be fair the two Williams are more than 2/10ths different on a Saturday hehe

Deesee

3,243 posts

31 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
SturdyHSV said:
I think the RB15 is considered quite 'oversteery' compared to TR14 being 'understeery' in general balance.

The STR car better suits Gasly's more aggressive driving style, he found the RB car hard to adapt his driving style to, whereas Albon is the opposite, the RB suits his natural style better and he had to adapt to the STR car.

It has been said quite a few times that the front wing regulation changes caught RB out, in that they had a much more significant impact on the car's overall performance than they had expected, which meant they were on the back foot for the early part of the season. Not ideal for sure, but I don't imagine it's something Honda will be getting concerned about.

With quite static regs, I think you could well be right with regards to RB's title challenge next year being stronger
The red bull front wing is a talking point of the season, it did catch them out, they have had to raise the ride height of the front end for bumps/curbs at some tracks. I can’t see them making the same mistake twice.

(Although other teams ie Renault are running much more ‘rake’ and as are toro Rosso).

Here’s some specs from Melbourne.



SturdyHSV

6,715 posts

115 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Some of the clever kids on other (more anonymous) sites have used (excuse my lack of tech/it knowledge here) ‘python’ ? to extract the telemetry from F1 tv and created graphs, using RPM, Speeds, braking, lift/coast, the use of DRS, and overlay this on a circuit map so it shows corner entry/exit speeds, min and max speed s in the power zones, these are from the FIA timing loops.
It is brilliant the efforts people will go to for some additional insight smile

Whilst a great bit of fun I don't know whether they get enough information that's publicly available to produce meaningful data sadly, but good on them for doing so smile

I mean even just taking into account which PU is being used, the mileage on each component, engine modes etc. it's a lot of data to be reverse engineering and claiming any degree of accuracy.

Cool though.

janesmith1950

4,158 posts

43 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
I'd be surprised if Honda continue beyond 2020. Their board has always been cautious about the cost of F1 and the prevailing winds are electric.

TheDeuce

3,712 posts

14 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
I'd be surprised if Honda continue beyond 2020. Their board has always been cautious about the cost of F1 and the prevailing winds are electric.
If that's a reason for them to leave F1, then by extension it's a reason for them to leave the business of making cars full stop. If they want to be in F1 as it very gradually transitions to electric (not remotely possible at this stage, and unlikely for many years), then they are no less likely to than anyone else I wouldn't think. They might in fact be more likely to stay and look forward to such a future, as it's quite possible that the first batteries with a high enough energy density to power an F1 car will be produced by Honda, presumably only Honda for quite some time, depending on how effective their patents are.

All speculation of course - but I think whatever their plans may be, they're at least more likely to stay if the results are good and improving, which I'm hopeful will be the case.

janesmith1950

4,158 posts

43 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
If that's a reason for them to leave F1, then by extension it's a reason for them to leave the business of making cars full stop
I've no idea where you get this bullst. No idea at all.

Yes, that makes so much sense. If the Honda board view F1 as too expensive, they must then logically stop producing cars.

A bit like the only reasonable explanation for Ferrari's sudden explosion in straight-line speed only possibly being applicable to the chassis.

Or that because it's Ferrari they couldn't actually purposely cheat, on principle, in case they got caught.

Megaflow

6,826 posts

173 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
Deesee said:
One things for sure the GPS data has one team (red bull) grasping at straws.

Ferrari have an incredibly effective aero (low downforce minimal drag) package.

Merc are happy there’s no engine ‘magic’, why cant Red Bull.
IIRC there was quite a lot of mud thrown at red bull during 2010-2013, could it be a lot of that came from Ferrari and red bull have now seen their chance to get even?

TheDeuce

3,712 posts

14 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
janesmith1950 said:
TheDeuce said:
If that's a reason for them to leave F1, then by extension it's a reason for them to leave the business of making cars full stop
I've no idea where you get this bullst. No idea at all.

Yes, that makes so much sense. If the Honda board view F1 as too expensive, they must then logically stop producing cars.

A bit like the only reasonable explanation for Ferrari's sudden explosion in straight-line speed only possibly being applicable to the chassis.

Or that because it's Ferrari they couldn't actually purposely cheat, on principle, in case they got caught.
I made that comment in reference to your comment that an F1 electric future could put Honda off in some way, which it shouldn't do as they have the very same electric future to manage in their main business making road cars.

I have NEVER said that Ferrari's straight line speed is 'only possibly' due to the chassis. I have never said Ferrari aren't capable of, or willing to cheat. In my view on this specific occasion the cheat would be too big to risk for whatever advantage they might see. That is my view, it's OK if you disagree. It's also my view that aero probably accounts for what is being debated, that does not mean I'm an idiot that can see that as the only possible explanation.

I think you and I have more than enough that we don't agree about (which is fine), without you going one step further and disagreeing with things I haven't even said.

Deesee

3,243 posts

31 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
Megaflow said:
Deesee said:
One things for sure the GPS data has one team (red bull) grasping at straws.

Ferrari have an incredibly effective aero (low downforce minimal drag) package.

Merc are happy there’s no engine ‘magic’, why cant Red Bull.
IIRC there was quite a lot of mud thrown at red bull during 2010-2013, could it be a lot of that came from Ferrari and red bull have now seen their chance to get even?
No Red Bull took on (a few staff) from super aguri, (and a tiny bit of Honda gp), and made the diffuser work, for them..(worked for brawn GP for 8/9 races, but the fundamentals for the future was the Super Aguri diffuser).

Ferrari like now have there own philosophy on aero and drag..

On there own...

With no comparables..

TheDeuce

3,712 posts

14 months

Monday 25th November
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Ferrari like now have there own philosophy on aero and drag..
Indeed:



biggrin

Deesee

3,243 posts

31 months

Thursday 28th November
quotequote all
Looks like Ferrari are ok from the testing.

What has transpired is that they have a superior electrical system (and relative advanced mapping) that delivers an additional 20kw over the other tested systems, this combined with with the aero efficiency's (low drag & downforce concept) is the understanding for the straight line speed.

Its estimated they now have an overall "hp" advantage of 12 to Merc & 37 to Honda, however the Spec 3 introduced was 25 hp more than the Spec 2 hence the "jump" in performance on introduction, and the relative jump in performance from Honda & now above Mercedes.

As soon as something remotely 'english' is published I'll put up a link.

budgie smuggler

3,906 posts

107 months

Thursday 28th November
quotequote all
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fuel-flow-secon...

motorsport said:
Formula 1 teams will be required to run a second fuel-flow sensor next season as the FIA escalates its efforts to prevent the rules being exploited for performance gains.

The governing body investigated a trio of fuel systems after the Brazilian Grand Prix, one believed to be from a Ferrari, another from a Ferrari customer team and a third from a non-Ferrari powered car.

On Wednesday, the FIA issued its latest technical directive – a third in four weeks – instructing teams they will be required to add a second FIA-controlled sensor in 2020.

TheDeuce

3,712 posts

14 months

Thursday 28th November
quotequote all
Deesee said:
Looks like Ferrari are ok from the testing.

What has transpired is that they have a superior electrical system (and relative advanced mapping) that delivers an additional 20kw over the other tested systems, this combined with with the aero efficiency's (low drag & downforce concept) is the understanding for the straight line speed.

Its estimated they now have an overall "hp" advantage of 12 to Merc & 37 to Honda, however the Spec 3 introduced was 25 hp more than the Spec 2 hence the "jump" in performance on introduction, and the relative jump in performance from Honda & now above Mercedes.

As soon as something remotely 'english' is published I'll put up a link.
The extra 20kw probably explains their corner exit launch speed down the straights then. All makes sense - the hp figures are so close that as they're just estimates anyway, I don't think it makes much of a difference. All about the level of drag.

Zoobeef

4,128 posts

106 months

Thursday 28th November
quotequote all
budgie smuggler said:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fuel-flow-secon...

motorsport said:
Formula 1 teams will be required to run a second fuel-flow sensor next season as the FIA escalates its efforts to prevent the rules being exploited for performance gains.

The governing body investigated a trio of fuel systems after the Brazilian Grand Prix, one believed to be from a Ferrari, another from a Ferrari customer team and a third from a non-Ferrari powered car.

On Wednesday, the FIA issued its latest technical directive – a third in four weeks – instructing teams they will be required to add a second FIA-controlled sensor in 2020.
You have to question why they need to if nothing was found. Something may have been removed before/after texas which is where this directive has come from.

TheDeuce

3,712 posts

14 months

Thursday 28th November
quotequote all
Zoobeef said:
budgie smuggler said:
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/fuel-flow-secon...

motorsport said:
Formula 1 teams will be required to run a second fuel-flow sensor next season as the FIA escalates its efforts to prevent the rules being exploited for performance gains.

The governing body investigated a trio of fuel systems after the Brazilian Grand Prix, one believed to be from a Ferrari, another from a Ferrari customer team and a third from a non-Ferrari powered car.

On Wednesday, the FIA issued its latest technical directive – a third in four weeks – instructing teams they will be required to add a second FIA-controlled sensor in 2020.
You have to question why they need to if nothing was found. Something may have been removed before/after texas which is where this directive has come from.
It's F1, if there is a possible way to cheat revealed it gets shut down. That's why red bull asked for clarification and that's why the FIA have both clarified the rules and closed the door with the extra sensor. They would take the same steps each time regardless of whether cheating had actually occurred or not.


janesmith1950

4,158 posts

43 months

Thursday 28th November
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
All about the level of drag.
But it isn't, is it. It's extra HP (irrespective of legality) giving low speed advantage (early straights) allied to low drag (high speed advantage).

Perfectly explains the jump after the summer break being predominantly an engine boost, as suspected.