The Official F1 2021 silly season *contains speculation*
Discussion
Durzel said:
“Speak”, surely? 
"Speak" is used when the conversation is formal, giving a speech etc. I was commenting how I sound when I "talk" (informally).https://grammar.yourdictionary.com/vs/practical-ti...
https://www.grammar.com/talk_vs._speak
Anyway......
I feel sorry for Albon. Next year he could be without a seat simply because he accepted promotion with a tougher car.
I hope they just relegate him to AT. Tsunoda has hardly set F2 alight.
faa77 said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
You can try and remember things any way you want, the proof is there in the history books.
Albon in 12 races for Red Bull 2020 has scored 64 points
Gasley in his first 12 races for Red Bull 2019 scored 61 points
So Albon is better than Gasly? Only problem is in 2020 Albon is in comfortably the second best car on the grid, by a country mile.
In 2019 Gasly was in the third best car on the grid behind a fine performing Ferrari duo who were scoring podiums and victories. In 2020, all things considered a Red Bull should finish 3rd and 4th in every race, 2019 they should have been 5th and 6th.
Compare the same results with team mates in Toro Rosso/Alpha Touri
2019 first 12 races
Albon 16 points
Kvyat 27 points
2020
Gasly 63 points
Kvyat 14 points
I'm trying to compare things on a purely factual base, all of the above is there for everyone to see. Gasly in Red Bull was on average 0.529 seconds a lap slower than Verstappen, not exactly great. It is however less than Albon who's a few hundredths slower still.
By all means have your favourites, I see why people like Albon as he comes across as a nice enough lad and speaks like he went to public school.
But to say he's quicker than Gasly? The stats don't back it up (unless it's his mum cooking the books again).
You're comparing Albon and Gasly via points, time behind Max etc but you're neglecting this year's car isn't same as the one Gasly drove.Albon in 12 races for Red Bull 2020 has scored 64 points
Gasley in his first 12 races for Red Bull 2019 scored 61 points
So Albon is better than Gasly? Only problem is in 2020 Albon is in comfortably the second best car on the grid, by a country mile.
In 2019 Gasly was in the third best car on the grid behind a fine performing Ferrari duo who were scoring podiums and victories. In 2020, all things considered a Red Bull should finish 3rd and 4th in every race, 2019 they should have been 5th and 6th.
Compare the same results with team mates in Toro Rosso/Alpha Touri
2019 first 12 races
Albon 16 points
Kvyat 27 points
2020
Gasly 63 points
Kvyat 14 points
I'm trying to compare things on a purely factual base, all of the above is there for everyone to see. Gasly in Red Bull was on average 0.529 seconds a lap slower than Verstappen, not exactly great. It is however less than Albon who's a few hundredths slower still.
By all means have your favourites, I see why people like Albon as he comes across as a nice enough lad and speaks like he went to public school.
But to say he's quicker than Gasly? The stats don't back it up (unless it's his mum cooking the books again).
And you're forgetting Gasly p*ssed them all off.
Gasly finished above Albon in the points last year, is only one point behind him in a vastly inferior car this year, was on average closer to Verstappen per lap during their time together at Red Bull and has demolished Kvyat at TR/AT whilst Albon whilst Albon was beaten by him on points.
Now if you want to argue those facts don't fit with what you believe, fair enough. It would be nice to hear some rational behind your thoughts.
On your other point that Gasly pissed off everyone at Red Bull and that's the reason he's out then at least it makes more sense than the numbers. Because the numbers don't add up.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
TheDeuce said:
It's ok, I have no favourite, I think they're both somewhat short of deserving a top drive tbh, and now both have proven as much...
I hadn't looked at the stats to be honest, I just recall being amazed at how slow Gasly was. I also recall when Albon took over in the second half of last year and immediately performed better. At the time, the mood on these forums was that Albon was an improvement!
I suppose the interesting thing is we're able to compare two 'no2' drivers in the same car from 2019. What are the relative stats Gasly v Albon in that car, that season?
Do your own bloody research! I hadn't looked at the stats to be honest, I just recall being amazed at how slow Gasly was. I also recall when Albon took over in the second half of last year and immediately performed better. At the time, the mood on these forums was that Albon was an improvement!
I suppose the interesting thing is we're able to compare two 'no2' drivers in the same car from 2019. What are the relative stats Gasly v Albon in that car, that season?
As a car develops through the season I thought it unfair to compare in that respect, plus it's not an even spread of races. Gasley had one retirement and two none point scores in his time, Albon had only one. Both had highest place 4th, Albon had more 5th and 6th place finishes but by the time he was scoring these, Ferrari had lost their mysterious high speed engines.
Gasly finished the year above Albon in the championship.
Someone suggested that it was down to a car improvement then as well, but if that's the case, it was an immediate step change applied at the same race that Albon took over, and Max was unable to take any advantage of that car improvement because his season didn't get any better at that point.
Edited by kiseca on Thursday 29th October 08:24
kiseca said:
I can't remember them off the top of my head but I did post 2019 stats earlier when some short memories had forgotten about Albon when he was impressive. He not only was a huge improvement on Gasly in the same car, but he was outscoring Max in the same car until the latter's win in the second last race.
Someone suggested that it was down to a car improvement then as well, but if that's the case, it was an immediate step change applied at the same race that Gasly took over, and Max was unable to take any advantage of that car improvement because his season didn't get any better at that point.
In the races from Spa '19 when he joined the team;Someone suggested that it was down to a car improvement then as well, but if that's the case, it was an immediate step change applied at the same race that Gasly took over, and Max was unable to take any advantage of that car improvement because his season didn't get any better at that point.
Albon (finishing position)
5 6 6 5 4 5 5 14 6
Verstappen (finishing position, X = retired)
X 8 3 4 X 6 3 1 2
Verstappen also scored a Pole Position in Brasil, Albon started 6th
LaurasOtherHalf said:
For the naming rights?
yupwouldn't surprise me if the deal didnt continue into 2022
they must have had targets which would have seen them competing closer to the front which they aren't (albeit not their fault with the Ferrari PU, they're closer to Ferrari and ahead of HAAS)
Not sure running almost last every race helps the Alfa Romeo brand.
andburg said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
For the naming rights?
yupwouldn't surprise me if the deal didnt continue into 2022
they must have had targets which would have seen them competing closer to the front which they aren't (albeit not their fault with the Ferrari PU, they're closer to Ferrari and ahead of HAAS)
Not sure running almost last every race helps the Alfa Romeo brand.
Alfa retain Kimi and Giovanazzi for 2021 https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/153165/alfa-rome...
Two seats gone in the musical chairs.
Two seats gone in the musical chairs.
Killer2005 said:
Alfa/Sauber have confirmed Kimi and Giovanazzi both for next season.
Slightly surprised as I thought Mick Schumacher might get Giovanazzis seat so suggests the fight for a place at Haas will hot up a bit.
Got to be Haas now - unless he's simply not getting an F1 drive just yet... Seems unlikely though.Slightly surprised as I thought Mick Schumacher might get Giovanazzis seat so suggests the fight for a place at Haas will hot up a bit.
He actually did very well overall in F2 this season. Not sure how much of that he can translate in to F1 but he's certainly deserving of a shot on merit, in addition to the obvious heritage..
LaurasOtherHalf said:
TheDeuce said:
It's ok, I have no favourite, I think they're both somewhat short of deserving a top drive tbh, and now both have proven as much...
I hadn't looked at the stats to be honest, I just recall being amazed at how slow Gasly was. I also recall when Albon took over in the second half of last year and immediately performed better. At the time, the mood on these forums was that Albon was an improvement!
I suppose the interesting thing is we're able to compare two 'no2' drivers in the same car from 2019. What are the relative stats Gasly v Albon in that car, that season?
Do your own bloody research! I hadn't looked at the stats to be honest, I just recall being amazed at how slow Gasly was. I also recall when Albon took over in the second half of last year and immediately performed better. At the time, the mood on these forums was that Albon was an improvement!
I suppose the interesting thing is we're able to compare two 'no2' drivers in the same car from 2019. What are the relative stats Gasly v Albon in that car, that season?
As a car develops through the season I thought it unfair to compare in that respect, plus it's not an even spread of races. Gasley had one retirement and two none point scores in his time, Albon had only one. Both had highest place 4th, Albon had more 5th and 6th place finishes but by the time he was scoring these, Ferrari had lost their mysterious high speed engines.
Gasly finished the year above Albon in the championship.
Albon was looking pretty much nailed on for that podium spot until he was spun out by Hamilton, then finishing 14th as a result.
Whilst I know this is racing and these things happen, had Gasly not been on the lucky end of the above incident he would not have passed two cars (Ham & Alb) and would not have finished the 3pts above Albon that he did at the end of the season.
djgritt said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
TheDeuce said:
It's ok, I have no favourite, I think they're both somewhat short of deserving a top drive tbh, and now both have proven as much...
I hadn't looked at the stats to be honest, I just recall being amazed at how slow Gasly was. I also recall when Albon took over in the second half of last year and immediately performed better. At the time, the mood on these forums was that Albon was an improvement!
I suppose the interesting thing is we're able to compare two 'no2' drivers in the same car from 2019. What are the relative stats Gasly v Albon in that car, that season?
Do your own bloody research! I hadn't looked at the stats to be honest, I just recall being amazed at how slow Gasly was. I also recall when Albon took over in the second half of last year and immediately performed better. At the time, the mood on these forums was that Albon was an improvement!
I suppose the interesting thing is we're able to compare two 'no2' drivers in the same car from 2019. What are the relative stats Gasly v Albon in that car, that season?
As a car develops through the season I thought it unfair to compare in that respect, plus it's not an even spread of races. Gasley had one retirement and two none point scores in his time, Albon had only one. Both had highest place 4th, Albon had more 5th and 6th place finishes but by the time he was scoring these, Ferrari had lost their mysterious high speed engines.
Gasly finished the year above Albon in the championship.
Albon was looking pretty much nailed on for that podium spot until he was spun out by Hamilton, then finishing 14th as a result.
Whilst I know this is racing and these things happen, had Gasly not been on the lucky end of the above incident he would not have passed two cars (Ham & Alb) and would not have finished the 3pts above Albon that he did at the end of the season.
Since Albon's impressive debut charge at Spa last year, he hasn't managed to take his game on in a way that everyone, particularly Red Bull, probably expected.
There have been some nearly moments for him to get his first F1 podium.
The same Brazilian Grand Prix that provided Gasly's podium breakthrough last year should have been Albon's breakthrough instead, but a late collision with Hamilton ruled him out.
Then another collision with Hamilton cost him a certain podium and a possible win in Austria at the season opener this year.
Both collisions were blamed rightly on Hamilton, so there is definitely an argument to say that Albon has been unlucky not to have been on the podium as a minimum.
But it was only luck that put him in those positions to challenge in the first place.
In Brazil, it was contact between two Ferraris and a mechanical retirement for Valtteri Bottas' Mercedes that ruled out three of the six front-runners, and caused safety cars, which tightened the pack and elevated Albon to second position in the closing stages.
In Austria, another late safety car brought Albon into play to challenge an otherwise dominant Mercedes team in the late stages on fresher tyres.
That, combined with Ferrari's abysmal form in 2020 and Verstappen retiring early on, made Albon the only challenger to Mercedes by the time the safety car pulled in with a handful of laps to go.
- credit bbc
Pretty much what I said on the previous page.
I’d also argue that Albon puts his car in positions where accidents can and do happen.
Starting in or below the midfield in a car that’s massively faster than those around you should be easy but Albon makes it hard. He still can’t find any pace before the first stop in the car and then has to make up for it in the second phase.
Putting himself under pressure which leads to mishaps?
I’d also argue that Albon puts his car in positions where accidents can and do happen.
Starting in or below the midfield in a car that’s massively faster than those around you should be easy but Albon makes it hard. He still can’t find any pace before the first stop in the car and then has to make up for it in the second phase.
Putting himself under pressure which leads to mishaps?
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Pretty much what I said on the previous page.
I’d also argue that Albon puts his car in positions where accidents can and do happen.
Starting in or below the midfield in a car that’s massively faster than those around you should be easy but Albon makes it hard. He still can’t find any pace before the first stop in the car and then has to make up for it in the second phase.
Putting himself under pressure which leads to mishaps?
Tend to agree regards pressure. The closer he gets to 'decision time' the more likely he is take risks..I’d also argue that Albon puts his car in positions where accidents can and do happen.
Starting in or below the midfield in a car that’s massively faster than those around you should be easy but Albon makes it hard. He still can’t find any pace before the first stop in the car and then has to make up for it in the second phase.
Putting himself under pressure which leads to mishaps?
Also on reflection of everything said in this thread Albon v Gasly, I have changed my view somewhat. My initial recollection was that the only year they both drove 'the same' RB car, Albon initially impressed to a greater extent than Gasly. However, as pointed out, the car itself was better developed by that stage, and we can also assume that Gasly was under pressure from the very start - since he was booted so early on, similar to Albon being under pressure now.
Gasly has done very well this season. I'm not sure if that's because he has progressed or is simply at the limit of his performance and/or ability to handle pressure at AT but is exceeded by one or the other in the top team. Some drivers are right at the top of midfield in terms of ability but simply can't translate that at the sharp end of the sport. Or of course, maybe he specifically can't at Red Bull... which as a team does appear to offer a 'unique' working environment.
andburg said:
Raikonnen and Giovanzzi confirmed at Alfa for another year.
Guess that means we could see Schumacher AND Illot at HAAS.
I think we'll see HAAS as the last to confirm their lineup as they probably want Perez's money and he will keep his options open until ruled out by Red Bull.
On "Inside Line" (on Sky) they suggested that HAAS line up could be Schumacher and Mazepin with Mazepin Senior buying the team for 2022 but I cannot find anything on their YouTube channel (Unbeaten F1)Guess that means we could see Schumacher AND Illot at HAAS.
I think we'll see HAAS as the last to confirm their lineup as they probably want Perez's money and he will keep his options open until ruled out by Red Bull.
ETA - Found it - At : 6:56 Here ( The bit about his dad buying the team was last week )
Edited by NM62 on Friday 30th October 11:45
Edited by NM62 on Friday 30th October 11:47
andburg said:
Raikonnen and Giovanzzi confirmed at Alfa for another year.
Guess that means we could see Schumacher AND Illot at HAAS.
I think we'll see HAAS as the last to confirm their lineup as they probably want Perez's money and he will keep his options open until ruled out by Red Bull.
Shumi and Illot continuing their current battles in F1 would be great. It would even provide a real reason to watch the Haas cars each GP too, even if they are still running around at the back Guess that means we could see Schumacher AND Illot at HAAS.
I think we'll see HAAS as the last to confirm their lineup as they probably want Perez's money and he will keep his options open until ruled out by Red Bull.
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