Old F1 chassis
Discussion
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
On this thread my answer was either Benneton B194 or Jordan B191 which left me thinking, I on my road trip to Maranello last year I visited the Schumacher private collection in Koln. naturally there was a Jordan B191 and Benneton B194 in that collection along with the B195.
I have seen pictures of other B191, B194,B195 around the world in collections, the question is how many chassis existed? Jordan fielded 2 cars with 5 different drivers, So presume 3 chassis so they had a spare? That should mean there's only 3 cars around the world? Would also presume the 1 in the Schumacher collection is the chassis number he actually drove in 1991. But there seems to be more spread around the world, so either replicas or Benneton B191 repainted as Jordan B191?
That then got me thinking, Mick Schumacher drove the B194 at Spa, was that the B194 I saw at the Schumacher collection? Or was that another chassis? Is there any documented history of F1 chassis numbers available?
Then there's the Ferrari chassis in the Schumacher collection, Ferrari had the "same" cars on display at Maranello, so either he used numerous chassis again or some of them are team mates renumbered?
While doing some work with SEAT Sport, SEAT UK and SEAT ES I managed to provide information to a chap who runs a touring car register that means we could document all the SEAT Sport Leon WTCC/BTCC cars history, is there anything similar for F1 cars?
On this thread my answer was either Benneton B194 or Jordan B191 which left me thinking, I on my road trip to Maranello last year I visited the Schumacher private collection in Koln. naturally there was a Jordan B191 and Benneton B194 in that collection along with the B195.
I have seen pictures of other B191, B194,B195 around the world in collections, the question is how many chassis existed? Jordan fielded 2 cars with 5 different drivers, So presume 3 chassis so they had a spare? That should mean there's only 3 cars around the world? Would also presume the 1 in the Schumacher collection is the chassis number he actually drove in 1991. But there seems to be more spread around the world, so either replicas or Benneton B191 repainted as Jordan B191?
That then got me thinking, Mick Schumacher drove the B194 at Spa, was that the B194 I saw at the Schumacher collection? Or was that another chassis? Is there any documented history of F1 chassis numbers available?
Then there's the Ferrari chassis in the Schumacher collection, Ferrari had the "same" cars on display at Maranello, so either he used numerous chassis again or some of them are team mates renumbered?
While doing some work with SEAT Sport, SEAT UK and SEAT ES I managed to provide information to a chap who runs a touring car register that means we could document all the SEAT Sport Leon WTCC/BTCC cars history, is there anything similar for F1 cars?
Edited by AJB88 on Saturday 4th January 19:11
I think there are two types of car. There will be a show car and an actual racing car. The show car will be used for promotional events for sponsors, whereas the race car - well that bits obvious.
I would think that the ones in the museum will be show cars, while the Benetton that Mick drove will be a former race car. Whether it's a T Car or one Michael drove, who knows.
What I can say is though is that in Birmingham, up until a few years ago, there was a Sports Bar on Broad Street that had an old 80's Benetton F1 car mounted on the wall sideways.
I would think that the ones in the museum will be show cars, while the Benetton that Mick drove will be a former race car. Whether it's a T Car or one Michael drove, who knows.
What I can say is though is that in Birmingham, up until a few years ago, there was a Sports Bar on Broad Street that had an old 80's Benetton F1 car mounted on the wall sideways.
Had a quick look at my photos from the MS Collection. The B194 is raised in the air, 100% no engine in it and also has Bitburger sponsoring down the side so not the one that Mick drove.
Cant really see engines in any of the photos on the Ferrari, Jordan or Benetton cars as took them all from the front.
Watched a video I haven't seen last night of on board footage of Mick in the B194 at Spa, sounds amazing.
Cant really see engines in any of the photos on the Ferrari, Jordan or Benetton cars as took them all from the front.
Watched a video I haven't seen last night of on board footage of Mick in the B194 at Spa, sounds amazing.
Edited by AJB88 on Monday 6th January 21:27
Even a genuine race-used car may well have all the engine/gearbox stuff removed, especially if it's hung on a wall.
Also old race cars are regularly retired into show cars and fitted with later bodywork which just muddies the waters as to what is a genuine one and what's a 'show car'. I think at one point there were 2 more chassis of a particular model on display all claiming to be race-used than McLaren ever made of one of Senna's old cars!
ISTR that there were only ever 3 Brawn GP cars, only two ever raced. The 3rd ended up being repainted in Mercedes colours after the team was sold and only recently was returned to original. Wasn't there something about the car promised to Jenson also being repainted at some point? Sure I read somewhere that he had to 'resue' it after the battle to get it as part of his contract said it was his if he won the title!
Also old race cars are regularly retired into show cars and fitted with later bodywork which just muddies the waters as to what is a genuine one and what's a 'show car'. I think at one point there were 2 more chassis of a particular model on display all claiming to be race-used than McLaren ever made of one of Senna's old cars!
ISTR that there were only ever 3 Brawn GP cars, only two ever raced. The 3rd ended up being repainted in Mercedes colours after the team was sold and only recently was returned to original. Wasn't there something about the car promised to Jenson also being repainted at some point? Sure I read somewhere that he had to 'resue' it after the battle to get it as part of his contract said it was his if he won the title!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eILDgPJZnL...
I have 1989-99 roughly mapped out here.
Number of spaces for each chassis relates to how many made for each team although some aren't accurate (McLaren's from the early Mercedes era are tough to work out without going full detective on the Unit 2 photos for instance so there's just a record for there being two cars if the team ran two cars)
A little bit of insider knowledge plus a s
t load of google searches. Been keeping tabs for a fair few years now.
Most I've seen is McLaren at the height of their Marlboro powers making 11 chassis in a year and Williams building a stload of FW15B/C/D.
Once the testing restrictions came in during the mid-late 00's they stopped making as many chassis and now they usually make 3-4.
Seem to remember Ferrari having double spare cars in the mid-90's at certain races. I miss the days of the arguments over who got the spare car after an accident like Belgium 98.
I have 1989-99 roughly mapped out here.
Number of spaces for each chassis relates to how many made for each team although some aren't accurate (McLaren's from the early Mercedes era are tough to work out without going full detective on the Unit 2 photos for instance so there's just a record for there being two cars if the team ran two cars)
A little bit of insider knowledge plus a s
t load of google searches. Been keeping tabs for a fair few years now.Most I've seen is McLaren at the height of their Marlboro powers making 11 chassis in a year and Williams building a s
tload of FW15B/C/D.Once the testing restrictions came in during the mid-late 00's they stopped making as many chassis and now they usually make 3-4.
Seem to remember Ferrari having double spare cars in the mid-90's at certain races. I miss the days of the arguments over who got the spare car after an accident like Belgium 98.
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Monday 6th January 23:28
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Monday 6th January 23:32
F1GTRUeno said:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eILDgPJZnL...
I have 1989-99 roughly mapped out here.
Number of spaces for each chassis relates to how many made for each team although some aren't accurate (McLaren's from the early Mercedes era are tough to work out without going full detective on the Unit 2 photos for instance so there's just a record for there being two cars if the team ran two cars)
A little bit of insider knowledge plus a st load of google searches. Been keeping tabs for a fair few years now.
Most I've seen is McLaren at the height of their Marlboro powers making 11 chassis in a year and Williams building a stload of FW15B/C/D.
Once the testing restrictions came in during the mid-late 00's they stopped making as many chassis and now they usually make 3-4.
Seem to remember Ferrari having double spare cars in the mid-90's at certain races. I miss the days of the arguments over who got the spare car after an accident like Belgium 98.
Top work will have a read through it tomorrow!I have 1989-99 roughly mapped out here.
Number of spaces for each chassis relates to how many made for each team although some aren't accurate (McLaren's from the early Mercedes era are tough to work out without going full detective on the Unit 2 photos for instance so there's just a record for there being two cars if the team ran two cars)
A little bit of insider knowledge plus a s
t load of google searches. Been keeping tabs for a fair few years now.Most I've seen is McLaren at the height of their Marlboro powers making 11 chassis in a year and Williams building a s
tload of FW15B/C/D.Once the testing restrictions came in during the mid-late 00's they stopped making as many chassis and now they usually make 3-4.
Seem to remember Ferrari having double spare cars in the mid-90's at certain races. I miss the days of the arguments over who got the spare car after an accident like Belgium 98.
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Monday 6th January 23:28
Edited by F1GTRUeno on Monday 6th January 23:32
That F1 car list has some glaring mistakes after only a very quick flick through. Good effort though.
The actual B194 Schumacher Chassis was owned and raced by Dave Shelton/Earl Goddard in Euroboss. Phil Armour drove the sister car I can't recall whether "Kokney Koi" racing had 2 or 3 B194 one may have been a B193.
The actual B194 Schumacher Chassis was owned and raced by Dave Shelton/Earl Goddard in Euroboss. Phil Armour drove the sister car I can't recall whether "Kokney Koi" racing had 2 or 3 B194 one may have been a B193.
Thundersports said:
That F1 car list has some glaring mistakes after only a very quick flick through. Good effort though.
The actual B194 Schumacher Chassis was owned and raced by Dave Shelton/Earl Goddard in Euroboss. Phil Armour drove the sister car I can't recall whether "Kokney Koi" racing had 2 or 3 B194 one may have been a B193.
The Kockney Koi cars have been sold on as far as I know? It's near impossible to find out which chassis numbers they were racing in Euroboss/BOSS GP without speaking to those guys you mentioned.. They made 8 altogether and Schumacher used more than one.The actual B194 Schumacher Chassis was owned and raced by Dave Shelton/Earl Goddard in Euroboss. Phil Armour drove the sister car I can't recall whether "Kokney Koi" racing had 2 or 3 B194 one may have been a B193.
But it's definitely not totally accurate, as said, most of it came from internet searches and just seeing the photos to try and work out which car is where.
Some people have helped with certain cars but I was already told by someone who knows more than me that a lot of information on the sheet is out of date which isn't a surprise.
Any help from anyone would be massively appreciated
janesmith1950 said:
F1GTRUeno said:
Seem to remember Ferrari having double spare cars in the mid-90's at certain races. I miss the days of the arguments over who got the spare car after an accident like Belgium 98.
Short arguments... "Michael, get in"!https://forums.autosport.com/topic/211602-racing-d...
Interesting that a certain tosser has an Arrows and a Tyrrell
Interesting that a certain tosser has an Arrows and a Tyrrell
janesmith1950 said:
F1GTRUeno said:
Seem to remember Ferrari having double spare cars in the mid-90's at certain races. I miss the days of the arguments over who got the spare car after an accident like Belgium 98.
Short arguments... "Michael, get in"!The argument was over whether or not the spare car could be kept for Michael in case he needed it later.
https://forums.autosport.com/topic/96726-missing-t...
Very old thread but I ended up searching through it because Memento Exclusives/Heritage F1 have both an 021 and an 022 for sale at the minute.
Wonder what happened to all the Tyrrells?
Similarly, although I know Villeneuve has one in his museum/collection, I cannot seem to find a single BAR from the early days anywhere on the web.
Very old thread but I ended up searching through it because Memento Exclusives/Heritage F1 have both an 021 and an 022 for sale at the minute.
Wonder what happened to all the Tyrrells?
Similarly, although I know Villeneuve has one in his museum/collection, I cannot seem to find a single BAR from the early days anywhere on the web.
Also, always worth following Dickie Stanford on twitter because he's usually playing with something fun.
https://twitter.com/dickiestanford
https://twitter.com/dickiestanford
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