Black Mercedes.
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
That's all very sensible, yet I'm still not sure positive discrimination to artificially compensate and correct the effects of from past wrongs is the way forward. By your point, that in itself sets in place a new culture of discrimination that would also likely continue in its effects after the initial imbalance has been restored.
Yes that is very true. It's an incredibly complex situation that isn't easy to resolve and one solution can lead to other problems. With any solution like positive discrimination it will go too far in one direction before snapping back. Just leave things as they are and there will be many lost generations until things truly balance. My own view is that there will be imbalances with positive discrimination but not as many or as bad as if there wasn't. Who really knows which one of us, if either, is right though?It's one of my personal bugbears of modern "want it all now" society is that many think every problem has a 100% right or wrong solution. Not everything in life can be summed up in a tweet or a meme but when world leaders think it can we're all in trouble.
Not sure that comparing the fashion industry to the motorsport industry really works. If you're a good looking person of the right build and height you've probably got a good chance of getting a modelling gig if you knock on a few doors. Worst case scenario you'll have to pay a couple of hundred for portfolio shots.
Now try that as a kid who's dreaming of being F1 champion. Most will probably laugh in your face. Those that don't will ask you to come back when you've won a few kart titles. Now where do you get the six figures from to do that these days? Then if you do manage that part somehow they will then want another six figures per season to run you in F3 etc.
Now try that as a kid who's dreaming of being F1 champion. Most will probably laugh in your face. Those that don't will ask you to come back when you've won a few kart titles. Now where do you get the six figures from to do that these days? Then if you do manage that part somehow they will then want another six figures per season to run you in F3 etc.
Kraken said:
Not sure that comparing the fashion industry to the motorsport industry really works. If you're a good looking person of the right build and height you've probably got a good chance of getting a modelling gig if you knock on a few doors. Worst case scenario you'll have to pay a couple of hundred for portfolio shots.
Now try that as a kid who's dreaming of being F1 champion. Most will probably laugh in your face. Those that don't will ask you to come back when you've won a few kart titles. Now where do you get the six figures from to do that these days? Then if you do manage that part somehow they will then want another six figures per season to run you in F3 etc.
Also there is a niche of fashion that appeals to every niche of society... It's very much a self balancing thing. Although obviously I would agree that certain black models have broken through in to areas of fashion that were previously underrepresented - but that to me suggests lazy familiarity with what worked historically when selecting who to send down the runway, not active discrimination with racial motivations behind it. That is another example of lingering effects of less equal times for sure.. but also another example of what has now been corrected.Now try that as a kid who's dreaming of being F1 champion. Most will probably laugh in your face. Those that don't will ask you to come back when you've won a few kart titles. Now where do you get the six figures from to do that these days? Then if you do manage that part somehow they will then want another six figures per season to run you in F3 etc.
When I'm not doing fatuous work for TV I do a lot for fashion too, all on technical basis - nothing to do with talent. I would say that BAME representation in terms of models is sky high now, the newer generations of fashion shoppers want to look urban and real and representative of... just about everything. If you break down the % ratios of different cultures in our society, I would say that you will find a near perfect representation in he fashion industry, at least so far as the talent we see. Behind the scenes...? On the artistic/creative side (choreography, hair, make-up, set/scenic design, clothes designers and and producers) you see the same healthy balance. On the technical side of putting the productions together, as with the technical side of F1, there is an apparent BAME imbalance.
It could simply be that the primary root cause for this imbalance in technical job roles vs more creative/artistic/presentation roles, is actually to do with the roots of different cultures. If we're seeking to examine how early education and cultural socialising might influence a persons future career - we should also be mindful that several hundred generations of life, breeding, experience when cultures were physically split by geography will also inevitably be a significant factor in the career preference of different groups. It will effect to a degree a persons personality, interests, and strengths in certain areas. Not any one particular person of course, but there are going to be trends across different cultural backgrounds that overall stand distinct of one another.
EDIT: My point being that each time an imbalance is identified, it's probably as likely that its a result of differences across cultures that should be celebrated as it proof of systemic racism at play. Some things may need to be fixed still, but many examples probably shouldn't be 'fixed'.
Edited by TheDeuce on Wednesday 8th July 10:32
Kraken said:
Not sure that comparing the fashion industry to the motorsport industry really works. If you're a good looking person of the right build and height you've probably got a good chance of getting a modelling gig if you knock on a few doors. Worst case scenario you'll have to pay a couple of hundred for portfolio shots.
Now try that as a kid who's dreaming of being F1 champion. Most will probably laugh in your face. Those that don't will ask you to come back when you've won a few kart titles. Now where do you get the six figures from to do that these days? Then if you do manage that part somehow they will then want another six figures per season to run you in F3 etc.
The Mercedes initiative is not about drivers.Now try that as a kid who's dreaming of being F1 champion. Most will probably laugh in your face. Those that don't will ask you to come back when you've won a few kart titles. Now where do you get the six figures from to do that these days? Then if you do manage that part somehow they will then want another six figures per season to run you in F3 etc.
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
Ok vdn, as an employer myself I can see you're still struggling and in consideration of others who may be jaded, I will keep this brief.
1.
When Naomi (Campbell) first broke into mainstream we were delighted but not surprised as we knew her from the times spent hanging together in South London.
Some 7 or 8 months later there was a significant uplift in new black candidates, both male and female, knocking on the industry doors. We susbequently worked with several other black models, both male and female, since that mainstream breakthrough by Naomi.
CUT TO: Motorsport.
Hamilton broke through into mainstream 15 years ago.
But there hasn't been a significant uplift of black candidates knocking on the industry doors.
In a sector where it's all about gaining 0.01 of a second, you would think 15 years is enough time for motivated black talent to step forward into their chosen career and begin knocking on doors.
Equal Opportunity and Discrimination Laws have been in situ for many years.
In the UK at least.
Could it simply be down to different interests, or lack of motivation perhaps ?
I do realise however that humans can find it easier to sit back and blame something else. A particular Government of the day is usually a good place to start.
2.
Your command of prose and punctuation has room for improvement.
See you soon
You keep saying you’ll see me soon. Are you a stalker, a spy or a fantasist. I reckon the latter 1.
When Naomi (Campbell) first broke into mainstream we were delighted but not surprised as we knew her from the times spent hanging together in South London.
Some 7 or 8 months later there was a significant uplift in new black candidates, both male and female, knocking on the industry doors. We susbequently worked with several other black models, both male and female, since that mainstream breakthrough by Naomi.
CUT TO: Motorsport.
Hamilton broke through into mainstream 15 years ago.
But there hasn't been a significant uplift of black candidates knocking on the industry doors.
In a sector where it's all about gaining 0.01 of a second, you would think 15 years is enough time for motivated black talent to step forward into their chosen career and begin knocking on doors.
Equal Opportunity and Discrimination Laws have been in situ for many years.
In the UK at least.
Could it simply be down to different interests, or lack of motivation perhaps ?
I do realise however that humans can find it easier to sit back and blame something else. A particular Government of the day is usually a good place to start.
2.
Your command of prose and punctuation has room for improvement.
See you soon
As for motorsport and F1... the powers that be, teams and almost every notable figure are all agreement... a diversity drive is a good thing.
Must sting.
You think it’s a bad thing; you’ve made that clear... for reasons you can’t properly explain but then, that’s no surprise given you’re comparing being a model to being involved in motorsport.
You’ve been hanging around with models for too long and it’s rubbed off. Thick as two short.
Little wonder you find yourself stuck
You simply do not understand the fundamentals.The difference between you and Hamilton is your own personal philosophy.
Hamilton has not blamed anyone for his success
Nice try. No cigar
It's there for all to see, vdn believes black workers in the fashion industry are stupid
How does that make you feel ?
2618 said:
It could be claimed that Lewis' climb to the top of F1 shows a healthy lack of racism and diversity culture in motorsport over the past 10+ years, at least in formula racing.
1 in 774 drivers isn't a great claim (with about 1 in 60 over the last 10 years i reckon)but as above, the Mercedes initiative is about the team
& it's not like Mercedes have even stated a target for diversity ...just they merely recognise a lack of it & are looking into it
somehow the mere recognition of this, is offensive to what appears to be mainly white males (who seem to have gone off on various tangents)
Edited by angrymoby on Wednesday 8th July 11:04
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
Ok vdn, as an employer myself I can see you're still struggling and in consideration of others who may be jaded, I will keep this brief.
1.
When Naomi (Campbell) first broke into mainstream we were delighted but not surprised as we knew her from the times spent hanging together in South London.
Some 7 or 8 months later there was a significant uplift in new black candidates, both male and female, knocking on the industry doors. We susbequently worked with several other black models, both male and female, since that mainstream breakthrough by Naomi.
CUT TO: Motorsport.
Hamilton broke through into mainstream 15 years ago.
But there hasn't been a significant uplift of black candidates knocking on the industry doors.
In a sector where it's all about gaining 0.01 of a second, you would think 15 years is enough time for motivated black talent to step forward into their chosen career and begin knocking on doors.
Equal Opportunity and Discrimination Laws have been in situ for many years.
In the UK at least.
Could it simply be down to different interests, or lack of motivation perhaps ?
I do realise however that humans can find it easier to sit back and blame something else. A particular Government of the day is usually a good place to start.
2.
Your command of prose and punctuation has room for improvement.
See you soon
You keep saying you’ll see me soon. Are you a stalker, a spy or a fantasist. I reckon the latter 1.
When Naomi (Campbell) first broke into mainstream we were delighted but not surprised as we knew her from the times spent hanging together in South London.
Some 7 or 8 months later there was a significant uplift in new black candidates, both male and female, knocking on the industry doors. We susbequently worked with several other black models, both male and female, since that mainstream breakthrough by Naomi.
CUT TO: Motorsport.
Hamilton broke through into mainstream 15 years ago.
But there hasn't been a significant uplift of black candidates knocking on the industry doors.
In a sector where it's all about gaining 0.01 of a second, you would think 15 years is enough time for motivated black talent to step forward into their chosen career and begin knocking on doors.
Equal Opportunity and Discrimination Laws have been in situ for many years.
In the UK at least.
Could it simply be down to different interests, or lack of motivation perhaps ?
I do realise however that humans can find it easier to sit back and blame something else. A particular Government of the day is usually a good place to start.
2.
Your command of prose and punctuation has room for improvement.
See you soon
As for motorsport and F1... the powers that be, teams and almost every notable figure are all agreement... a diversity drive is a good thing.
Must sting.
You think it’s a bad thing; you’ve made that clear... for reasons you can’t properly explain but then, that’s no surprise given you’re comparing being a model to being involved in motorsport.
You’ve been hanging around with models for too long and it’s rubbed off. Thick as two short.
Little wonder you find yourself stuck
You simply do not understand the fundamentals.The difference between you and Hamilton is your own personal philosophy.
Hamilton has not blamed anyone for his success
Nice try. No cigar
It's there for all to see, vdn believes black workers in the fashion industry are stupid
How does that make you feel ?
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
Ok vdn, as an employer myself I can see you're still struggling and in consideration of others who may be jaded, I will keep this brief.
1.
When Naomi (Campbell) first broke into mainstream we were delighted but not surprised as we knew her from the times spent hanging together in South London.
Some 7 or 8 months later there was a significant uplift in new black candidates, both male and female, knocking on the industry doors. We susbequently worked with several other black models, both male and female, since that mainstream breakthrough by Naomi.
CUT TO: Motorsport.
Hamilton broke through into mainstream 15 years ago.
But there hasn't been a significant uplift of black candidates knocking on the industry doors.
In a sector where it's all about gaining 0.01 of a second, you would think 15 years is enough time for motivated black talent to step forward into their chosen career and begin knocking on doors.
Equal Opportunity and Discrimination Laws have been in situ for many years.
In the UK at least.
Could it simply be down to different interests, or lack of motivation perhaps ?
I do realise however that humans can find it easier to sit back and blame something else. A particular Government of the day is usually a good place to start.
2.
Your command of prose and punctuation has room for improvement.
See you soon
You keep saying you’ll see me soon. Are you a stalker, a spy or a fantasist. I reckon the latter 1.
When Naomi (Campbell) first broke into mainstream we were delighted but not surprised as we knew her from the times spent hanging together in South London.
Some 7 or 8 months later there was a significant uplift in new black candidates, both male and female, knocking on the industry doors. We susbequently worked with several other black models, both male and female, since that mainstream breakthrough by Naomi.
CUT TO: Motorsport.
Hamilton broke through into mainstream 15 years ago.
But there hasn't been a significant uplift of black candidates knocking on the industry doors.
In a sector where it's all about gaining 0.01 of a second, you would think 15 years is enough time for motivated black talent to step forward into their chosen career and begin knocking on doors.
Equal Opportunity and Discrimination Laws have been in situ for many years.
In the UK at least.
Could it simply be down to different interests, or lack of motivation perhaps ?
I do realise however that humans can find it easier to sit back and blame something else. A particular Government of the day is usually a good place to start.
2.
Your command of prose and punctuation has room for improvement.
See you soon
As for motorsport and F1... the powers that be, teams and almost every notable figure are all agreement... a diversity drive is a good thing.
Must sting.
You think it’s a bad thing; you’ve made that clear... for reasons you can’t properly explain but then, that’s no surprise given you’re comparing being a model to being involved in motorsport.
You’ve been hanging around with models for too long and it’s rubbed off. Thick as two short.
Little wonder you find yourself stuck
You simply do not understand the fundamentals.The difference between you and Hamilton is your own personal philosophy.
Hamilton has not blamed anyone for his success
Nice try. No cigar
It's there for all to see, vdn believes black workers in the fashion industry are stupid
How does that make you feel ?
Vdn tries to backtrack
FAIL
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
Vdn tries to backtrack
FAIL
why don't you carry on ?
quite special
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
Vdn tries to backtrack
FAIL
why don't you carry on ?
quite special
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
Vdn tries to backtrack
FAIL
why don't you carry on ?
quite special
I sold that particular business once we'd made it 6x more profitable than when we acquired it. Was a great team effort and much fun.
With your attitude and prejudice it's hardly surprising the fashion industry wasn't for you
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
Vdn tries to backtrack
FAIL
why don't you carry on ?
quite special
I sold that particular business once we'd made it 6x more profitable than when we acquired it. Was a great team effort and much fun.
With your attitude and prejudice it's hardly surprising the fashion industry wasn't for you
Well for as long as you were involved; it obviously left its mark
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
vdn said:
sparta6 said:
Vdn tries to backtrack
FAIL
why don't you carry on ?
quite special
I sold that particular business once we'd made it 6x more profitable than when we acquired it. Was a great team effort and much fun.
With your attitude and prejudice it's hardly surprising the fashion industry wasn't for you
Well for as long as you were involved; it obviously left its mark
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