Ferrari: Enginegate
Discussion
Duns said:
If oil can potentially leak into the intake from an air to oil intercooler or turbo, it would make sense to monitor it's oil levels, as part of oil consumption limits.
Oil burn rate differs all the time though, knowing the level has dropped wouldn't prove or disprove anything. Not in a concrete manner at least.Edited by Duns on Sunday 17th November 13:30
For some apparent reason, I'm sure nothing to do with the engine and they've changed nothing on the engine and they have nothing to hide and their engine is legal and they will sue anyone who says their engine isn't legal, the Ferrari in qualifying trim wasn't much more than a 10th faster up the hill than he wheezy old Honda in the Red Bull.
I'm sure Ferrari are just running a no downforce aero package to achieve that and there should be no hint that they've had to do anything with the engine, because they haven't. Nothing. Nada.
Nothing to see here.
I'm sure Ferrari are just running a no downforce aero package to achieve that and there should be no hint that they've had to do anything with the engine, because they haven't. Nothing. Nada.
Nothing to see here.
TheDeuce said:
Duns said:
If oil can potentially leak into the intake from an air to oil intercooler or turbo, it would make sense to monitor it's oil levels, as part of oil consumption limits.
Oil burn rate differs all the time though, knowing the level has dropped wouldn't prove or disprove anything. Not in a concrete manner at least.Edited by Duns on Sunday 17th November 13:30
Make the flow rates in the cooler and therefore pressures; engine rev/demand dependant, that would be difficult to detect under normal circumstances I think...
Deesee said:
Latest technical directive
https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/11947087257659...
Honda and Merc pulling at straws..
Seems silly burning antifreeze or combustable oils from the coolant.https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/11947087257659...
Honda and Merc pulling at straws..
EDIT: Then again, it's not surprising if F1 teams were looking for other fuel sources.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 17th November 14:47
C2Red said:
I wonder if you could have a very clever fracture system, that opened up a predetermined size of fracture on the intercooler, that would then deliver a predetermined quantity of oil at a predetermined time, say when the pressure in the cooler reached a certain pressure to coincide with demand.
Make the flow rates in the cooler and therefore pressures; engine rev/demand dependant, that would be difficult to detect under normal circumstances I think...
You mean using the expansion of metals with heat? Like a more sophisticated version of the Toyota WRC turbo cheat, only with fuelling?Make the flow rates in the cooler and therefore pressures; engine rev/demand dependant, that would be difficult to detect under normal circumstances I think...
glazbagun said:
You mean using the expansion of metals with heat? Like a more sophisticated version of the Toyota WRC turbo cheat, only with fuelling?
The Toyota WRC cheat didn't use heat to open up an orifice, they clamped the orifice open, this sprung shut when you removed the clamp.It's completely against the rules to introduce anything from anywhere by any method that increases the combustible content of the air/fuel mix, blatant cheating. If Ferrari were introducing oil via the IC cooling system, that would be a very serious offence.
jsf said:
The Toyota WRC cheat didn't use heat to open up an orifice, they clamped the orifice open, this sprung shut when you removed the clamp.
It's completely against the rules to introduce anything from anywhere by any method that increases the combustible content of the air/fuel mix, blatant cheating. If Ferrari were introducing oil via the IC cooling system, that would be a very serious offence.
If Ferrari were caught up to no good the FIA would have no choice but to fine Red Bull $100m and disqualify Mercedes from the Championship. It's completely against the rules to introduce anything from anywhere by any method that increases the combustible content of the air/fuel mix, blatant cheating. If Ferrari were introducing oil via the IC cooling system, that would be a very serious offence.
Duns said:
Deesee said:
Latest technical directive
https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/11947087257659...
Honda and Merc pulling at straws..
Seems silly burning antifreeze or combustable oils from the coolant.https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/11947087257659...
Honda and Merc pulling at straws..
EDIT: Then again, it's not surprising if F1 teams were looking for other combustable fuel sources.
Edited by Duns on Sunday 17th November 14:36
jsf said:
glazbagun said:
You mean using the expansion of metals with heat? Like a more sophisticated version of the Toyota WRC turbo cheat, only with fuelling?
The Toyota WRC cheat didn't use heat to open up an orifice, they clamped the orifice open, this sprung shut when you removed the clamp.It's completely against the rules to introduce anything from anywhere by any method that increases the combustible content of the air/fuel mix, blatant cheating. If Ferrari were introducing oil via the IC cooling system, that would be a very serious offence.
It doesn’t make it right, it just exists
Edited by C2Red on Sunday 17th November 15:37
jsf said:
glazbagun said:
You mean using the expansion of metals with heat? Like a more sophisticated version of the Toyota WRC turbo cheat, only with fuelling?
The Toyota WRC cheat didn't use heat to open up an orifice, they clamped the orifice open, this sprung shut when you removed the clamp.
I can't help it, I remain dubious. If they were cheating in the kind of ways speculated it would be a huge deal, very embarrassing for them and would put an enormous strain on their 'special relationship' with FOM and the FIA.
The stakes seem too high to believe it. Even though.. the FIA have now stepped up their investigation. But with the stakes so high I suppose they would have investigate to (hopefully) disprove cheating as much as to prove it.
One way or another, at least it looks like we will soon know what, if anything has been happening.
If it were true.. what would it mean for next season? Beyond the scandal and disqualification this season, it would also mean that their car is nowhere near as competitive (legally) as it has appeared. They wouldn't be as close to Mercedes as they have been, and probably wouldn't be as fast as the red bulls either. Assuming that the 'cheat' was buying them enough extra pace for them to risk cheating in the first place. All just hypothetical musings...
The stakes seem too high to believe it. Even though.. the FIA have now stepped up their investigation. But with the stakes so high I suppose they would have investigate to (hopefully) disprove cheating as much as to prove it.
One way or another, at least it looks like we will soon know what, if anything has been happening.
If it were true.. what would it mean for next season? Beyond the scandal and disqualification this season, it would also mean that their car is nowhere near as competitive (legally) as it has appeared. They wouldn't be as close to Mercedes as they have been, and probably wouldn't be as fast as the red bulls either. Assuming that the 'cheat' was buying them enough extra pace for them to risk cheating in the first place. All just hypothetical musings...
Megaflow said:
Ferrari petrol systems confiscatedThe FIA is serious. It has confiscated part of the petrol system from three cars in Brazil. among them was Ferrari. The parts are to be examined in peace. This will finally stop the discussions about possible tricks.
Ferrari left Interlagos with his head lowered. If the two own drivers drive each other into the car, this is for each team the biggest accident to be assumed. Until the disastrous collision, the Ferrari were on a podium course. Although they had no chance of winning, they were much better than in Austin.
Team boss Mattia Binotto saw a parallel to Mexico, where they only had the third-fastest car in the race, but at least not as hopelessly as at the GP USA. However, the competition saw Ferrari's performance as further proof that something had changed since the FIA's technical directives on possible tricks on the engine started to circulate.
Ferrari denies that of course. The red cars showed again with best times in the power sectors 1 and 3 that they are the strongest force in the field on the straights, but the lead was not as drastic as before two races. Compared to Red Bull Honda the advantage in the full throttle passages shrank to 0.15 seconds, compared to Mercedes to double.
Binotto explained this as in Austin with the chosen car set-up. Therefore the loss of time in the curves was less than usual, which was to the detriment of the advantage on the straights.
No protest, but nevertheless investigation
Red Bull had declared in Brazil that they would not submit a protest against Ferrari. No matter what happens. That was now a matter for Mercedes. "They know better than we do anyway," mocked sport boss Helmut Marko. There was no reason to protest against the world champion. First of all, you achieved what you wanted.
Nevertheless, the topic is not off the table. Now the FIA is suddenly stepping on the gas. After the association had long taken the position that the doubters had to protest if they wished to have the red cars examined, they now apparently want to clear up the rumours by themselves. They only poison the climate in the paddock.
That is why FIA commissioners in Brazil have apparently confiscated parts of the petrol system for three cars. A Ferrari, a Ferrari customer team and a car from a non-Ferrari team. So you can make comparisons.
FIA wants clarification
The disassembled parts were fuel lines located between the flow sensor and the engine. In this area, the request submitted by Red Bull suspected cheating, with the result that more fuel was injected than allowed by the regulations.
The test will be carried out in FIA laboratories and will probably take a few days. If we don't hear anything until the season finale in Abu Dhabi, we have to assume that everything was fine.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
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