Black Mercedes.
Discussion
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
faa77 said:
vdn said:
But don’t you see... you seem to care enough to get your knickers in a twist; over and over. And over... again.
My knickers in a twist? Not at all. Actually I find it funny people like yourself genuinely don't understand why certain groups are under-represented in particular fields............
Your conclusion: There MUST be discrimination in the recruitment process!!!!!
Edited by faa77 on Saturday 4th July 00:56
Nothing to see here, vdn often snipes around like a long range bully
If you two had your knickers in such a twist; today must have sent you through the roof! ...although I’m sure you’ll claim otherwise
Presumably much of what you say is therefore not out of date
It must really make your skin crawl to see F1 bending over backwards to start a new chapter regard diversity and all the other ‘woke’ stuff going on. Things are changing in a way you don’t like ey. Shame
Why do you think there are no Chinese F1 drivers ?
Despite the fact China has all the resources available and it's own F1 event
You've failed because the answer does not exist on your Corbyn spreadsheet, which the UK has already thrown into the trash
You're 15 years behind the ball.
The One Europe myth is dead.
Globalisation as we know it has been cut off at the knees by China's latest deadly export.
Businesses across all sectors are withdrawing from China as we speak.
We cancelled two deals just last week.
We adapt or die.
And it will be fine because we're all open minded, innovative and resourceful, right ?
Edited by sparta6 on Sunday 5th July 09:22
this coming from the guy who dislikes the fact that there's a long term diversity drive in F1. The irony here is unseen, and unrivalled You still have not answered a simple question.
Your limitations are presenting themselves
Your limitations presented themselves a long long long time ago
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
faa77 said:
vdn said:
But don’t you see... you seem to care enough to get your knickers in a twist; over and over. And over... again.
My knickers in a twist? Not at all. Actually I find it funny people like yourself genuinely don't understand why certain groups are under-represented in particular fields............
Your conclusion: There MUST be discrimination in the recruitment process!!!!!
Edited by faa77 on Saturday 4th July 00:56
Nothing to see here, vdn often snipes around like a long range bully
If you two had your knickers in such a twist; today must have sent you through the roof! ...although I’m sure you’ll claim otherwise
Presumably much of what you say is therefore not out of date
It must really make your skin crawl to see F1 bending over backwards to start a new chapter regard diversity and all the other ‘woke’ stuff going on. Things are changing in a way you don’t like ey. Shame
Why do you think there are no Chinese F1 drivers ?
Despite the fact China has all the resources available and it's own F1 event
You've failed because the answer does not exist on your Corbyn spreadsheet, which the UK has already thrown into the trash
You're 15 years behind the ball.
The One Europe myth is dead.
Globalisation as we know it has been cut off at the knees by China's latest deadly export.
Businesses across all sectors are withdrawing from China as we speak.
We cancelled two deals just last week.
We adapt or die.
And it will be fine because we're all open minded, innovative and resourceful, right ?
Edited by sparta6 on Sunday 5th July 09:22
this coming from the guy who dislikes the fact that there's a long term diversity drive in F1. The irony here is unseen, and unrivalled You still have not answered a simple question.
Your limitations are presenting themselves
Your limitations presented themselves a long long long time ago
We both know why you cannot answer the Chinese question, but don't worry I won't tell anyone
You are wearing a very old belief system which also failed Corbyn.
Once you leave Uni and start building new businesses and creating new jobs in the real world you might, just might, begin to see how outdated your automatic assumptions really are
So many things possible to move things on and we're down to throwing stupid insults at people and token efforts with a bit of paint.
Guess we'll have to wait a few more years for actual practical actions. Maybe some scholarships, maybe some sponsorships, maybe some things in schools. You know, all the stuff that other people already do to get women into STEM or that worked to kickstart some people's careers.
But that takes actual work and spending money.
Guess we'll have to wait a few more years for actual practical actions. Maybe some scholarships, maybe some sponsorships, maybe some things in schools. You know, all the stuff that other people already do to get women into STEM or that worked to kickstart some people's careers.
But that takes actual work and spending money.
thiscocks said:
otolith said:
thiscocks said:
otolith said:
thiscocks said:
..but are responsible for 50% of the murders... Facts are racist
And your theory for why that is would be?Who said it was a theory, it's been a fact for years. Not hard to find the stats. This is for 2017: https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in...
I repeat my question - your theory for why that is would be?
sparta6 said:
We both know why you cannot answer the Chinese question, but don't worry I won't tell anyone
You are wearing a very old belief system which also failed Corbyn.
Once you leave Uni and start building new businesses and creating new jobs in the real world you might, just might, begin to see how outdated your automatic assumptions really are
If only you knew
vdn said:
You really, truly, are a part of the problem and you're a lost cause. Seems odd that all of F1 are on board with it, but people like you are not. Does it ever make you wonder? You could just stick to the easy path and assume that EVERYONE else is wrong and there's nothing to see here. It's called a bubble and you wouldn't want it popped, I can tell.
You didn't answer my question. You said:vdn said:
Diversity drives are looking to make sure people know that particular career paths are even open to them
and I asked:faa77 said:
Why wouldn't a career path be open to them?
So, why wouldn't a career path be open to them?sparta6 said:
We both know why you cannot answer the Chinese question, but don't worry I won't tell anyone
You are wearing a very old belief system which also failed Corbyn.
Once you leave Uni and start building new businesses and creating new jobs in the real world you might, just might, begin to see how outdated your automatic assumptions really are
faa77 said:
sparta6 said:
We both know why you cannot answer the Chinese question, but don't worry I won't tell anyone
You are wearing a very old belief system which also failed Corbyn.
Once you leave Uni and start building new businesses and creating new jobs in the real world you might, just might, begin to see how outdated your automatic assumptions really are
So you and Sparta; the naive village idiots, as it were; cannot understand that, whilst practically speaking; career paths can be open for all; the reality is that people from certain sectors of society may not see it as a bonafide option; both / or either, consciously or subconsciously. And there is a chicken and egg loop that occurs; wherein kids, young adults, adults; not seeing themselves represented in any given field; feel it's not for them. It takes mavericks like Lewis and his father to break the mould; and suffer the racism / ignorance along the way, knowing that that's just going to be a part of the equation; to hopefully lay foundations that might see results in a generation or two.
Now, in your bubble's; I know that it's a simple equation... can someone go into a career of their choosing? Yes. End of discussion. All the diversity stuff is nonsense, and virtue signalling, woke, b
ks.But in the real world where nuance, unconscious bias, conscious bias and all that it brings, affect real world decisions and choices; there are fields that remain relatively insular and can seek to let the next generation know that they are welcome. The chicken and egg cycle can be broken and diversity follows.
Now; does this mean that ANY of us like the idea of people getting into positions, because of their skin colour alone? No. I reckon we'd all be on the same page re' that. In a perfect world; that would never happen / would never have happened.
But the drive for diversity is bigger than that and about a far bigger picture.
Now, as grown ups; I'd assume you'd get all of this but I'm reminded that many people exist in bubbles and have no real reason to step outside them. It's not unique and is quite common. Some might even say it's the generic non-learned stand point.
faa77 said:
So, why wouldn't a career path be open to them?
I think the question being asked is given that, in theory, a career path is open. why are there not more people from a BAME background taking it - that seems to me to be the question the Mercedes initiative is trying to answer. As are parts of the engineering profession as a whole. Mercedes F1 are about average for female representation at 12%, but the profession is trying to change that. At 3% BAME, they're behind the profession, and they want to known why.Why are people trying to denigrate their efforts?
Europa1 said:
faa77 said:
So, why wouldn't a career path be open to them?
I think the question being asked is given that, in theory, a career path is open. why are there not more people from a BAME background taking it - that's seems to me to be the question the Mercedes initiative is trying to answer. As are parts of the engineering profession as a whole. Mercedes F1 are about average for female representation at 12%, but the profession is trying to change that. At 3% BAME, they're behind the profession, and they want to known why.Why are people trying to denigrate their efforts?
vdn said:
faa77 said:
Hiring people based on their gender/skin colour/disability etc, instead of their ability.
And if anyone thinks for one moment that won't happen, they're naive.
When you've just made a huge song and dance about equality but 6 months later your employee composition hasn't changed senior management WILL put pressure on hiring managers to meet diversity targets.
And if anyone thinks for one moment that won't happen, they're naive.
When you've just made a huge song and dance about equality but 6 months later your employee composition hasn't changed senior management WILL put pressure on hiring managers to meet diversity targets.
Poor baby. All angry and wupset at the new world unfolding before you.
Diversity drives are looking to make sure people know that particular career paths are even open to them... on a level more nuanced than I’ll assume you’d understand. Does anyone like any particular person getting any job based on anything other than their talent? No.
But it’s bigger than that and certainly large enough for feeble minds to trip up on.
Personally I don't like the Merc black. I liked black on the JPS cars years ago but not on the Mercs. Personal preference that's all.
As an aside I think faa77 is correct above. We have seen it before when trying to level the playing field for women to enter traditionally male jobs. For example both army and fire service "changed" certain entry tests to ensure women were more successful than they would otherwise be. Now whether those tests were set incorrectly and unreasonably in the first place I don't know. Personally I'd like to see a lot more women in senior positions as in general I find them better than men (I'm a man, if that is sexist then so be it, it's my experience). When I ran my own company (which in fact was at least 50% ethic minority) I desperately wanted to recruit some blacks because they were under represented and I wanted to give them a break (accepting that the cards are stacked against them in some ways), I found myself subconsciously lowering the bar of what I'd accept in their case. In retrospect I don't know if I should have done that or not, but it is in effect exactly what faa77 is saying I believe? Some contracts I bid for even had ethnicity questionnaires that you had to complete to get the jobs which again encouraged you to take on certain types to comply. On balance I would accept a slightly lower quality to get a more representative mix as I think it's the right thing to do.
(Let the PH condescending name calling commence!)
vdn said:
faa77 said:
sparta6 said:
We both know why you cannot answer the Chinese question, but don't worry I won't tell anyone
You are wearing a very old belief system which also failed Corbyn.
Once you leave Uni and start building new businesses and creating new jobs in the real world you might, just might, begin to see how outdated your automatic assumptions really are
So you and Sparta; the naive village idiots, as it were; cannot understand that, whilst practically speaking; career paths can be open for all; the reality is that people from certain sectors of society may not see it as a bonafide option; both / or either, consciously or subconsciously. And there is a chicken and egg loop that occurs; wherein kids, young adults, adults; not seeing themselves represented in any given field; feel it's not for them. It takes mavericks like Lewis and his father to break the mould; and suffer the racism / ignorance along the way, knowing that that's just going to be a part of the equation; to hopefully lay foundations that might see results in a generation or two.
Now, in your bubble's; I know that it's a simple equation... can someone go into a career of their choosing? Yes. End of discussion. All the diversity stuff is nonsense, and virtue signalling, woke, b
ks.But in the real world where nuance, unconscious bias, conscious bias and all that it brings, affect real world decisions and choices; there are fields that remain relatively insular and can seek to let the next generation know that they are welcome. The chicken and egg cycle can be broken and diversity follows.
Now; does this mean that ANY of us like the idea of people getting into positions, because of their skin colour alone? No. I reckon we'd all be on the same page re' that. In a perfect world; that would never happen / would never have happened.
But the drive for diversity is bigger than that and about a far bigger picture.
Now, as grown ups; I'd assume you'd get all of this but I'm reminded that many people exist in bubbles and have no real reason to step outside them. It's not unique and is quite common. Some might even say it's the generic non-learned stand point.
Why do you use so many inappropriate semi colons? I count 16 in the above post, all of which are incorrectly used.
MikeStroud said:
I just opened this thread at this post. Wow so typical of PH, someone doesn't like something someone has said so immediately condescending words thrown etc. Whatever happened to reasoned multi-facted debate?
Personally I don't like the Merc black. I liked black on the JPS cars years ago but not on the Mercs. Personal preference that's all.
As an aside I think faa77 is correct above. We have seen it before when trying to level the playing field for women to enter traditionally male jobs. For example both army and fire service "changed" certain entry tests to ensure women were more successful than they would otherwise be. Now whether those tests were set incorrectly and unreasonably in the first place I don't know. Personally I'd like to see a lot more women in senior positions as in general I find them better than men (I'm a man, if that is sexist then so be it, it's my experience). When I ran my own company (which in fact was at least 50% ethic minority) I desperately wanted to recruit some blacks because they were under represented and I wanted to give them a break (accepting that the cards are stacked against them in some ways), I found myself subconsciously lowering the bar of what I'd accept in their case. In retrospect I don't know if I should have done that or not, but it is in effect exactly what faa77 is saying I believe? Some contracts I bid for even had ethnicity questionnaires that you had to complete to get the jobs which again encouraged you to take on certain types to comply. On balance I would accept a slightly lower quality to get a more representative mix as I think it's the right thing to do.
(Let the PH condescending name calling commence!)
You’ve not disagreed with anything I’ve said from what I can see.Personally I don't like the Merc black. I liked black on the JPS cars years ago but not on the Mercs. Personal preference that's all.
As an aside I think faa77 is correct above. We have seen it before when trying to level the playing field for women to enter traditionally male jobs. For example both army and fire service "changed" certain entry tests to ensure women were more successful than they would otherwise be. Now whether those tests were set incorrectly and unreasonably in the first place I don't know. Personally I'd like to see a lot more women in senior positions as in general I find them better than men (I'm a man, if that is sexist then so be it, it's my experience). When I ran my own company (which in fact was at least 50% ethic minority) I desperately wanted to recruit some blacks because they were under represented and I wanted to give them a break (accepting that the cards are stacked against them in some ways), I found myself subconsciously lowering the bar of what I'd accept in their case. In retrospect I don't know if I should have done that or not, but it is in effect exactly what faa77 is saying I believe? Some contracts I bid for even had ethnicity questionnaires that you had to complete to get the jobs which again encouraged you to take on certain types to comply. On balance I would accept a slightly lower quality to get a more representative mix as I think it's the right thing to do.
(Let the PH condescending name calling commence!)
You seem, like many, to be confusing lowering the bar - to a diversity drive to inspire and make clear that people who might otherwise not feel a particular field is for them, can be.
I already said that nobody in their right mind would like that someone got a job just because of their race or sex or other. In actual fact; I don’t think you should have done what you did... it’s the wrong way to create diversity and not what any bonafide org / or Lewis in this case / F1, etc is pushing for. Can’t you see the difference as it is as clear as can be, no?
vdn said:
You’ve not disagreed with anything I’ve said from what I can see.
You seem, like many, to be confusing lowering the bar - to a diversity drive to inspire and make clear that people who might otherwise not feel a particular field is for them, can be.
I already said that nobody in their right mind would like that someone got a job just because of their race or sex or other. In actual fact; I don’t think you should have done what you did... it’s the wrong way to create diversity and not what any bonafide org / or Lewis in this case / F1, etc is pushing for. Can’t you see the difference as it is as clear as can be, no?
This is where Mercedes are going to find it tricky.You seem, like many, to be confusing lowering the bar - to a diversity drive to inspire and make clear that people who might otherwise not feel a particular field is for them, can be.
I already said that nobody in their right mind would like that someone got a job just because of their race or sex or other. In actual fact; I don’t think you should have done what you did... it’s the wrong way to create diversity and not what any bonafide org / or Lewis in this case / F1, etc is pushing for. Can’t you see the difference as it is as clear as can be, no?
If they are looking for ethnic minorities as drivers/mechanics/developers or whatever and the field they have to choose from is predominantly white what can they do?
As has been stated above it needs to be tackled at the grass roots or to continue the metaphor even before the crop is sown.
Schools, colleges, universities must encourage diversity.
From memory there was a big push not too many years ago to get women to consider careers which were predominantly male.
This has had some success although it still has a long way to go.
Surely the same principles can be applied to ethnic minorities. You don’t need to lower the bar or introduce positive discrimination. Just get enough interested in that particular branch of employment and the good will rise to the surface as should be.
If you advertise a job and you get 50 applicants. 25 white and 25 black it’s a lot easier to create a diverse company than if it’s 48 white and 2 black.
The incoming cost caps are going to inevitably lead to a reduction in head count at most of the teams and nowhere more so than Mercedes. In a performance driven pursuit like F1 there's not going to be scope to carry any fat at all. Every single person in the team is going to have to be the absolute best at what they do. I doubt they will want to be carrying apprentices or inexperienced staff, everyone will need to have demonstrable experience and an impeccable track record.
There isn't a ready pool of applicants available for them to recruit. You don't win F1 titles by hiring the most diverse team, you hire the most talented and experienced.
If Mercedes are serious about improving diversity, they're going to have to start with education programmes at secondary school level to try and drive more minorities into engineering degrees. They are then going to have to follow this up with investment into other forms of motor sport where these graduates can cut their teeth before they can even consider hiring them.
This is going to take a lot of investment over a long period of time. Considering there were questions asked over Mercedes long term commitment to F1 this year. I'm not sure we'll ever get to see the fruits of this endeavour. Ultimately I fear this is nothing more than a marketing exercise.
There isn't a ready pool of applicants available for them to recruit. You don't win F1 titles by hiring the most diverse team, you hire the most talented and experienced.
If Mercedes are serious about improving diversity, they're going to have to start with education programmes at secondary school level to try and drive more minorities into engineering degrees. They are then going to have to follow this up with investment into other forms of motor sport where these graduates can cut their teeth before they can even consider hiring them.
This is going to take a lot of investment over a long period of time. Considering there were questions asked over Mercedes long term commitment to F1 this year. I'm not sure we'll ever get to see the fruits of this endeavour. Ultimately I fear this is nothing more than a marketing exercise.
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