Zandvoort 2020

[sparta6]

Kinda looking forward to visiting this race. Final corner to be at 18 degrees

https://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/28135979/zand...

[Blink982]

Will anyone without an NL postcode manage to get a ticket? I’ve been working in NL for the last 2-3 years on and off and their appetite for F1 is growing all the time. They don’t seem to have any enthusiasm or respect for any other driver though. I’m looking forward to seeing what all the fuss is about but not if it’s just another sea of orange.

[coppice]

I was lucky enough to go to the last Dutch GP - also Lauda's last victory. I still remember walking into the circuit at 8am on Saturday , in common with , gosh , must have been a couple of dozen others . Busy on Sunday though,and a brilliant circuit at which to spectate . Setting was like being at Skegness, but with much better chips ....

[Kev_Mk3]

I personally don't see the info stucture being able to cope with it. I am also pissed off as I was meant to do a track day here 2 weeks ago but was cancelled in September to start upgrades for the F1

[TheDeuce]

Blink982 said:

Will anyone without an NL postcode manage to get a ticket? I’ve been working in NL for the last 2-3 years on and off and their appetite for F1 is growing all the time. They don’t seem to have any enthusiasm or respect for any other driver though. I’m looking forward to seeing what all the fuss is about but not if it’s just another sea of orange.

I've worked with two teams of Dutch chaps this year and every last one was an F1 and MV fan. Sorry to disappoint you but I feel somewhat certain you will never see a bigger sea of orange than next years race at Zandvoort.

The Dutch are lovely people though, a nation of friendly giants that live on beer and laughter - the atmosphere will no doubt be frenetic come race day. Bring it on, I say

The circuit looks OK too. Does anyone know if the banked corner is still definitely happening? Hope so...

[coppice]

Kev_Mk3 said:

I personally don't see the info stucture being able to cope with it. I am also pissed off as I was meant to do a track day here 2 weeks ago but was cancelled in September to start upgrades for the F1

They should cancel the Grand Prix and reinstate your track day immediately . But if your house burns down there'll be 5 million Dutch suspects .

It's brilliant - unlike the 23 locals and a stray dog who turn up to Baku and some other daft races it'll be great to see a partisan crowd like Monza /Silverstone / Interlagos

[37chevy]

coppice said:

It's brilliant - unlike the 23 locals and a stray dog who turn up to Baku and some other daft races it'll be great to see a partisan crowd like Monza /Silverstone / Interlagos

/mexico


completely agree the atmosphere will be great...could get a bit roudy if max doesn't win though, hope it doesn't turn into a football match.....

still feel like it will be a crap race though...the circuit just doesn't lend itself to modern f1.

would rather have a crap race with a great atmosphere than a crap race with none though

[TheDeuce]

37chevy said:

/mexico


completely agree the atmosphere will be great...could get a bit roudy if max doesn't win though, hope it doesn't turn into a football match.....

still feel like it will be a crap race though...the circuit just doesn't lend itself to modern f1.

would rather have a crap race with a great atmosphere than a crap race with none though

The banked final turn (18 degrees) is going to be pretty interesting. So far pirelli are planning to set much higher tyre pressures - somewhat reluctantly from what I'm reading.

For the teams, I think car setup will have to change quite drastically to cope with it safely, which will probably compromise them around the rest of the circuit.

To be honest I was surprised they went with Zandvoort, with the extreme banked turn. It's a very unhelpful element for the engineers to cater for. On the other hand.. I'm glad they have gone for it as I'm sure it'll provide plenty of entertainment as a result. Not least in year one, when it's a bit of an unknown quantity. So I agree, not great for 'racing' but like Monaco, it's fun to see the teams cope with an unsuitable circuit..

[sgtBerbatov]

I think, given the banking and the questionable answer of just inflating tyres to cope with it, I do feel that we're just asking for another Indianapolis. At least they're all on the same tyres this time. But God help the driver who has a blow out going around that bend.

[37chevy]

sgtBerbatov said:

I think, given the banking and the questionable answer of just inflating tyres to cope with it, I do feel that we're just asking for another Indianapolis. At least they're all on the same tyres this time. But God help the driver who has a blow out going around that bend.

Why? They’re not the only cars in the world that race on banked corners or even ones that run ‘rovals’ tyres should be able to cope, just Michelin messed up at Indy

[DaveTheRave87]

The issues at Indianapolis '05 were mainly down to the new track surface in the banked corner and the rules not allowing Michelin to swap the tyres they'd brought that weekend. The banking didn't help matters but wasn't the main cause of the issue.

It's good to have another race in Europe though, should be plenty of orange in the stands although I do wonder how many of them will stay to the end if Max fails to finish.

[Deesee]

The banks at indi are 9deg, that’s half of Zandvoorts proposed turn at 18deg.

It would not surprise me if they have to bake a special set of compounds for this one, once a high speed test is done, likewise as mentioned above it’s a FIA cat 2 track at the moment, there’s a mountain of additional works to get to cat 1.

[TheDeuce]

37chevy said:

sgtBerbatov said:

I think, given the banking and the questionable answer of just inflating tyres to cope with it, I do feel that we're just asking for another Indianapolis. At least they're all on the same tyres this time. But God help the driver who has a blow out going around that bend.

Why? They’re not the only cars in the world that race on banked corners or even ones that run ‘rovals’ tyres should be able to cope, just Michelin messed up at Indy

It's the combination of forces on what are fairly fragile suspension arms. Because of the nature of the circuit, the teams will want to run quite high down-force. In addition when they go around the banked section, that will further introduce it's own force, pushing the already high down-force car even harder in to the track. And on top of all that, Pirelli have decided the tyre has to run higher pressures, which effectively removes the 'suspension' that is normally provided by movement in the tyre wall.

Put all the above alongside the fact that the banking at Zandvoort is twice as steep as Indianapolis.. It's a lot for the cars to deal with, they really aren't designed for that kind of corner and the teams are probably going to have to accept a somewhat awkward compromise between the down-force they would like to run, and the maximum amount they can run safely as it goes through the banked turn.

The fact this corner is twice as banked is a genuine head-scratcher for me. The tyres did fail at Indianapolis because of the added loading caused by the banked section. And as Pirelli have already said publicly, they designed the tyres according to FIA requirements that at the time didn't include a banked circuit. I have no doubt Pirelli know how to make a more suitable tyre, but the problem is they can't change it now. What's even weirder is that as of 2021 they have to produce the new low-profile tyres, which are also not really ideal for the banked turn. That's why it's a little odd the FIA went with Zandvoort, it doesn't really fit in with the direction they have taken the sport. Which is great for us of course, we at least get to enjoy whatever problems this all gives the teams

[TheDeuce]

Deesee said:

The banks at indi are 9deg, that’s half of Zandvoorts proposed turn at 18deg.

It would not surprise me if they have to bake a special set of compounds for this one, once a high speed test is done.

That was my first assumption.. So off I went to google and I saw the press statement from Pirelli saying they aren't allowed to introduce a Zandvoort specific tyre. Of course, it is also possible they have only said that publicly in order to pressure the FIA into allowing a special tyre for the race..

I think they should, and I'm sure Pirelli REALLY don't want to see the tyres fail Indianapolis style. My view: The FIA signed off on this circuit, so should be prepared to accommodate the changes advised by the tyre supplier. Even if that does mean extended testing and development of a special tyre.

[TheDeuce]

DaveTheRave87 said:

The issues at Indianapolis '05 were mainly down to the new track surface in the banked corner and the rules not allowing Michelin to swap the tyres they'd brought that weekend. The banking didn't help matters but wasn't the main cause of the issue.

Yes and no... the banking wasn't the only factor, but it was also an additional factor that added an additional force on top of what the Michelin tyres were designed for. There is a always a factor of safety in tyres, but in F1 it's a pretty slim factor of safety. The safety factor of the tyres was probably sufficient for normal race loads and had some margin for extra influences such as varying track surfaces. But to also add in the banked corner forces... Not good. Didn't most of the failures occur on the banked turn 13? I haven't watched the practice session for years but I recall they did..

[Deesee]

In regards to indi 2005, I’m pretty sure it was something to do with the way the track was (unusually) diamond cut in that section.

We should however kiv these failures in 2005 were within a practically unlimited tyre testing era.

We’ve already had one 2020 tyre test (not so good), and one more next week, so we will see as to what happens.

Edit..

I’m pretty sure the biggest lateral forces seen in f1 are Silverstone as a whole track, and Degner 1 as a turn.

If the banking produces anything like the forces seen here excellent!!!

Edited by Deesee on Tuesday 26th November 14:14

[rdjohn]

TheDeuce said:

The banked final turn (18 degrees) is going to be pretty interesting. So far pirelli are planning to set much higher tyre pressures - somewhat reluctantly from what I'm reading.

For the teams, I think car setup will have to change quite drastically to cope with it safely, which will probably compromise them around the rest of the circuit.

To be honest I was surprised they went with Zandvoort, with the extreme banked turn. It's a very unhelpful element for the engineers to cater for. On the other hand.. I'm glad they have gone for it as I'm sure it'll provide plenty of entertainment as a result. Not least in year one, when it's a bit of an unknown quantity. So I agree, not great for 'racing' but like Monaco, it's fun to see the teams cope with an unsuitable circuit..

Your figures seem right but Motorsport.com are reporting that it will be 32deg

As part of a revamp needed to bring the venue up to Formula 1 standards, the final turn at the track is being reconstructed and will feature a 32% incline – with more than four metres of height difference between the top of the track and the bottom.

This seem like one heck of a lot.

[TheDeuce]

Deesee said:

In regards to indi 2005, I’m pretty sure it was something to do with the way the track was (unusually) diamond cut in that section.

We should however kiv these failures in 2005 were within a practically unlimited tyre testing era.

We’ve already had one 2020 tyre test (not so good), and one more next week, so we will see as to what happens.

It was diamond cut which definitely didn't help and probably was at least as bigger factor as the banking - although the banking had also spoiled R Schumachers day the previous year, before it was cut. It's F1 though, everything is always pushed to the limit including the tyres, any extra stress is normally bad news. The fact it was diamond cut and also banked was two unusual factors at once, and one too many.

Worth baring in mind that these days, the teams can swap tyres mid-race and mitigate the chances of a blow out that way - although for the FP1 they won't know the real limits, so that could be a hard lesson.. I'm sure they'll cope with it and get the job done though. Tbh, I see the biggest issue being the massive stresses imposed upon the suspension, because unlike they tyres, they can't change those components mid-race. That's surely compounded by the desire to run high down-force around a circuit such as this?

I see two likely year one scenarios: 1) It does prove to be too much, all teams struggle and the resultant race is something of a joke - but hopefully quite an entertaining one. 2) It is manageable with the right setup and approach, but some teams will inevitably misjudge that, leading to perhaps a shake-up of the normal order.

I think the second scenario is most likely. Year one some teams are bound to get it wrong as it's a bit of an oddity. But overall they'll all probably get on top of it and make it work year two onward.

[thegreenhell]

rdjohn said:

Your figures seem right but Motorsport.com are reporting that it will be 32deg

As part of a revamp needed to bring the venue up to Formula 1 standards, the final turn at the track is being reconstructed and will feature a 32% incline – with more than four metres of height difference between the top of the track and the bottom.

This seem like one heck of a lot.

32%, not 32 degrees!

18 degrees is 32.5 % gradient.

[TheDeuce]

rdjohn said:

Your figures seem right but Motorsport.com are reporting that it will be 32deg

They might have it back to front - it is 18 degrees, which can alternatively be expressed as 32%.

It can perhaps most accurately be expressed with "F*ck me, that's steep".