Official 2019 Brazilian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
oyster said:
Why are you making an assumption that Vettel is the one who should yield next time to avoid an accident and not Charles?
They're team mates FFS. As I said in an earlier post, BOTH of them should be giving each other more space.
Also, CLC gave him 1 and 3/4 car widths to the edge of the track. Just how much space should he give?They're team mates FFS. As I said in an earlier post, BOTH of them should be giving each other more space.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The Surveyor said:
Flooble said:
Deesee said:
That's an excellent composite, thank you. Really shows how far Vettel moved over. Vettel had DRS and was going to get past CLC regardless, yet their combined stupidity resulted in an avoidable accident and left Ferrari with 2 DNF's.
Vettel had DRS and could have just stuck to his line and passed LeClerc by the time they had reached the corner. But as seen before Vettel likes to move across before being past which results in accidents.
100% Vettels fault as it has been so many other times in the past.
Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.
Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.
Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
C70R said:
It was basically two teammates who put their egos ahead of finishing the race.
Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.
Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.
Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
Sorry but I don’t agree.Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.
Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.
Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.
All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.
This one is 100% on Seb
C70R said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The Surveyor said:
Flooble said:
Deesee said:
That's an excellent composite, thank you. Really shows how far Vettel moved over. Vettel had DRS and was going to get past CLC regardless, yet their combined stupidity resulted in an avoidable accident and left Ferrari with 2 DNF's.
Vettel had DRS and could have just stuck to his line and passed LeClerc by the time they had reached the corner. But as seen before Vettel likes to move across before being past which results in accidents.
100% Vettels fault as it has been so many other times in the past.
Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.
Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.
Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
I was happy to give Seb a lot of doubt, probably because I’m not enjoying seeing the end of a career play out quite like his seems to be doing, but that picture is bad, and far more worse so given they’re team mates.
I don’t know what Ferrari are going to do with Seb now.
37chevy said:
C70R said:
It was basically two teammates who put their egos ahead of finishing the race.
Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.
Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.
Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
Sorry but I don’t agree.Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.
Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.
Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.
All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.
This one is 100% on Seb
Seeing Seb being a knob and trying to squeeze him should have resulted in him getting the heck out of the way.
He (based on the photo of the wheel above) clearly didn't, and he suffered because of a combination of both of their egos.
A smart driver, who isn't being consumed by the red mist, takes it on the chin, drops back and goes on the all-out attack.
C70R said:
Because finishing first, first requires finishing. Charlie learned that the hard way, and it was in his control.
Seeing Seb being a knob and trying to squeeze him should have resulted in him getting the heck out of the way.
He (based on the photo of the wheel above) clearly didn't, and he suffered because of a combination of both of their egos.
A smart driver, who isn't being consumed by the red mist, takes it on the chin, drops back and goes on the all-out attack.
And let Vettel know he can be intimidated in future. No chanceSeeing Seb being a knob and trying to squeeze him should have resulted in him getting the heck out of the way.
He (based on the photo of the wheel above) clearly didn't, and he suffered because of a combination of both of their egos.
A smart driver, who isn't being consumed by the red mist, takes it on the chin, drops back and goes on the all-out attack.
37chevy said:
Why should Charles move left.
To avoid getting hit by Vettel? He is forcing him left and off line for a reason. Charles can see the proximity, he didn't want to give any more and paid the price.
Too much pride and pressure in the Ferrari team, neither driver can be seen to be beaten by the other.
it is rather reminiscent of Spain 2016 when Rosberg just kept on moving off the racing line, further and further until Hamilton was pushed onto the grass and hence lost control taking them both out.
Hamilton yielded that one all the way to falling off the track, in the manner some are saying Leclerc should have done, but it still wasn't enough for Rosberg. I imagine even if Leclerc had moved further left Vettel would similarly have kept pushing until they had an accident. The only difference is that in Spain Rosberg was slower than Hamilton (wrong engine mode) so was "forced" into a desperate defence while Vettel was faster than Leclerc (DRS, slipstream) so could have made a clean overtake and then moved across if he really felt the need to do so.
Hamilton yielded that one all the way to falling off the track, in the manner some are saying Leclerc should have done, but it still wasn't enough for Rosberg. I imagine even if Leclerc had moved further left Vettel would similarly have kept pushing until they had an accident. The only difference is that in Spain Rosberg was slower than Hamilton (wrong engine mode) so was "forced" into a desperate defence while Vettel was faster than Leclerc (DRS, slipstream) so could have made a clean overtake and then moved across if he really felt the need to do so.
Paul671 said:
37chevy said:
Why should Charles move left.
To avoid getting hit by Vettel? He is forcing him left and off line for a reason. Charles can see the proximity, he didn't want to give any more and paid the price.
Too much pride and pressure in the Ferrari team, neither driver can be seen to be beaten by the other.
Next time, Vettel will go straight knowing Charles won’t and shouldn’t need to move.
Again, this is 100 percent on Seb, it’s his move to the left that caused the crash
Amazing though after Austria, that people said Charles needs to toughen up....he’s now standing his ground and still being blamed...can’t win can he
C70R said:
Because finishing first, first requires finishing. Charlie learned that the hard way, and it was in his control.
Seeing Seb being a knob and trying to squeeze him should have resulted in him getting the heck out of the way.
He (based on the photo of the wheel above) clearly didn't, and he suffered because of a combination of both of their egos.
A smart driver, who isn't being consumed by the red mist, takes it on the chin, drops back and goes on the all-out attack.
think you've forgot who is going to finish higher in the WDC standings ...which is all Charles will care about (now that Ferrari is confirmed 2nd in WCC)Seeing Seb being a knob and trying to squeeze him should have resulted in him getting the heck out of the way.
He (based on the photo of the wheel above) clearly didn't, and he suffered because of a combination of both of their egos.
A smart driver, who isn't being consumed by the red mist, takes it on the chin, drops back and goes on the all-out attack.
Seb's number 1 status has effectively gone, all he can hope for next season now, is parity ...& with the amount of mistakes he's made im not sure he'll even get that
37chevy said:
Sorry but I don’t agree.
Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.
All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.
This one is 100% on Seb
Watch Leclerc's on board. You can see him looking in the mirror, and there are definitely moments when he turns his wheel to the right. This do not mean he is moving right but he is absolutely playing "who's got the biggest balls" with Vettel. He was very deliberately giving as little margin as possible. Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.
All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.
This one is 100% on Seb
Mr_Thyroid said:
37chevy said:
Sorry but I don’t agree.
Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.
All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.
This one is 100% on Seb
Watch Leclerc's on board. You can see him looking in the mirror, and there are definitely moments when he turns his wheel to the right. This do not mean he is moving right but he is absolutely playing "who's got the biggest balls" with Vettel. He was very deliberately giving as little margin as possible. Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.
All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.
This one is 100% on Seb
...maybe if Vettel used his mirrors as accurately as Charles, there wouldn’t have been a collision.
CoolHands said:
I think lec clearly wanted to be tough and not yield and not move. Just like I drive on the roads round here. It’s a decision. This was not solely Seb’s fault.
So you’re on the motorway and someone moves into your lane, taking off your front corner....who’s fault is it? I look forward to your insurance call admitting liability ;-)Mr_Thyroid said:
37chevy said:
Sorry but I don’t agree.
Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.
All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.
This one is 100% on Seb
Watch Leclerc's on board. You can see him looking in the mirror, and there are definitely moments when he turns his wheel to the right. This do not mean he is moving right but he is absolutely playing "who's got the biggest balls" with Vettel. He was very deliberately giving as little margin as possible. Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.
All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.
This one is 100% on Seb
https://streamable.com/l0tn2
(Clear to me)
37chevy said:
C70R said:
It was basically two teammates who put their egos ahead of finishing the race.
Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.
Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.
Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
Sorry but I don’t agree.Seb shouldn't have turned in, but was exerting 'authority' over the new kid after pulling off a good move.
Charlie should have just given Seb space as he was ahead and gone after him, but he didn't want it to seem like he was being bullied.
Neither wanted to be seen to be losing face, so the collision was inevitable.
Seb moving left was definitely the catalyst, but it was within both of their power to avoid it.
Why should Charles move left. He gave Seb ample room...it’s a race not Monday morning traffic.
All Seb had to do was continue in a straight line and the corner was his, instead he put himself above the team once again, and red mist decended in a wheel to wheel fight, no doubt because he was upset at being overtaken fairly and cleanly into turn 2.
This one is 100% on Seb
37chevy said:
CoolHands said:
I think lec clearly wanted to be tough and not yield and not move. Just like I drive on the roads round here. It’s a decision. This was not solely Seb’s fault.
So you’re on the motorway and someone moves into your lane, taking off your front corner....who’s fault is it? I look forward to your insurance call admitting liability ;-)Charles gave away at least 12 championship points and a good chance of 3rd in the WDC because he wanted to prove a point.
He’s an awesome talent, but he’s got to stop playing victim and learn. I think he’s the fastest driver in F1 right now.
37chevy said:
Heaven forbid he actually races Vettel. Of course he’s going to give Vettel as little room as possible, but the important bit is HE GAVE ROOM.....
...maybe if Vettel used his mirrors as accurately as Charles, there wouldn’t have been a collision.
They were on a straight. What was he trying to do? All he was doing was playing who's got the biggest balls, and when you do that, sooner or later one or both are going to have their trousers round their ankles. I'm not trying to absolve Vettel but to say Leclerc is entirely innocent is silly. Like Vettel, he too will be ruing what he could've done differently because deep down he will know that he would've given any other driver more room (except maybe Verstappen). ...maybe if Vettel used his mirrors as accurately as Charles, there wouldn’t have been a collision.
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