Discussion
S1KRR said:
Didn't Coulthard say exactly that on Saturday. (Paraphraasng) They need to move part of the team to England to get away from the "Italian-ness" of Maranello and start being pragmatic and serious.
TBH, it seems as simple as not having a strong boss. If they hired Christian Horner, and he was given carte balance. They'd be right up there. Its why it worked when you had Brawn., Todt there.
At the moment it's all a little wishy washy. I mean look at how they let Vettel know they'd decided against him. That's not how a Multi Billion company should operate!
Makes sense of course.. but I don't think the Italians or the Ferrari brand want their operation to become 'less Italian'. Shipping in a brawn or todt equivalent and letting them have full control could be good ahead of 2022 though... And the top 5 tea members salaries are excluded from the cost cap, could be a decent way to spend the £150m excess budget they'll have then.TBH, it seems as simple as not having a strong boss. If they hired Christian Horner, and he was given carte balance. They'd be right up there. Its why it worked when you had Brawn., Todt there.
At the moment it's all a little wishy washy. I mean look at how they let Vettel know they'd decided against him. That's not how a Multi Billion company should operate!
S1KRR said:
Didn't Coulthard say exactly that on Saturday. (Paraphraasng) They need to move part of the team to England to get away from the "Italian-ness" of Maranello and start being pragmatic and serious.
TBH, it seems as simple as not having a strong boss. If they hired Christian Horner, and he was given carte balance. They'd be right up there. Its why it worked when you had Brawn., Todt there.
At the moment it's all a little wishy washy. I mean look at how they let Vettel know they'd decided against him. That's not how a Multi Billion company should operate!
Exactly the discussions I had with locals in Maranello last year. They all said the reason they are poor is they are too Italian. TBH, it seems as simple as not having a strong boss. If they hired Christian Horner, and he was given carte balance. They'd be right up there. Its why it worked when you had Brawn., Todt there.
At the moment it's all a little wishy washy. I mean look at how they let Vettel know they'd decided against him. That's not how a Multi Billion company should operate!
TheDeuce said:
S1KRR said:
Didn't Coulthard say exactly that on Saturday. (Paraphraasng) They need to move part of the team to England to get away from the "Italian-ness" of Maranello and start being pragmatic and serious.
TBH, it seems as simple as not having a strong boss. If they hired Christian Horner, and he was given carte balance. They'd be right up there. Its why it worked when you had Brawn., Todt there.
At the moment it's all a little wishy washy. I mean look at how they let Vettel know they'd decided against him. That's not how a Multi Billion company should operate!
Makes sense of course.. but I don't think the Italians or the Ferrari brand want their operation to become 'less Italian'. Shipping in a brawn or todt equivalent and letting them have full control could be good ahead of 2022 though... And the top 5 tea members salaries are excluded from the cost cap, could be a decent way to spend the £150m excess budget they'll have then.TBH, it seems as simple as not having a strong boss. If they hired Christian Horner, and he was given carte balance. They'd be right up there. Its why it worked when you had Brawn., Todt there.
At the moment it's all a little wishy washy. I mean look at how they let Vettel know they'd decided against him. That's not how a Multi Billion company should operate!
Todt was successful because he had Montezemelo in his corner, keeping his nerve and backing him for over 7 years before they started properly winning again.
One senses that since LDM left, no-one has done that.
They need to back Binotto, if he's their man, and give him some time.
I think the Sainz/LeClerc combo is good on the driver side. They now need to back it up with reinforcements on the engineering team ready for 2022 or even possibly the rule change after that.
To use Schumacher/Todt as a timeline example - MS won his first title for Ferrari in 2000. He joined the team in 1996, Todt joined in 1993.....
Muzzer79 said:
The problems are much more deep-rooted than just the team boss. They've had 3 team bosses in 6 years.
Todt was successful because he had Montezemelo in his corner, keeping his nerve and backing him for over 7 years before they started properly winning again.
One senses that since LDM left, no-one has done that.
They need to back Binotto, if he's their man, and give him some time.
I think the Sainz/LeClerc combo is good on the driver side. They now need to back it up with reinforcements on the engineering team ready for 2022 or even possibly the rule change after that.
To use Schumacher/Todt as a timeline example - MS won his first title for Ferrari in 2000. He joined the team in 1996, Todt joined in 1993.....
Given where they are - and the limited potential to turn that around this year or next, it does feel that now would be a good time to start assembling a team to focus squarely on 2022 and beyond.Todt was successful because he had Montezemelo in his corner, keeping his nerve and backing him for over 7 years before they started properly winning again.
One senses that since LDM left, no-one has done that.
They need to back Binotto, if he's their man, and give him some time.
I think the Sainz/LeClerc combo is good on the driver side. They now need to back it up with reinforcements on the engineering team ready for 2022 or even possibly the rule change after that.
To use Schumacher/Todt as a timeline example - MS won his first title for Ferrari in 2000. He joined the team in 1996, Todt joined in 1993.....
But as you say, they have to get the right people in the right places AND then back off and leave them to run the team, including probably make some major changes and no doubt upset quite a few of the people already there.
Dreaming... I suppose if Toto did go there we could at least be fairly confident he would only be going there is he was convinced he would have total free reign with no interference. I'm not saying I think that is on the cards though!
S1KRR said:
faa77 said:
Is it because they're quite isolated/not as good access to engineering talent as the 7 teams based in the UK?
Didn't Coulthard say exactly that on Saturday. (Paraphraasng) They need to move part of the team to England to get away from the "Italian-ness" of Maranello and start being pragmatic and serious.A UK element for Ferrari makes sense, but they are probably still mindful of the Barnard experiment.
Looking at that timeline example they started from a very low base in 1993 - no wins at all, then one each in 94 and 95.
By 96 they were already an outside bet for a championship and 97 almost went to Schumacher - his torpedo manoeuvre not quite paying off this time around.
If we were to take history as a guide then a revised technical department this year would make an impact by 2023. But they are not in as much of a mess as they were in the early 90s so you could expect things to improve by 2022.
By 96 they were already an outside bet for a championship and 97 almost went to Schumacher - his torpedo manoeuvre not quite paying off this time around.
If we were to take history as a guide then a revised technical department this year would make an impact by 2023. But they are not in as much of a mess as they were in the early 90s so you could expect things to improve by 2022.
Ferrari in italy is an example of a credible F1 world championship.
Moving every team to that bit between the m1 and oxford is nice for all the people after nice jobs.
Lets just run all the races at silverstone and just call it the annual 20 race silverstone cup.
You suspect F1 and other advanced engineering in the uk is a revolving door.
Other nations want to keep this sort of capability as well wether they win races or not.
Ferrari dont do too bad considering the forces ganging up against them in the uk.
Moving every team to that bit between the m1 and oxford is nice for all the people after nice jobs.
Lets just run all the races at silverstone and just call it the annual 20 race silverstone cup.
You suspect F1 and other advanced engineering in the uk is a revolving door.
Other nations want to keep this sort of capability as well wether they win races or not.
Ferrari dont do too bad considering the forces ganging up against them in the uk.
kambites said:
Can you imagine the field day the Italian media would have if the Ferrari F1 team moved their R&D to the UK? 
I just can't see it. Besides, they don't want to win for the sake of winning, they want to win as Italians, with a genuine Ferrari car made in Maranello. The whole point of buying a Ferrari road car is that it's Italian and built with passion and flair.. Their F1 program has to mirror that. The F1 cars must roll out of Maranello each season while the townsfolk run around whooping and grabbing their tinkles in excitement 
Flooble said:
Looking at that timeline example they started from a very low base in 1993 - no wins at all, then one each in 94 and 95.
By 96 they were already an outside bet for a championship and 97 almost went to Schumacher - his torpedo manoeuvre not quite paying off this time around.
If we were to take history as a guide then a revised technical department this year would make an impact by 2023. But they are not in as much of a mess as they were in the early 90s so you could expect things to improve by 2022.
Probably longer.By 96 they were already an outside bet for a championship and 97 almost went to Schumacher - his torpedo manoeuvre not quite paying off this time around.
If we were to take history as a guide then a revised technical department this year would make an impact by 2023. But they are not in as much of a mess as they were in the early 90s so you could expect things to improve by 2022.
The Barnard Tub was a dog, Irvine was quite inpolite about its characteristics.
Somehow Schumacher could hustle it to an occasional win, but it really took 5 years for them to develop a car that was a true contender in 2000. That was a great battle with Mika.
There were no bespoke tyres until 2001.
sparta6 said:
Probably longer.
The Barnard Tub was a dog, Irvine was quite inpolite about its characteristics.
Somehow Schumacher could hustle it to an occasional win, but it really took 5 years for them to develop a car that was a true contender in 2000. That was a great battle with Mika.
There were no bespoke tyres until 2001.
John Barnard maintains that Schumacher really rated the 1995 (v12) Ferrari, thinks he could have won the championship with it. As you say, the 1996 car looked a dog and went about as fast.The Barnard Tub was a dog, Irvine was quite inpolite about its characteristics.
Somehow Schumacher could hustle it to an occasional win, but it really took 5 years for them to develop a car that was a true contender in 2000. That was a great battle with Mika.
There were no bespoke tyres until 2001.
To be fair to Barnard, he designed the F310 to comply with the new, post Senna driver's head protection regulations, so it was a barn door to drag around. Other cars (Williams FW18) only really complied with the letter of the regulations and were much more streamlined as a result.
Flooble said:
Looking at that timeline example they started from a very low base in 1993 - no wins at all, then one each in 94 and 95.
By 96 they were already an outside bet for a championship and 97 almost went to Schumacher - his torpedo manoeuvre not quite paying off this time around.
If we were to take history as a guide then a revised technical department this year would make an impact by 2023. But they are not in as much of a mess as they were in the early 90s so you could expect things to improve by 2022.
Really? By 96 they were already an outside bet for a championship and 97 almost went to Schumacher - his torpedo manoeuvre not quite paying off this time around.
If we were to take history as a guide then a revised technical department this year would make an impact by 2023. But they are not in as much of a mess as they were in the early 90s so you could expect things to improve by 2022.
I'm not so sure......
Piginapoke said:
sparta6 said:
Probably longer.
The Barnard Tub was a dog, Irvine was quite inpolite about its characteristics.
Somehow Schumacher could hustle it to an occasional win, but it really took 5 years for them to develop a car that was a true contender in 2000. That was a great battle with Mika.
There were no bespoke tyres until 2001.
John Barnard maintains that Schumacher really rated the 1995 (v12) Ferrari, thinks he could have won the championship with it. As you say, the 1996 car looked a dog and went about as fast.The Barnard Tub was a dog, Irvine was quite inpolite about its characteristics.
Somehow Schumacher could hustle it to an occasional win, but it really took 5 years for them to develop a car that was a true contender in 2000. That was a great battle with Mika.
There were no bespoke tyres until 2001.
To be fair to Barnard, he designed the F310 to comply with the new, post Senna driver's head protection regulations, so it was a barn door to drag around. Other cars (Williams FW18) only really complied with the letter of the regulations and were much more streamlined as a result.
Schumacher rated the V12 as he could manipulate the torque steer.
Yes the '96 Bath Tub was a dog and Irvine just wanted to dump it at the scrap yard
Mark Priestley's take on where Ferrari are at, why and what to realistically expect: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTOXfJzVUcQ
He seems as bemused as the rest of us that they enjoy such great resources and advantages and have delivered such a weak car - he gets quite animated at one point..
Worth a watch.
He seems as bemused as the rest of us that they enjoy such great resources and advantages and have delivered such a weak car - he gets quite animated at one point..
Worth a watch.
Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 7th July 20:44
SOMEHOW I don’t think Lewis Hamilton will being going to Ferrari… …just an inkling, BUT I could be wrong…
'I've not heard a word from them': Lewis Hamilton takes swipe at rivals Ferrari…
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/artic...
Some readers comments;
Rodders, Romford, United Kingdom, moments ago
It is not for 'them' to report to Hamilton.
Craigallison2011, Manchester, United Kingdom, 10 minutes ago
Does Lewis think that he's MORE important than everyone else and THEY HAVE to run their thoughts by him now? That chip is becoming very burdensome!
PJM001, Sandbach, United Kingdom, 6 minutes ago
Totally wrong to compel people to kneel to a subversive marxist organisation.
Ruined England, Maidstonegianthousingestate, United Kingdom, moments ago
Loves his salary, loves his country that made it possible for him. And then lives abroad because he doesnt want to give something back. And now is playing the victim card. Idiot.
PG, Herts, 9 minutes ago
If, and only if, this article is correct, Lewis Hamilton is exerting a form of bullying. Was this the reason he was allegedly suspended from John Henry Newman Secondary School?
Blaster Bates, Bell End, United Kingdom, moments ago
I say good on Ferrari.
Colin, Colchester, 11 minutes ago
Perhaps they don't think they are accountable for anything and I would suggest that they certainly are not accountable to you.
Edward Thunderpants, Curry Rivel, United Kingdom, 3 hours ago
Hey Lewis its not your own personal political platform go stand for parliament if thats your bag. F1 is a sport to entertain us not bore us to death with politics
As I said, SOMEHOW I don’t think Lewis Hamilton will being going to Ferrari… …just an inkling, BUT I could be wrong…
'I've not heard a word from them': Lewis Hamilton takes swipe at rivals Ferrari…
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/artic...
Some readers comments;
Rodders, Romford, United Kingdom, moments ago
It is not for 'them' to report to Hamilton.
Craigallison2011, Manchester, United Kingdom, 10 minutes ago
Does Lewis think that he's MORE important than everyone else and THEY HAVE to run their thoughts by him now? That chip is becoming very burdensome!
PJM001, Sandbach, United Kingdom, 6 minutes ago
Totally wrong to compel people to kneel to a subversive marxist organisation.
Ruined England, Maidstonegianthousingestate, United Kingdom, moments ago
Loves his salary, loves his country that made it possible for him. And then lives abroad because he doesnt want to give something back. And now is playing the victim card. Idiot.
PG, Herts, 9 minutes ago
If, and only if, this article is correct, Lewis Hamilton is exerting a form of bullying. Was this the reason he was allegedly suspended from John Henry Newman Secondary School?
Blaster Bates, Bell End, United Kingdom, moments ago
I say good on Ferrari.
Colin, Colchester, 11 minutes ago
Perhaps they don't think they are accountable for anything and I would suggest that they certainly are not accountable to you.
Edward Thunderpants, Curry Rivel, United Kingdom, 3 hours ago
Hey Lewis its not your own personal political platform go stand for parliament if thats your bag. F1 is a sport to entertain us not bore us to death with politics
As I said, SOMEHOW I don’t think Lewis Hamilton will being going to Ferrari… …just an inkling, BUT I could be wrong…
Even if Lewis was a perfect fit for Ferrari.. why would he go there?
A team that can only use their own PU and have pretty much proven that in the hybrid era, they can't make a (legal) competitive one.
On just about every level Ferrari have shown their outdated approach to F1 is no longer effective in championship terms.
A team that can only use their own PU and have pretty much proven that in the hybrid era, they can't make a (legal) competitive one.
On just about every level Ferrari have shown their outdated approach to F1 is no longer effective in championship terms.
Fortitude said:
SOMEHOW I don’t think Lewis Hamilton will being going to Ferrari… …just an inkling, BUT I could be wrong…
'I've not heard a word from them': Lewis Hamilton takes swipe at rivals Ferrari…
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/artic...
Some readers comments;
Rodders, Romford, United Kingdom, moments ago
It is not for 'them' to report to Hamilton.
Craigallison2011, Manchester, United Kingdom, 10 minutes ago
Does Lewis think that he's MORE important than everyone else and THEY HAVE to run their thoughts by him now? That chip is becoming very burdensome!
PJM001, Sandbach, United Kingdom, 6 minutes ago
Totally wrong to compel people to kneel to a subversive marxist organisation.
Ruined England, Maidstonegianthousingestate, United Kingdom, moments ago
Loves his salary, loves his country that made it possible for him. And then lives abroad because he doesnt want to give something back. And now is playing the victim card. Idiot.
PG, Herts, 9 minutes ago
If, and only if, this article is correct, Lewis Hamilton is exerting a form of bullying. Was this the reason he was allegedly suspended from John Henry Newman Secondary School?
Blaster Bates, Bell End, United Kingdom, moments ago
I say good on Ferrari.
Colin, Colchester, 11 minutes ago
Perhaps they don't think they are accountable for anything and I would suggest that they certainly are not accountable to you.
Edward Thunderpants, Curry Rivel, United Kingdom, 3 hours ago
Hey Lewis its not your own personal political platform go stand for parliament if thats your bag. F1 is a sport to entertain us not bore us to death with politics
As I said, SOMEHOW I don’t think Lewis Hamilton will being going to Ferrari… …just an inkling, BUT I could be wrong…
You can not begin to imagine how little I value views expressed in the Daily Mail comments section. 'I've not heard a word from them': Lewis Hamilton takes swipe at rivals Ferrari…
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/artic...
Some readers comments;
Rodders, Romford, United Kingdom, moments ago
It is not for 'them' to report to Hamilton.
Craigallison2011, Manchester, United Kingdom, 10 minutes ago
Does Lewis think that he's MORE important than everyone else and THEY HAVE to run their thoughts by him now? That chip is becoming very burdensome!
PJM001, Sandbach, United Kingdom, 6 minutes ago
Totally wrong to compel people to kneel to a subversive marxist organisation.
Ruined England, Maidstonegianthousingestate, United Kingdom, moments ago
Loves his salary, loves his country that made it possible for him. And then lives abroad because he doesnt want to give something back. And now is playing the victim card. Idiot.
PG, Herts, 9 minutes ago
If, and only if, this article is correct, Lewis Hamilton is exerting a form of bullying. Was this the reason he was allegedly suspended from John Henry Newman Secondary School?
Blaster Bates, Bell End, United Kingdom, moments ago
I say good on Ferrari.
Colin, Colchester, 11 minutes ago
Perhaps they don't think they are accountable for anything and I would suggest that they certainly are not accountable to you.
Edward Thunderpants, Curry Rivel, United Kingdom, 3 hours ago
Hey Lewis its not your own personal political platform go stand for parliament if thats your bag. F1 is a sport to entertain us not bore us to death with politics
As I said, SOMEHOW I don’t think Lewis Hamilton will being going to Ferrari… …just an inkling, BUT I could be wrong…
Why are you parroting these here?
ajprice said:
HustleRussell said:
You can not begin to imagine how little I value views expressed in the Daily Mail comments section.
Why are you parroting these here?
Why are you parroting these here?
The bottom half of the bottom half of the internet.Lots of people are don't like it because being called out is making them feel uncomfortable about their own views.
I'm not supprised about Ferrari. You only have to look at the treatment of black footballers by their own fans and mainstream media. Particularly the newspapers to see they still have a massive problem with racism.
TheDeuce said:
Even if Lewis was a perfect fit for Ferrari.. why would he go there?
A team that can only use their own PU and have pretty much proven that in the hybrid era, they can't make a (legal) competitive one.
On just about every level Ferrari have shown their outdated approach to F1 is no longer effective in championship terms.
In what way is it outdated?A team that can only use their own PU and have pretty much proven that in the hybrid era, they can't make a (legal) competitive one.
On just about every level Ferrari have shown their outdated approach to F1 is no longer effective in championship terms.
Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
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