Official 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Official 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Author
Discussion

Zoobeef

6,004 posts

157 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
oyster said:
Why are you making an assumption that Vettel is the one who should yield next time to avoid an accident and not Charles?

They're team mates FFS. As I said in an earlier post, BOTH of them should be giving each other more space.
Also, CLC gave him 1 and 3/4 car widths to the edge of the track. Just how much space should he give?

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The Surveyor said:
Flooble said:
Deesee said:
Here’s a frame by frame front on.



100% avoidable, what a pair of muppets
That's an excellent composite, thank you. Really shows how far Vettel moved over.
It also shows that it wasn't a lunge into CLC rather it was a steady move over along the length of the straight, and it shows that CLC had more than enough room to move over when Seb started to pull alongside.

Vettel had DRS and was going to get past CLC regardless, yet their combined stupidity resulted in an avoidable accident and left Ferrari with 2 DNF's.
I really can't see what LeClerc was supposed to do?

Vettel had DRS and could have just stuck to his line and passed LeClerc by the time they had reached the corner. But as seen before Vettel likes to move across before being past which results in accidents.

100% Vettels fault as it has been so many other times in the past.
It was basically two teammates who put their egos ahead of finishing the race.

Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.

Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.

Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.

37chevy

3,280 posts

155 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
C70R said:
It was basically two teammates who put their egos ahead of finishing the race.

Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.

Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.

Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
Sorry but I don’t agree.

Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.

All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.

This one is 100% on Seb

heebeegeetee

28,591 posts

247 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
C70R said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The Surveyor said:
Flooble said:
Deesee said:
Here’s a frame by frame front on.



100% avoidable, what a pair of muppets
That's an excellent composite, thank you. Really shows how far Vettel moved over.
It also shows that it wasn't a lunge into CLC rather it was a steady move over along the length of the straight, and it shows that CLC had more than enough room to move over when Seb started to pull alongside.

Vettel had DRS and was going to get past CLC regardless, yet their combined stupidity resulted in an avoidable accident and left Ferrari with 2 DNF's.
I really can't see what LeClerc was supposed to do?

Vettel had DRS and could have just stuck to his line and passed LeClerc by the time they had reached the corner. But as seen before Vettel likes to move across before being past which results in accidents.

100% Vettels fault as it has been so many other times in the past.
It was basically two teammates who put their egos ahead of finishing the race.

Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.

Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.

Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
I don’t agree, not if that picture is accurate. I think people are forgetting the overspeed that vettel had, from clc onboard camera it looked quite considerable, and appears that as Seb passed his rear left took off Charles’s front right.

I was happy to give Seb a lot of doubt, probably because I’m not enjoying seeing the end of a career play out quite like his seems to be doing, but that picture is bad, and far more worse so given they’re team mates.

I don’t know what Ferrari are going to do with Seb now.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
37chevy said:
C70R said:
It was basically two teammates who put their egos ahead of finishing the race.

Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.

Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.

Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
Sorry but I don’t agree.

Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.

All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.

This one is 100% on Seb
Because finishing first, first requires finishing. Charlie learned that the hard way, and it was in his control.

Seeing Seb being a knob and trying to squeeze him should have resulted in him getting the heck out of the way.

He (based on the photo of the wheel above) clearly didn't, and he suffered because of a combination of both of their egos.

A smart driver, who isn't being consumed by the red mist, takes it on the chin, drops back and goes on the all-out attack.

stinkyspanner

701 posts

76 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
C70R said:
Because finishing first, first requires finishing. Charlie learned that the hard way, and it was in his control.

Seeing Seb being a knob and trying to squeeze him should have resulted in him getting the heck out of the way.

He (based on the photo of the wheel above) clearly didn't, and he suffered because of a combination of both of their egos.

A smart driver, who isn't being consumed by the red mist, takes it on the chin, drops back and goes on the all-out attack.
And let Vettel know he can be intimidated in future. No chance

Paul671

335 posts

206 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Why should Charles move left.
To avoid getting hit by Vettel? He is forcing him left and off line for a reason.
Charles can see the proximity, he didn't want to give any more and paid the price.

Too much pride and pressure in the Ferrari team, neither driver can be seen to be beaten by the other.





Flooble

5,565 posts

99 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
it is rather reminiscent of Spain 2016 when Rosberg just kept on moving off the racing line, further and further until Hamilton was pushed onto the grass and hence lost control taking them both out.

Hamilton yielded that one all the way to falling off the track, in the manner some are saying Leclerc should have done, but it still wasn't enough for Rosberg. I imagine even if Leclerc had moved further left Vettel would similarly have kept pushing until they had an accident. The only difference is that in Spain Rosberg was slower than Hamilton (wrong engine mode) so was "forced" into a desperate defence while Vettel was faster than Leclerc (DRS, slipstream) so could have made a clean overtake and then moved across if he really felt the need to do so.


37chevy

3,280 posts

155 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
Paul671 said:
37chevy said:
Why should Charles move left.
To avoid getting hit by Vettel? He is forcing him left and off line for a reason.
Charles can see the proximity, he didn't want to give any more and paid the price.

Too much pride and pressure in the Ferrari team, neither driver can be seen to be beaten by the other.
And let Vettel know that every time charles is on track that he will bend over?

Next time, Vettel will go straight knowing Charles won’t and shouldn’t need to move.

Again, this is 100 percent on Seb, it’s his move to the left that caused the crash

Amazing though after Austria, that people said Charles needs to toughen up....he’s now standing his ground and still being blamed...can’t win can he

angrymoby

2,605 posts

177 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
C70R said:
Because finishing first, first requires finishing. Charlie learned that the hard way, and it was in his control.

Seeing Seb being a knob and trying to squeeze him should have resulted in him getting the heck out of the way.

He (based on the photo of the wheel above) clearly didn't, and he suffered because of a combination of both of their egos.

A smart driver, who isn't being consumed by the red mist, takes it on the chin, drops back and goes on the all-out attack.
think you've forgot who is going to finish higher in the WDC standings ...which is all Charles will care about (now that Ferrari is confirmed 2nd in WCC)

Seb's number 1 status has effectively gone, all he can hope for next season now, is parity ...& with the amount of mistakes he's made im not sure he'll even get that

The devil

2,123 posts

182 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
Bring back the days of the late eighties early nineties, so Lewis touched Alex, so what, this should be flat out racing, on the edge, not namby pamby racing, same for Vettel, Leclerc , race on boys

Mr_Thyroid

1,995 posts

226 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Sorry but I don’t agree.

Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.

All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.

This one is 100% on Seb
Watch Leclerc's on board. You can see him looking in the mirror, and there are definitely moments when he turns his wheel to the right. This do not mean he is moving right but he is absolutely playing "who's got the biggest balls" with Vettel. He was very deliberately giving as little margin as possible.

CoolHands

18,496 posts

194 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
I think lec clearly wanted to be tough and not yield and not move. Just like I drive on the roads round here. It’s a decision. This was not solely Seb’s fault.

37chevy

3,280 posts

155 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
Mr_Thyroid said:
37chevy said:
Sorry but I don’t agree.

Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.

All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.

This one is 100% on Seb
Watch Leclerc's on board. You can see him looking in the mirror, and there are definitely moments when he turns his wheel to the right. This do not mean he is moving right but he is absolutely playing "who's got the biggest balls" with Vettel. He was very deliberately giving as little margin as possible.
Heaven forbid he actually races Vettel. Of course he’s going to give Vettel as little room as possible, but the important bit is HE GAVE ROOM.....

...maybe if Vettel used his mirrors as accurately as Charles, there wouldn’t have been a collision.

37chevy

3,280 posts

155 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
CoolHands said:
I think lec clearly wanted to be tough and not yield and not move. Just like I drive on the roads round here. It’s a decision. This was not solely Seb’s fault.
So you’re on the motorway and someone moves into your lane, taking off your front corner....who’s fault is it? I look forward to your insurance call admitting liability ;-)

Deesee

8,331 posts

82 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
Mr_Thyroid said:
37chevy said:
Sorry but I don’t agree.

Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.

All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.

This one is 100% on Seb
Watch Leclerc's on board. You can see him looking in the mirror, and there are definitely moments when he turns his wheel to the right. This do not mean he is moving right but he is absolutely playing "who's got the biggest balls" with Vettel. He was very deliberately giving as little margin as possible.
Here’s the onboards..

https://streamable.com/l0tn2

(Clear to me)

oyster

12,577 posts

247 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
37chevy said:
C70R said:
It was basically two teammates who put their egos ahead of finishing the race.

Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.

Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.

Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
Sorry but I don’t agree.

Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.

All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.

This one is 100% on Seb
Pretty sure Charles had the red mist too, or else he would have moved to avoid contact.


Zoobeef

6,004 posts

157 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
oyster said:
Pretty sure Charles had the red mist too, or else he would have moved to avoid contact.
I wouldn't, and my job doesnt depend on it.

oyster

12,577 posts

247 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
37chevy said:
CoolHands said:
I think lec clearly wanted to be tough and not yield and not move. Just like I drive on the roads round here. It’s a decision. This was not solely Seb’s fault.
So you’re on the motorway and someone moves into your lane, taking off your front corner....who’s fault is it? I look forward to your insurance call admitting liability ;-)
WTF has road car insurance to do with it?
Charles gave away at least 12 championship points and a good chance of 3rd in the WDC because he wanted to prove a point.

He’s an awesome talent, but he’s got to stop playing victim and learn. I think he’s the fastest driver in F1 right now.

Mr_Thyroid

1,995 posts

226 months

Monday 18th November 2019
quotequote all
37chevy said:
Heaven forbid he actually races Vettel. Of course he’s going to give Vettel as little room as possible, but the important bit is HE GAVE ROOM.....

...maybe if Vettel used his mirrors as accurately as Charles, there wouldn’t have been a collision.
They were on a straight. What was he trying to do? All he was doing was playing who's got the biggest balls, and when you do that, sooner or later one or both are going to have their trousers round their ankles. I'm not trying to absolve Vettel but to say Leclerc is entirely innocent is silly. Like Vettel, he too will be ruing what he could've done differently because deep down he will know that he would've given any other driver more room (except maybe Verstappen).