The new F1 proposals for 2021

[Tim M DB7V]

Why,oh why are they persisting with the massive front wings for 2021?
Anybody with half a brain has sussed out that fancy front wings are probably the main reason why F1 cars can't stay close through corners!
As they are going for 'ground effect' surely the ridiculous front wings are completely unnecessary and if none of the teams have them then there will be an enormous saving over a season and surely the cars will be able to race.

[anonymous-user]

Tim M DB7V said:

Why,oh why are they persisting with the massive front wings for 2021?
Anybody with half a brain has sussed out that fancy front wings are probably the main reason why F1 cars can't stay close through corners!
As they are going for 'ground effect' surely the ridiculous front wings are completely unnecessary and if none of the teams have them then there will be an enormous saving over a season and surely the cars will be able to race.

The engineers are the reason the cars can’t (sometimes) stay close through corners.

That has been about the same through every imposed change and will be the same in ‘21 and would likely be the same without a front wing.

[TheDeuce]

Tim M DB7V said:

Why,oh why are they persisting with the massive front wings for 2021?
Anybody with half a brain has sussed out that fancy front wings are probably the main reason why F1 cars can't stay close through corners!
As they are going for 'ground effect' surely the ridiculous front wings are completely unnecessary and if none of the teams have them then there will be an enormous saving over a season and surely the cars will be able to race.

Because they want to be relevant and the truth is, the most efficient way to get around a circuit as fast as the old cars used to manage, but with an efficient 1.6l 6 pot engine, is to utilise aero and shift the focus away from insane power and on to more efficient use of power, by getting the cars to corner faster.

However, you should maybe relax a little - the 2021 car outline has been tested in the wind tunnel and has shown to have drastically reduced the dirty air problem. Already the 2019 regs have proven to hugely improve racing, and the 2021 regs are a full fat version of the same philosophy.

It's never really possible to rewind time, but at least the new age of F1 is bringing back ground effect and is reducing draggy aero - that's the right direction isn't it?

[slipstream 1985]

Always wonder why they don't just reduce the maximum width of the whole car from the current 2meters to 1.8 meters. Start making the cars a bit smaller as width has become an issue,

[StevieBee]

The ground effect will be different to that on F1 cars in the 80s. Then, the sides were sealed to the road and such was the effect that it rendered front and sometimes rear wings unnecessary. This came at a price with the cars approaching levels of grip that tore up tyres and made them almost impossible to drive. And it's worth noting that whilst the spectacle of seeing one of these cars full chat round Hawthorns or Stow was to be behold, rarely did it make the racing any more exciting.

The 2021 aero is designed to reduce dependency on wings and enable closer racing, ideally without the aid of DRS. The front wing is designed to work with the airflow coming from the car in front necessitating a larger wing area.

Personally, I think the cars look stunning.

[TheDeuce]

StevieBee said:

The ground effect will be different to that on F1 cars in the 80s. Then, the sides were sealed to the road and such was the effect that it rendered front and sometimes rear wings unnecessary. This came at a price with the cars approaching levels of grip that tore up tyres and made them almost impossible to drive. And it's worth noting that whilst the spectacle of seeing one of these cars full chat round Hawthorns or Stow was to be behold, rarely did it make the racing any more exciting.

The 2021 aero is designed to reduce dependency on wings and enable closer racing, ideally without the aid of DRS. The front wing is designed to work with the airflow coming from the car in front necessitating a larger wing area.

Personally, I think the cars look stunning.

Agree. It's a sensible approach that remains current and also takes just enough of what was learned historically and is known to work.

The cars do look stunning and even once the basic design is ravaged by engineers and sponsors, it'll still look better than what we have ended up with today.

[Kraken]

slipstream 1985 said:

Always wonder why they don't just reduce the maximum width of the whole car from the current 2meters to 1.8 meters. Start making the cars a bit smaller as width has become an issue,

I'm not convinced that width is an issue on most F1 tracks really just that there is only one line worth taking and with the braking distances being so short, dirt off-line, aero wash etc the days of being able to throw an F1 car around off that line are gone.

Having been fortunate enough to have walked or driven around a few modern F1 tracks I'm always struck by how massively wide they are compared to the average national circuit.

[Tim M DB7V]

It looks like, from your comments, that those front wings look good and that's why they are there!!
I still reckon that if they don't extend beyond the inside of the front wheels they won't get knocked off and cover the track in carbon fibre and will allow closer cornering.

[TheDeuce]

Tim M DB7V said:

It looks like, from your comments, that those front wings look good and that's why they are there!!
I still reckon that if they don't extend beyond the inside of the front wheels they won't get knocked off and cover the track in carbon fibre and will allow closer cornering.

Possibly, but they also provide the downforce required for the cars to go as fast as they do. They could put even more emphasis back on ground effect to achieve the same with the smaller wing - but the problem with that is that ground effect can be lost in an instant in some scenarios, which is dangerous. Not to mention, give the engineers to much ground effect potential and someone will exploit it somehow and we'll end up with a stupidly fast car and a predictable season.

The long wing and end-plates are also very valuable in terms of efficiency as it helps to channel air around the wheels rather than have the wheels crashing in to the air - which would itself disrupt the air in the cars wake to an extent.

It's a tricky balance indeed. I can argue about many things F1 but this combination of considerations is so complex that I feel I can't really argue against Brawns philosophy without having access to the wealth of data and detail that he has access too. Let alone his appreciation of the facts. But I can see that the front wing has to stay and remain full width, and at least some of the reasons why.

[skinny]

StevieBee said:

Personally, I think the cars look stunning.

There's no guarantee the cars will look as expected. All they can do is stipulate technical regulations, and you can do whatever you want within that.

The continuous parade of ridiculous F1 noses over the last 10 years is all the proof you need to see that designers dont care about making good looking cars

[TheDeuce]

skinny said:

StevieBee said:

Personally, I think the cars look stunning.

There's no guarantee the cars will look as expected. All they can do is stipulate technical regulations, and you can do whatever you want within that.

The continuous parade of ridiculous F1 noses over the last 10 years is all the proof you need to see that designers dont care about making good looking cars

It does help if they're forced to use big rimmed wheels though. As opposed to the current sofa castors the strap on to each corner..

Also ground effect invites car design that will hug the asphalt, as opposed to appearing to sit above it. The engineers will ruin the intent, but within the regs I think the cars will still look better than the science experiments we have today.

[MissChief]

Tim M DB7V said:

Why,oh why are they persisting with the massive front wings for 2021?
Anybody with half a brain has sussed out that fancy front wings are probably the main reason why F1 cars can't stay close through corners!
As they are going for 'ground effect' surely the ridiculous front wings are completely unnecessary and if none of the teams have them then there will be an enormous saving over a season and surely the cars will be able to race.

Have you actually looked at the 2021 regulations for the front wing? massively reduced number of elements and massively reduced downforce creating capability. Compare the front wing here at 51 seconds to anything on any modern F1 car such as Giorgio Piola's Red Bull drawing here and you'll see they will produce less than half the downforce.

[Tim M DB7V]

That is true but they are still big enough to regularly get knocked off!

[TheDeuce]

I will admit that at the first race this season, I was a bit pissed off when Ricciardo's (one driver I am keen to see do well) front wing instantly fell off as he drove over a patch of grass! It happened in the first hundred feet of the race!!

No problem agreeing I wish they were less protruding and fragile - even though I can very much see why there isn't much choice.

[HustleRussell]

Tim M DB7V said:

Anybody with half a brain has sussed out that fancy front wings are probably the main reason why F1 cars can't stay close through corners!

Suspect the scores of engineers which make up the FIA working group who have been modelling and testing aerodynamic concepts for years have more than half a brain between them and probably know rather more about aerodynamics than Tim M DB7V.

[anonymous-user]

Interesting that Jason Somerville won the Aerodynamicist of the Year at the F1 awards.

I’m guessing that this is the first time an award has been made for rules and a design that won’t even be proven for another year or so, especially when you know that the first design examples sent to the teams didn’t even comply with the rules...........

[thegreenhell]

slipstream 1985 said:

Always wonder why they don't just reduce the maximum width of the whole car from the current 2meters to 1.8 meters. Start making the cars a bit smaller as width has become an issue,

You can't have been wondering for that long. They only increased the car width from 1.8 to 2m in 2017.

[Krikkit]

HustleRussell said:

Tim M DB7V said:

Anybody with half a brain has sussed out that fancy front wings are probably the main reason why F1 cars can't stay close through corners!

Suspect the scores of engineers which make up the FIA working group who have been modelling and testing aerodynamic concepts for years have more than half a brain between them and probably know rather more about aerodynamics than Tim M DB7V.

Don't be ridiculous - they should ask the internet instead of relying on fancy degrees and sums and that rubbish!

[Exige77]

Krikkit said:

HustleRussell said:

Tim M DB7V said:

Anybody with half a brain has sussed out that fancy front wings are probably the main reason why F1 cars can't stay close through corners!

Suspect the scores of engineers which make up the FIA working group who have been modelling and testing aerodynamic concepts for years have more than half a brain between them and probably know rather more about aerodynamics than Tim M DB7V.

Don't be ridiculous - they should ask the internet instead of relying on fancy degrees and sums and that rubbish!

Internet engineers and lawyers make the world go round don’t you know ?

It’s always fun to read some of the stuff on here but it’s quite tame compared to the internet nether regions.

There are however some very bright people on here and I have to say I’ve learnt a lot from PH.

[Teddy Lop]

REALIST123 said:

Interesting that Jason Somerville won the Aerodynamicist of the Year at the F1 awards.

I’m guessing that this is the first time an award has been made for rules and a design that won’t even be proven for another year or so, especially when you know that the first design examples sent to the teams didn’t even comply with the rules...........

its an interesting character trait to congratulate oneselves on the outcome of a task yet to be tested in anger.