Black Mercedes.

Black Mercedes.

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TheDeuce

Original Poster:

21,267 posts

65 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
ash73 said:
TheDeuce said:
All people should be treated as equal overall.
That's a utopian dream. We all judge people on their appearance in the first 30 seconds we meet them. Taller, more attractive people get more senior roles, more lenient sentences, etc... irrespective of race.
You cut that one quote out of my post that also addressed the issue of natural human generisation and assumption. Why?

And equal 'overall' obviously transcends an initial 30 second personal opinion of someone. That's down to who meets who... But overall, across all such meetings, for every meeting where a person isn't well received there will likely be someone else out there who could have met them and would have received them very well. Hence 'overall'.

You can break any statistical trend if you sample the outcome only once.

Benrad

650 posts

148 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
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ukaskew said:
We've done a lot of unconscious bias research at my workplace and it's remarkable how much that creeps in and just how prevalent it is. If you imagine that all the way through the chain, from school careers advisers to recruitment agencies to interview panels etc, it could be - for example - that people of colour or indeed women are steered away from engineering, motorsport etc in subtle ways without anyone even realising they are doing it. I've no doubt Mercedes will do a deep dive on all of that to get to the bottom of it.

Quite timely but a study was released today showing football commentators are significantly more likely to praise light skinned players for their intelligence, creativity etc, where as dark skinned players are praised for their pace and power.

That sort of thing can be found everywhere. It's not about employing people of colour to make up quotas, it's about finding out why they may be underrepresented in the first place and trying to fix why that might be.
Very well put

I think Mercedes are quite clear in their statement that they're promoting equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome.

coppice

8,561 posts

143 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
I fully support it , but as I pointed out in a letter to Motor Sport , Hamilton's conscience , along with everybody else in the paddock goes AWOL the second he arrives in Abu Dhabi, Baku and the rest . Did we hear a peep when Matthew Hedges was banged up for life in 2018 , after a 5minute 'trial' . A word about the fate of the Uigurs banged up in prison camps when the circus races in China ? Err..no

Teddy Lop

8,290 posts

66 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
To be clear, I'm not oblivious to the timing of Mercedes new initiative. But it is important to note that they have distanced themselves by not supporting BLM directly - aspects of which clearly don't fit with Mercedes image or intentions.

Mercedes have made a move that satisfies their need to respond 'somehow' as it seems everyone is expected to respond somehow. They have also no doubt delighted their star driver, ensured endless positive headlines for themselves and as a kicker their car now looks better than ever. And they might even get to the bottom of the question as to why there are not more black people in F1.

They've played their hand very well on this.
timing is everything. I find this very cynical, as do how causally you offhand how everyone is " expected to conform". Look beyond the cynically co-opted "decent causes" of the current movement, there are those that wish to destroy the society whose values and mechanisms has made and continues to make us the most progressive and equal ever. That a "hero" like Churchill can have a racial outlook so jarring to us is an example of a progression we should be celebrating, rather than seeing something that needs "deleting" from history. That deletes our own achievement.

This will probably all blow over, but if you study tyrannies they succeeded not because of devotees, but by bullying enough people into outwardly conforming while inside they prayed for someone strong enough to save them, then when said people stuck their head up they clamoured to the the first to betray them and serve the master. And its worth noting too, the very educated classes that typically cheered in the tyrannies the loudest were the first to burn.

I don't care if you're black, white, gay, trans, or identify as a teapot. I'd like to make jokes that today would be un-PC, not because of claptrap like favouring hate speech, but because nobody, including myself, is put on a pedestal, which is the only way to true equality, not dividing people up into good and bad based on either immutable characteristics or self expression. I'm not getting on that train.

But back on topic, I follow f1 to escape all this nonsense.



kiseca

9,339 posts

218 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
ash73 said:
TheDeuce said:
All people should be treated as equal overall.
That's a utopian dream. We all judge people on their appearance in the first 30 seconds we meet them. Taller, more attractive people get more senior roles, more lenient sentences, etc... irrespective of race.
... which is the problem everyone's trying to fix or improve, and it can be done. Yes, we judge people on first sight, but that doesn't make our conclusions right, reliable, or even harmless, and it doesn't mean we can't recognise that fact and work to improve what is a human behavioural weakness. There are plenty of human traits which we routinely suppress under pressure of laws, society, moral expectations. And it's changed human behaviour and expectations through the years.

Sure, right now the focus is on just one area of discrimination, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it or just dismiss it and say "it is what it is so it must always be.".

i.e. It's only a utopian dream if enough people don't bother trying to get closer to it.



kambites

67,460 posts

220 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
yes Bias based on physical appearance is never going to be completely erradicated, but if we never try to improve just because we know it's impossible to achieve perfection we'll never achieve anything.

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

21,267 posts

65 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
This black Merc is certainly driving some intense (and I have to say generally thoughtful and intelligent) debate on this thread. That's to be applauded smile

rscott

14,689 posts

190 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
This black Merc is certainly driving some intense (and I have to say generally thoughtful and intelligent) debate on this thread. That's to be applauded smile
Sadly it also attracted the "what about Hitler" posters too.

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

21,267 posts

65 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
rscott said:
TheDeuce said:
This black Merc is certainly driving some intense (and I have to say generally thoughtful and intelligent) debate on this thread. That's to be applauded smile
Sadly it also attracted the "what about Hitler" posters too.
You'll always get that sort of thing. Especially with Sparta sniffing around for a fresh opportunity to bash Hamilton wink

A lot of people are showing a great deal of healthy thought behind their postings though.

Whatsmyname

944 posts

76 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
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jsf said:
vulture1 said:
Hopefully one day an average joe black kid can rise to the top of motorsport without prejudice based purely on his or her tallant speed and natural ability and maybe even a black president one day will run the USA.
Both of those examples have one white parent.
James Stewart Jnr?

Kraken

1,710 posts

199 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
TravelsVeryRapid said:
What seems to be escaping some people is that the BML movement is just a front for another agenda. If you read their website it’s about defunding the police, abolishing capitalism and democracy.
Which website is that then? There's certainly nothing on their official website like that that I could see. Sounds like you've been looking at one of the socialist worker sites.

LucyP

1,698 posts

58 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
Kraken: I suggest you look at these parts of their website then:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/

And when you have, no doubt you will wonder what a multi-billion £ car operation, run by predominantly white males that spends £100s of millions on a F1 team, run similarly by white males, that pays their lead driver £10s of millions per year, (who is based in Monaco with it's usual tax benefits), and is sponsored by a state oil company and a swiss bank has in common with those aims!

TheDeuce

Original Poster:

21,267 posts

65 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
LucyP said:
Kraken: I suggest you look at these parts of their website then:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/

And when you have, no doubt you will wonder what a multi-billion £ car operation, run by predominantly white males that spends £100s of millions on a F1 team, run similarly by white males, that pays their lead driver £10s of millions per year, (who is based in Monaco with it's usual tax benefits), and is sponsored by a state oil company and a swiss bank has in common with those aims!
Which car company are you suggesting is aligned with those particular aims? You didn't say...

velocgee

508 posts

145 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
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North West Tom said:
It's cleary just a PR exercise to appease Hamilton. They even say in their statement, 3% of their workforce are non-white. You really think they give a damn? Next they'll purposely hire a black man for a random role they've created so they can say that it's 'progress'.
Agree.

Disappointed Hamilton has got involved in the pantomime.

BrettMRC

4,037 posts

159 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
Some really odd comments on here.

If a move by anyone or any organisation to improve diversity and reduce inequality bothers you at any level then I think you need to go and do some studying and personal reflection.

It is right and proper that organisations and people with the biggest platforms should lead the way.

Also, the car looks great.

sparta6

3,689 posts

99 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
kiseca said:
PanicBuyingBogRoll said:
kiseca said:
sparta6 said:
kiseca said:
sparta6 said:
TheDeuce said:
REALIST123 said:
sparta6 said:
SmoothCriminal said:
SO woke, SO stunning, SO brave.

Wonder what the racial mix of Daimler AG is or even the merc racing team for that matter. Bet them muppets will be taking the knee before races aswell
I wonder if Lewis has studied the history of Daimler and the Nazi party ?
eek
Surely, if he was aware of that he would never have driven for them, best car or not?

But then, he’s still associated with Hugo Boss so some parts of history maybe aren’t as important as others.
That would imply that you assume he has no belief that people can change - or more accurately that people long dead might have been replaced with others that have rather different views!

When he signed for Mercedes I'm he wasn't worried that place would be full of Nazi sympathisers in the same way that he wouldn't expect them to give him a car from that era either wink
Or, perhaps, he has a selective memory when advancing his career wink
Dude. Your garage says you have a Merc, a Porsche, and a Ferrari. Once again you completely undermine your own position and show that you're either irrationally biased against Lewis, which in itself is being discriminatory (you keep attacking him, but not for any valid reason, it's just because you don't like him) or you're a very persistant troll.
How on earth does a person's choice of street car purchases relate to viewpoints on F1 driver conduct such as Max, Hamilton, Leclerc or Vettel ?

I've also commented on Ricciardo but don't have a Renault in my stable.
Because you've repeatedly used his association with Merc to attempt to devalue his views by referencing his support of a company with some skeletons in its closet. Yet you support the same company by buying its products, as well as two others who also contributed to the axis war effort. You don't really care what company he works for, you just look for ways to criticize Lewis.
Buying those cars clearly demonstrate someone who supports Nazi and fascist ideology.
If someone truly believes that Lewis cannot both work for Mercedes and sincerely hold and express views that support equality, then actually yes, if they put their money where their mouth is, they wouldn't purchase products from that company unless Merc's past didn't clash with their own personal views.
The difference is money flow direction.

As an employee we have a paymaster and it can sometimes cloud our judgement.

As a consumer we have freedom of choice and are unencumbered.

And consumers can buy a German product today precisely because of the freedom given to us by those Allied troops who sacrificied so much and to whom we are indebted.

sparta6

3,689 posts

99 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
amgmcqueen said:
Sorry but i hate to see this pathetic, virtue signalling nonsense.

Sport and politics should never mix.
It's increasingly hard to maintain that as 'sport is a platform' from which to fix the world.. That's the new sentiment, if you can do something, you should.

Which is a shame, as we're all bombarded with this stuff in the media constantly - and generally I agree with the issues people are seeking to solve... But watching F1 used to be a pure F1 only escape from everything else. I don't think it's unreasonable that sport should exist in it's own little universe, or that we should all have avenues of escape from the furore of modern life.
I agree.
Sport was created to transcend politics and religion.
F1 was a self-contained world of escapism.

rscott

14,689 posts

190 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
LucyP said:
Kraken: I suggest you look at these parts of their website then:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/

And when you have, no doubt you will wonder what a multi-billion £ car operation, run by predominantly white males that spends £100s of millions on a F1 team, run similarly by white males, that pays their lead driver £10s of millions per year, (who is based in Monaco with it's usual tax benefits), and is sponsored by a state oil company and a swiss bank has in common with those aims!
Mercedes have not said they're endorsing or supporting BLM, only that they've pledged to work to improve the diversity of their team.and the car being black is a "clear statement that we stand against racism and all forms of discrimination." . Seems an eminently sensible approach - support the movement's aim to tackle racism and discrimination without endorsing or even mentioning some of the other aims of BLM .

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/06/silv...

Sky took a similar stand - clear statement that they're working to improve BAME representation at all levels and will use their platform to highlight racial injustice, but not endorsing or supporting the specific aims of BLM. https://www.skygroup.sky/en-gb/article/sky-commits...

sparta6

3,689 posts

99 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
rscott said:
LucyP said:
Kraken: I suggest you look at these parts of their website then:

https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-matters-2020/

And when you have, no doubt you will wonder what a multi-billion £ car operation, run by predominantly white males that spends £100s of millions on a F1 team, run similarly by white males, that pays their lead driver £10s of millions per year, (who is based in Monaco with it's usual tax benefits), and is sponsored by a state oil company and a swiss bank has in common with those aims!
Mercedes have not said they're endorsing or supporting BLM, only that they've pledged to work to improve the diversity of their team.and the car being black is a "clear statement that we stand against racism and all forms of discrimination." . Seems an eminently sensible approach - support the movement's aim to tackle racism and discrimination without endorsing or even mentioning some of the other aims of BLM .

https://www.mercedesamgf1.com/en/news/2020/06/silv...

Sky took a similar stand - clear statement that they're working to improve BAME representation at all levels and will use their platform to highlight racial injustice, but not endorsing or supporting the specific aims of BLM. https://www.skygroup.sky/en-gb/article/sky-commits...
Do we believe that Mercedes would be doing this if Hamilton was driving for Ferrari ?

Exige77

6,518 posts

190 months

Tuesday 30th June 2020
quotequote all
Imagine if another driver had said this ?

Is it double standards again ?