Official 2019 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
Exige77 said:
That actually manages to make Williams look worse!glazbagun said:
Exige77 said:
That actually manages to make Williams look worse!As for the video, I love it!! Such a great way to judge relative performance and it takes 'luck' (safety car re-shuffles etc) largely out of the equation. I imagine that sort of points scoring is pretty close to what the team analysts look at when reporting on which drivers have the most potential, irrespective of their actual recorded points performance.
Good find and thanks for sharing.
Paul_M3 said:
Exige77 said:
It’s still sold by the litre and not by the energy content regardless of temp.
Yes I agree, but the point is that you do get (fractionally) more for your money when buying at lower temps which I believe is what Moose was effectively asking. C2Red said:
Paul_M3 said:
Exige77 said:
It’s still sold by the litre and not by the energy content regardless of temp.
Yes I agree, but the point is that you do get (fractionally) more for your money when buying at lower temps which I believe is what Moose was effectively asking. REALIST123 said:
C2Red said:
Paul_M3 said:
Exige77 said:
It’s still sold by the litre and not by the energy content regardless of temp.
Yes I agree, but the point is that you do get (fractionally) more for your money when buying at lower temps which I believe is what Moose was effectively asking. The cooler the fluid the denser, and therefore has more molecules per area - therefore weights more and you get more per litre.
It's important to remember that litres area a measure of area (volume), not an amount of something.
Hence F1 switching to kg for fuel to stop all the teams d*&king around with the math!
Deesee said:
TheInternet said:
Deesee said:
I’m just watching back the session, flicking between the world fee (sky coms), pitlane (with a chap who is actually ok to listen to) and the onboards.
Is that facility readily on offer somewhere or have you sorted it yourself?Watch carefully two overtakes at exactly the same time..
https://t.co/vPeMafsqN8
RemarkLima said:
Or expressed in the context of the discussion, cold petrol weighs more (has a greater mass to remove gravity from the equation) than warm petrol.
The cooler the fluid the denser, and therefore has more molecules per area - therefore weights more and you get more per litre.
It's important to remember that litres area a measure of area (volume), not an amount of something.
Hence F1 switching to kg for fuel to stop all the teams d*&king around with the math!
This weight/density/volume discussion is getting very boring. If I need a basic science lesson I will go back to school.The cooler the fluid the denser, and therefore has more molecules per area - therefore weights more and you get more per litre.
It's important to remember that litres area a measure of area (volume), not an amount of something.
Hence F1 switching to kg for fuel to stop all the teams d*&king around with the math!
Paul_M3 said:
Exige77 said:
It’s still sold by the litre and not by the energy content regardless of temp.
Yes I agree, but the point is that you do get (fractionally) more for your money when buying at lower temps which I believe is what Moose was effectively asking. Professional race-teams simply don't make such errors, especially professional race-teams who are already under FIA scrutiny for fuel irregularities!
The Surveyor said:
Professional race-teams simply don't make such errors, especially professional race-teams who are already under FIA scrutiny for fuel irregularities!
The weird thing is that we wouldn't expect a team already under scrutiny to opt to put in a cheeky extra 5kg of fuel either. This entire episode makes so little sense it's hard not to conclude that there is something more complex going on in terms of what Ferrari were trying to achieve, and how the FIA have been trying to manage it.To be fair, together, Ferrari and the FIA have managed to wrap the situation up in such a confusing and nonsensical way that it's hard on the outside to come up with any sensible theory of what was going on, why/how or even if Ferrari and the FIA were trying to manage this situation hand in hand, or Vs one another in the end.
Even the motivation to do 'whatever they did' is lost on me - did they pull off a massive and well disguised cheat, yet gain so little advantage that Mercedes still beat them? And arguably red bull, beat them too. It's like knowing someone is stealing something... But being unable to work out what it is they're taking.
Mercedes have been good all season. Sometimes better than others but always there or there abouts.
Red Bull have been slowly improving their package throughout the year. There’s a clear pattern there. Getting better and better.
After the summer break, the red team where unbelievably fast for a period on any track that came along but suddenly as soon as they came under scrutiny they are nowhere re the other two.
Maybe their advantage is in another area (maybe electrics) which is still dodgy and have been told to stop it by the FIA but this fuel nonsense is just a distraction ?
€50K is a price well worth paying for a bit of distraction.
Sure the FIA don’t want them to cheat but at the same time need them to stay in the sport. A big disqualification / punishment could well see them on their way.
The fuel story makes no sense (regardless of it’s temp or density
)
Red Bull have been slowly improving their package throughout the year. There’s a clear pattern there. Getting better and better.
After the summer break, the red team where unbelievably fast for a period on any track that came along but suddenly as soon as they came under scrutiny they are nowhere re the other two.
Maybe their advantage is in another area (maybe electrics) which is still dodgy and have been told to stop it by the FIA but this fuel nonsense is just a distraction ?
€50K is a price well worth paying for a bit of distraction.
Sure the FIA don’t want them to cheat but at the same time need them to stay in the sport. A big disqualification / punishment could well see them on their way.
The fuel story makes no sense (regardless of it’s temp or density
)The Surveyor said:
Professional race-teams simply don't make such errors, especially professional race-teams who are already under FIA scrutiny for fuel irregularities!
It doesn't really matter if they did make an error. To prevent the time and resource consuming waste, that would arise from the FIA checking everything on every car at every stage of a race weekend, for many things, they set technical standards and check a sample at "Random" This only works if it's an absolute offence and punishments for transgressions are draconian. It would be a huge temptation to keep going until caught and pay the 50K. That's less than 20% of a front wing. Edited by Graveworm on Wednesday 4th December 12:10
If you wanted to throw a regulator/checker off track give them something they would find.
Kiv in 21 race weekends (so 168 sessions for the two cars) they have had the fuel checked 10 times... Merc 4..
Personally as I posted above I think the most likely was an underweight car at the end of the Sunday session and they pushed in an extra (4.88) 5kg to get it done, (the car was not weighed by the fia on Saturday). The consequences of running an underweight car are significantly different to a (unimaginable at this level) miss fuel fill.
They were caught out as the fuels were tested on the Saturday after Quali, and did not expect another check pre race. Remember after Quali the cars enter Parc Ferme were parts and ballast can not be changed unless you wished to start from the pit lane.
A calculated gamble gone wrong IMO.
Kiv in 21 race weekends (so 168 sessions for the two cars) they have had the fuel checked 10 times... Merc 4..
Personally as I posted above I think the most likely was an underweight car at the end of the Sunday session and they pushed in an extra (4.88) 5kg to get it done, (the car was not weighed by the fia on Saturday). The consequences of running an underweight car are significantly different to a (unimaginable at this level) miss fuel fill.
They were caught out as the fuels were tested on the Saturday after Quali, and did not expect another check pre race. Remember after Quali the cars enter Parc Ferme were parts and ballast can not be changed unless you wished to start from the pit lane.
A calculated gamble gone wrong IMO.
Went to Abu Dhabi for my first full F1 weekend, did the whole 4 days. Previously only done a Friday at Silverstone and Monza.
Great weather, great facilities, well priced, well organised it was just great.
To top it off, Paddock and Pit access with Racing Point on Friday was a unreal, and a great surprise. Had a tour of garage, spoke with mechanics in depth, all busy working into the night. Met Alonso, Gasly, Prost, Nico, Bernd, and saw other drivers outside having dinner etc. Great experience and some great pictures with the some legends.
Great weather, great facilities, well priced, well organised it was just great.
To top it off, Paddock and Pit access with Racing Point on Friday was a unreal, and a great surprise. Had a tour of garage, spoke with mechanics in depth, all busy working into the night. Met Alonso, Gasly, Prost, Nico, Bernd, and saw other drivers outside having dinner etc. Great experience and some great pictures with the some legends.
Deesee said:
If you wanted to throw a regulator/checker off track give them something they would find.
Kiv in 21 race weekends (so 168 sessions for the two cars) they have had the fuel checked 10 times... Merc 4..
Personally as I posted above I think the most likely was an underweight car at the end of the Sunday session and they pushed in an extra (4.88) 5kg to get it done, (the car was not weighed by the fia on Saturday). The consequences of running an underweight car are significantly different to a (unimaginable at this level) miss fuel fill.
They were caught out as the fuels were tested on the Saturday after Quali, and did not expect another check pre race. Remember after Quali the cars enter Parc Ferme were parts and ballast can not be changed unless you wished to start from the pit lane.
A calculated gamble gone wrong IMO.
Would the Ferrari have been underweight if they had put the declared amount of fuel in? If the car was within the weight limit and was 4.5kg heavier then there was possibly no sleight of hand going on there. Must have been another reason if that was the case.Kiv in 21 race weekends (so 168 sessions for the two cars) they have had the fuel checked 10 times... Merc 4..
Personally as I posted above I think the most likely was an underweight car at the end of the Sunday session and they pushed in an extra (4.88) 5kg to get it done, (the car was not weighed by the fia on Saturday). The consequences of running an underweight car are significantly different to a (unimaginable at this level) miss fuel fill.
They were caught out as the fuels were tested on the Saturday after Quali, and did not expect another check pre race. Remember after Quali the cars enter Parc Ferme were parts and ballast can not be changed unless you wished to start from the pit lane.
A calculated gamble gone wrong IMO.
We can all resolve the question of why Ferrari put in the extra fuel in our own minds. Suffice to say, it wasn't a mistake.. and the FIA were very gentle in their punishment.
One way or another, related to the extra fuel or not, something shady has likely gone on! And now the whole affair has been sealed with a bow, in the form of a pointless 50k fine at the end of the season. Whatever happened, at least we know it didn't lead to any unfair advantage. On merit Ferrari beat Red Bull only due to Red Bull having a weaker 2nd driver for the first half of the season. They are technically second in the WCC, in my view it could be argued that pro-rata they are actually third. So whatever dick dastardly craftiness they have employed, they haven't exactly seen the benefit and would be well advised to stop buggering about with the rules and simply improve their race-craft and reduce their mistakes!
Most of all, next year is an evolutionary year, effectively a sequel to the season we have just had. So whatever they were possibly doing has had the door shut on it, and they have to continue the same fight minus the hi-jinks. In the end, we will get to see how effective they can be without questions of cheating - and that is pretty much all that matters.
We also, interestingly, get to see what Ferrari are like with no number 1 driver. They can't really make Vettel number one again, his number two just beat him.. They can't make LeClerc no1, Vettel's contract will exclude that. Both drivers have ignored team orders this season in any case. Ferrari are finally in a place where cheating would be extremely ill advised and selecting a number one is just asking for trouble. They now need to win, by actually being good at the business of racing. Lets see...
One way or another, related to the extra fuel or not, something shady has likely gone on! And now the whole affair has been sealed with a bow, in the form of a pointless 50k fine at the end of the season. Whatever happened, at least we know it didn't lead to any unfair advantage. On merit Ferrari beat Red Bull only due to Red Bull having a weaker 2nd driver for the first half of the season. They are technically second in the WCC, in my view it could be argued that pro-rata they are actually third. So whatever dick dastardly craftiness they have employed, they haven't exactly seen the benefit and would be well advised to stop buggering about with the rules and simply improve their race-craft and reduce their mistakes!
Most of all, next year is an evolutionary year, effectively a sequel to the season we have just had. So whatever they were possibly doing has had the door shut on it, and they have to continue the same fight minus the hi-jinks. In the end, we will get to see how effective they can be without questions of cheating - and that is pretty much all that matters.
We also, interestingly, get to see what Ferrari are like with no number 1 driver. They can't really make Vettel number one again, his number two just beat him.. They can't make LeClerc no1, Vettel's contract will exclude that. Both drivers have ignored team orders this season in any case. Ferrari are finally in a place where cheating would be extremely ill advised and selecting a number one is just asking for trouble. They now need to win, by actually being good at the business of racing. Lets see...
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