Ferrari

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TheDeuce

21,274 posts

65 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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Piginapoke said:
I'd be a bit careful about the whole Ferrari disaster line- I think it suits them to come in as underdogs.

Cars are quite similar to last year (apart from Racing Point) and Ferrari chassis was fine- it won't have turned into a dog overnight.
The Ferrari this year is far from similar - it's an entirely new concept. They went for aero performance and fluffed it. Ferrari aren't in the habit of describing any of their own cars as a bit crap, unless they absolutely and obviously are.

It's a dog. Not an underdog... and under-powered-overweight-dog perhaps wink

Piginapoke

4,736 posts

184 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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TheDeuce said:
The Ferrari this year is far from similar - it's an entirely new concept. They went for aero performance and fluffed it. Ferrari aren't in the habit of describing any of their own cars as a bit crap, unless they absolutely and obviously are.

It's a dog. Not an underdog... and under-powered-overweight-dog perhaps wink
Where are you getting the new concept from? It’s exactly the same with detail changes. No team will start a new development route in the last year of a rule set, that would be nuts (see McLaren in 2013)

TheDeuce

21,274 posts

65 months

Thursday 2nd July 2020
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Piginapoke said:
Where are you getting the new concept from? It’s exactly the same with detail changes. No team will start a new development route in the last year of a rule set, that would be nuts (see McLaren in 2013)
Fair enough. Not a ground up new concept but a reimagining of the car from an aero and downforce pov, as opposed to slippery and a focus on outright power (for obvious reasons).

The point is that their focus has been all about achieving something that hasn't worked - and in proving hasn't worked they've made fairly significant changes to the car. I imagine more than just 'detail changes' in many cases. To change the nature of the car, there must have been some deeper revisions required.

Anyway, to your original point - even if it was essentially the same car, that car with the reduced power isn't a good championship prospect at all. They were getting hassled by red bull even with the extra power last year. They have now said that after the two Austrian races they will bring out their 'new' car that follows a different direction. It's up for debate how much changed counts as a 'new car', or concept. But I'm guessing that side by side the two won't be all that similar.

Cabinet Enforcer

496 posts

225 months

Sunday 5th July 2020
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Well, the dismal qually performance in Austria and not just by Ferrari but both customer teams suggests very strongly to me that the cheating has been going on for several seasons. It's pretty clear that it is not just an error in aero design direction at Ferrari which is responsible for the lack of competitiveness.

HAAS is particular, are 0.6 down, remember that they basically didn't advance last year during the season, you would reasonably expect them to have found 2 or 3 tenths at least with the freedom to make more fundamental change during the off season.

sparta6

3,689 posts

99 months

Sunday 5th July 2020
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Ferrari should hire Ron Dennis.

He's available biggrin

CoolHands

18,496 posts

194 months

Sunday 5th July 2020
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Why are haas down 0.6 but ferrari down 0.9 on last year? Doesn’t make sense, if the power unit is the reason why would ferrari lose more

SpudLink

5,670 posts

191 months

Sunday 5th July 2020
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CoolHands said:
Why are haas down 0.6 but ferrari down 0.9 on last year? Doesn’t make sense, if the power unit is the reason why would ferrari lose more
Haas not made aware of how to optimise the cheat codes. Possibly.

TheDeuce

21,274 posts

65 months

Sunday 5th July 2020
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CoolHands said:
Why are haas down 0.6 but ferrari down 0.9 on last year? Doesn’t make sense, if the power unit is the reason why would ferrari lose more
From what Ferrari themselves say... They tried to focus on new aero to get performance in light of the power drop. They didn't do a very good job (draggy car). They've said the car doesn't perform as expected, correlation is off what their CFD predicted. This is why they've decided to start over with 'car b' which we'll see in Hungary. Probably.

trackdemon

12,149 posts

260 months

Sunday 5th July 2020
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I'm sure it's just a coincidence that only Ferrari PU runners have suffered significant pace deficit this year. Pure coincidence. Absolutely definitely, positively nothing related to an FIA 'settlement'.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCOyNxqo295/?igshid=10...

Cabinet Enforcer

496 posts

225 months

Sunday 5th July 2020
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CoolHands said:
Why are haas down 0.6 but ferrari down 0.9 on last year? Doesn’t make sense, if the power unit is the reason why would ferrari lose more
As I said, HAAS were pants last year, they have probably found 3-4 tenths in their car, maybe more, and lost a second in the PU like Fez and Alfa.

CoolHands

18,496 posts

194 months

Sunday 5th July 2020
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Yeah actually I see what you mean now I’ve thought about it

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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Yeah, the PU isn't the only performance related thing that changed on all three cars, but it is likely the only common change. Aero or chassis changes could account for the differences.

anonymous-user

53 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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From memory on an article I read this morning, Binotto said the car is losing 3 tenths to Mercedes on the corners and 7 on the straights. His position was that the forthcoming changes were designed to address the 3 tenths but wouldn't alter the straight line deficit.

If that's true, Ferrari are pretty much f-u-c- kayed for the rest of the season, unless they can squeeze a miraculous performance upgrade into the name of reliability. They could probably do with a few Ferrari powered DNFs over the next couple of races...

TheDeuce

21,274 posts

65 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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Bit of an update on Ferrari's plans to not have a crap car for too long.. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.binotto...

Although to me, it looks like they're being very clear that power is the biggest issue they have, and that actually can't be improved until the 2021 season. And they'll still be stuck with the same basic car in 2021, which itself hasn't been amazing, except when it had the dodgy extra power..

Where does this leave them then? With no way of getting more power, extra speed will come from less drag = less downforce (unless they can enhance ground effect significantly, which is very limited by regs anyway), it's hard to see how they can be competitive as such, vs the other top teams. They seem to have ended in a place that their potential for development is limited to such an extent that they're a bit stuck.

For reference Mercedes were around half a second quicker in quali over last year at Austria. Ferrari around 1 second slower. That's some chasm to bridge..



Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 6th July 16:22

confucuis

1,303 posts

123 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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What really pisses me off is that it's the same fking line again from them that they have used since 2008, that they need to improve the car, but they're bringing developments however there will be no easy wins.

Every bloody year. With their resources, the money they get from F1, the preferential treatment and they still can't build a car.

TheDeuce

21,274 posts

65 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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confucuis said:
What really pisses me off is that it's the same fking line again from them that they have used since 2008, that they need to improve the car, but they're bringing developments however there will be no easy wins.

Every bloody year. With their resources, the money they get from F1, the preferential treatment and they still can't build a car.
I know it's weird. They seem royally fked this time though as one way or another their development opportunity is severely limited until 2022 season - at which point the MASSIVE budget they have failed to convert in to great results for so long now, is going to be largely neutralised in any case. All in all this has not been a good era for them. Or maybe more accurately, they have not been a good team for this era.

They nearly showed some strength in 2018 but then somehow as they developed their car it became worse - in the end they 'fixed it' by putting it back to it's season starting configuration, the season was gone by that point though.

I have no real theory as to how they struggle with all their resources and experience to convert £3-400m a year in to a car that behaves as expected and does what they desire of it.

Maybe a disheveled Ferrari fan will have a theory as to why this is.. It's certainly an interesting question.

faa77

1,728 posts

70 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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Is it because they're quite isolated/not as good access to engineering talent as the 7 teams based in the UK?

vdn

8,905 posts

202 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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confucuis said:
What really pisses me off is that it's the same fking line again from them that they have used since 2008, that they need to improve the car, but they're bringing developments however there will be no easy wins.

Every bloody year. With their resources, the money they get from F1, the preferential treatment and they still can't build a car.
yes



PanicBuyingBogRoll

1,936 posts

61 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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faa77 said:
Is it because they're quite isolated/not as good access to engineering talent as the 7 teams based in the UK?
Maybe they need a diversity drive idea

S1KRR

12,548 posts

211 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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faa77 said:
Is it because they're quite isolated/not as good access to engineering talent as the 7 teams based in the UK?
Didn't Coulthard say exactly that on Saturday. (Paraphraasng) They need to move part of the team to England to get away from the "Italian-ness" of Maranello and start being pragmatic and serious.


TBH, it seems as simple as not having a strong boss. If they hired Christian Horner, and he was given carte balance. They'd be right up there. Its why it worked when you had Brawn., Todt there.

At the moment it's all a little wishy washy. I mean look at how they let Vettel know they'd decided against him. That's not how a Multi Billion company should operate!