F1 Sucks These Days

F1 Sucks These Days

Author
Discussion

TurnedEmo

688 posts

47 months

Tuesday 14th April 2020
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Doesn't really matter too much what the gaps are between cars if you can predict the finishing order before the race has started.

You really couldn't predict that in the days of the 1980s turbos, as you did get tyres exploding, engines blowing up and if you made a mistake and went off track, you generally got beached in the gravel, you couldn't just drive over rumble strips and back on again. So it was a lot less predictable.

sparta6

3,689 posts

99 months

Tuesday 14th April 2020
quotequote all
TurnedEmo said:
Doesn't really matter too much what the gaps are between cars if you can predict the finishing order before the race has started.

Completely agree.
Today's cars virtually run on rails.
Paul Ricard shines a light on this.

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Tuesday 14th April 2020
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TurnedEmo said:
Doesn't really matter too much what the gaps are between cars if you can predict the finishing order before the race has started.

You really couldn't predict that in the days of the 1980s turbos, as you did get tyres exploding, engines blowing up and if you made a mistake and went off track, you generally got beached in the gravel, you couldn't just drive over rumble strips and back on again. So it was a lot less predictable.
That is true, though I wouldn't say an unpredictable race where there was no on track action, just a whole bunch of cars retiring, is any more interesting than a procession. If anything, retirements for me usually detract from the quality of the race because it's one less car for others to race against, or one less driver to cheer for.


coppice

8,564 posts

143 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
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If you measure the quality of any era of F1 by watching the TV coverage , you will certainly come to a conclusion, and it is one you are entitled to take . But it is wrong to snipe at different views, including those who , like me , watched a lot of F1 from trackside.I certainly don't don rosy tinted specs to inform my view on motorsport of different eras ,as a lot of the stuff I saw from the early 70s onwards was poor - such as F3 . After the 1 litre era ended , I don't think it recovered until the late 90s .

I saw my first GP in 1971 but have 3 favourite eras and the first was peak turbo in 85/86/87 . Yup , the races were often marked by retirements , overtaking wasn;'t common but the spectacle of watching 1000bhp plus F1 cars at Brands was only matched by Rosberg's insane 161mph lap at Silverstone and Mansell's move in 87 , which I saw from Stowe grandstand . It was immersive and visceral - you were far closer to trackside back then and even the smell was unforgettable .

Next peak was 89- 92 - and huge 30plus entry of cars with V8 , V10 and V12 engines - beautifully diverse , amazing sounds and just gorgeous things to look at

My final favourite was last year of V10s - watching, and listening to cars through Bridge and the like was unforgettable

F1 for me has never been about lots of overtaking - there is so much more to it , but , like all motor sport , TV gives far from a complete picture

Edited by coppice on Wednesday 15th April 08:02


Edited by coppice on Wednesday 15th April 10:26

Eric Mc

121,782 posts

264 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
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Nice summation. I think "visceral" has to be part of the experience. And the expletive "bloody hell" should be heard frequently, trackside.

kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
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I agree that TV removes so much from the live spectacle, including the speed and the noise.

I remember watching the BAR team test - would have been for their first or second season - at Kyalami. There was one other team there, I think it may have been Williams. So, obviously, no overtaking, just a car at a time going around a track in circles.

On TV I'd have switched channels in under a lap. Trackside, with access to pretty much half of the pitlane, I got an understanding of just how Formula 1 cars move. The image that stuck with me was standing just at the end of the pit exit, just a wire fence separating me from the pitlane exit road and beyond it the Kink. A BAR came charging down the start / finish straight. While there it was hidden from view behind the pit wall, but I could see its reflection in the windows on the grandstand opposite, and of course I could hear it screaming through the gears, flat out. The pit wall ended almost directly opposite me and I was watching there for the car to appear. When it shot out from that cover, it was moving so fast my eyes couldn't initially keep up with it, until it turned in to The Kink and rocketed down the hill.

I've watched a lot of motor racing live at Kyalami. Nothing moved anything like a Formula 1 car.

coppice

8,564 posts

143 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
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Lovely image . Thanks for sharing .

My first ever encounter with an F 1 car was Lodge corner , Oulton Park.in April 1971 . I'd heard the car scream along the straight, then be heel and toed down through the gears - perfectly. Then , BANG , there it was, a dark blue Tyrrell with Stewart's unmistakable tartan banded helmet angled over in the cocpkit . Bit too much power,, DFV revs flare , back flips out , caught instantaneously, , flat out towards us and gone . I could have wept with joy - it is an image which has never left me .

And it explains why, when I was (name drop alert) lucky enough to interview Sir JYS , 45 years later it was more than special.

Fundoreen

4,180 posts

82 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
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99% cant remember exactly how some old race played out from the 60s-90s. A vast library for them to relive.
They are all over youtube and I try but its just boring.
Its easier to follow because they only show the first few cars most of the race. And they go slower so your eyes can spot car control easier.
Personally speaking iI see more spectacle in the build up and first few laps of a modern f1 race than in all these old one combined.
Nice for those that have rose tinted goggles though.

Eric Mc

121,782 posts

264 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
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My first personal experience of an F1 car was Derek Daly demonstrating his Ensign at the Phoenix Park meeting in Dublin in 1978. The top cars raced in the Park in those days were Formula Atlantics but the F1 car just blew them away in terms of braking, accelerating, gear changing and sheer speed and noise. And the Ensign was by no means the best F1 car in 1978.


coppice

8,564 posts

143 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
quotequote all
Fundoreen said:
99% cant remember exactly how some old race played out from the 60s-90s. A vast library for them to relive.
They are all over youtube and I try but its just boring.
Its easier to follow because they only show the first few cars most of the race. And they go slower so your eyes can spot car control easier.
Personally speaking iI see more spectacle in the build up and first few laps of a modern f1 race than in all these old one combined.
Nice for those that have rose tinted goggles though.
No sunshine, it was nice for those of us who there . Don't dismiss stuff by quality of TV coverage - TV is a 2D image with crap sound and no choice who you watch. Don;t confuse it with real life .

TheDeuce

21,274 posts

65 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
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coppice said:
No sunshine, it was nice for those of us who there . Don't dismiss stuff by quality of TV coverage - TV is a 2D image with crap sound and no choice who you watch. Don;t confuse it with real life .
That's true. On the other hand, in real life you can't get into the cockpit with your choice of driver for the entire race, or teleport around the track in an instant on a whim.

sparta6

3,689 posts

99 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
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TheDeuce said:
coppice said:
No sunshine, it was nice for those of us who there . Don't dismiss stuff by quality of TV coverage - TV is a 2D image with crap sound and no choice who you watch. Don;t confuse it with real life .
That's true. On the other hand, in real life you can't get into the cockpit with your choice of driver for the entire race, or teleport around the track in an instant on a whim.
Live concert in person.
OR
Live concert on TV.



TheDeuce

21,274 posts

65 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
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sparta6 said:
Live concert in person.
OR
Live concert on TV.
That's different, in that example there is no benefit from watching remotely.

With F1 it more complex. The best way to watch a race - as in; see as much of it as possible and watch from the angles you want, including on demand replays etc, is to watch via sky in the comfort of your own home with no distractions.

The best way to experience F1 however, is to go there and feel the experience.

Personally, I'd rather be there and soak up the atmosphere!! But I think it's fair to say that there are benefits from watching remotely - more than ever now the broadcast is digital with multiple viewpoints on demand. It's certainly not the baffling experience it used to be sometimes back in the analogue days.

Unless you're senior in F1 management, I guess they can switch between the broadcast gallery feeds and/or wander down to the pit lane whenever they wish during a race smile

Eric Mc

121,782 posts

264 months

Wednesday 15th April 2020
quotequote all
coppice said:
Fundoreen said:
99% cant remember exactly how some old race played out from the 60s-90s. A vast library for them to relive.
They are all over youtube and I try but its just boring.
Its easier to follow because they only show the first few cars most of the race. And they go slower so your eyes can spot car control easier.
Personally speaking iI see more spectacle in the build up and first few laps of a modern f1 race than in all these old one combined.
Nice for those that have rose tinted goggles though.
No sunshine, it was nice for those of us who there . Don't dismiss stuff by quality of TV coverage - TV is a 2D image with crap sound and no choice who you watch. Don;t confuse it with real life .
And a lot of the material Fundoreen would have been looking at was probably not TV coverage at all, but footage shot for newsreels or promotional films. For instance, Shell had a very active film division which made some very good documentaries in the 1950s. Nick Mason's dad (he of Pink Floyd fame) was a producer for the Shell film unit.

I love digging out old actual TV footage - i.e. broadcast material (not film). I've come across the 1965 Monaco and Dutch GPs. Fascinating stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKb9FixAFjw

And this film footage of the 1962 Monaco GP is simply stunning -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCv-dIFGcd0&t=...



coppice

8,564 posts

143 months

Thursday 16th April 2020
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Thinking about this thread - a nice change from the obvious - I guess the other point I'd make is that unless we had in period experience , we always look from a 2020 perspective . Hence it's so tempting to look at Lewis ' Mercedes ,, and then dismiss a Lotus 72 or a Maserati 250F as gutless.and gripless . In 50 years of watching the sport nearly every time I have seen F1 , I have been watching the fastest race cars in history . You couldn't fast forward and compare to something that hadn't happened yet.

The gulf between a fast road car and an F1 car , whilst still immense , is actually narrower now than it was 45 years ago. Back then a slicks and wings F1 car with 1000 bhp /tonne was on a different planet to even quick sports cars like 911s (with barely 200bhp ) and even the mighty Ferrari Daytona was running on thinner tyres than your mum's Fiesta. If you had a king of the hill RS2000 you barely scraped over 100bhp .. But now a good PCP deal means the guy next door can buy a 350bhp rocket hatch , and his richer mate a 600bhp AMG Thug GTS ...


The inconvenient truth is that the same applies to safety . TV companies have made a living out of highlighting how lethal the sport was but .since Lewis Stanley and Jackie Stewart started doing something about safety in the late Sixties, each year , in period , has seen F1 at its safest ever .

Eric Mc

121,782 posts

264 months

Thursday 16th April 2020
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I'm glad you mentioned Stanley (although his Christian name was Louis not Lewis). He rarely gets mentioned when talking about the safety improvements that started coming in from the late 1960s. Perhaps it's because he wasn't such a nice chap in many other areas of his life and rubbed many people up the wrong way. Indeed, I sometimes wonder if his personality actually hindered the safety campaign rather than helped.

For those who might not know who Louis Stanley was, he became sole owner of BRM in 1970 or so and started fighting for some measures to make reaching safer - such as improvements to barriers and the introduction of a mobile medical centre. He was also the guy who introduced Marlboro to motorsport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Stanley

NZDave

91 posts

249 months

Thursday 16th April 2020
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The 1986 Aussie GP was my first Formula 1 race. It was a pretty expensive exercise from New Zealand.
I really enjoyed it and suspect to an alert spectator there was a lot more going on than what the commentators noticed. To watch Prost running at near enough qualifying speeds to try and make up for his tyre stop was incredible. Of course the tyre technicians checked Prost's tyres after his stop and decided they would have been good enough to complete the race if he hadn't had a puncture. They didn't allow for how much harder on tyres Mansell and Rosberg were.
I have been to Melbourne the last three years and was there this year as well and have enjoyed the races. Of course it is more the the GP as they have some good support races and I have taken in the Phillip Island Classic meeting each time. It helps to have a friend to stay with in Melbourne.
Dave

coppice

8,564 posts

143 months

Thursday 16th April 2020
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
I'm glad you mentioned Stanley (although his Christian name was Louis not Lewis). He rarely gets mentioned when talking about the safety improvements that started coming in from the late 1960s. Perhaps it's because he wasn't such a nice chap in many other areas of his life and rubbed many people up the wrong way. Indeed, I sometimes wonder if his personality actually hindered the safety campaign rather than helped.

For those who might not know who Louis Stanley was, he became sole owner of BRM in 1970 or so and started fighting for some measures to make reaching safer - such as improvements to barriers and the introduction of a mobile medical centre. He was also the guy who introduced Marlboro to motorsport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Stanley
Eric - quite right about my Stanley error - how could I? Am I turning into such a Hamilton ...err... fanboi ..that it has wrecked my spelling ?

I loved those stories about how Louis Stanley would invite prospective BRM drivers to tea at The Dorchester , then fix it so he was called away for an urgent phone call with BRM HQ at Bourne . On his return he's invariably say ' Ah , Lauda , that was the engine shop. They've got the upgraded V12 on the dyno now and they have already found another 30bhp ' ,.

So how do we bring the colourful Raymond Mays to the F1 nostalgia party ?

Eric Mc

121,782 posts

264 months

Thursday 16th April 2020
quotequote all
Is "Colourful" a euphimism?

I had a chat with a motor sport journo once who told me that there is a lot about Mays that won't be told until all of the protagonists are no longer around. So - expect a book sometime soon smile

coppice

8,564 posts

143 months

Thursday 16th April 2020
quotequote all
Euphemism I think ? Touche.

I think we'd find Mays' story unremarkable these days - he was just unfortunate enough to be a gay bloke in a macho sport at a time when homosexual acts were criminal . In period , I knew there was something slightly unusual about Mays from some oblique comments made in the racing press but I never really grasped what it was.

It all seems so absurd now - and does that take us on to poor Mike Beuttler ?