Lewis Hamilton (Vol. 2)

[Clockwork Cupcake]

TobyTR said:

the truth hurts, eh CC. You can roll your eyes as much as you want.

Whatever, mate. I know what I remember.

Nothing to do with 'truth' [sic] and everything to do with the groundswell of opinion. And that groundswell of opinion was that he was taking a massive risk. One that, with 20/20 hindsight, now seems like a 'no-brainer' to some.

You can act all superior if you want, and pour scorn on people who have a different opinion to you, and claim that true insiders like you knew all along that it was the OBVIOUS move, but you're just making yourself look like a bit of a twit.

[PhilAsia]

"Do a Schumacher"......Schumacher couldn't "do a Schumacher" at Mercedes.

It was Rosebud.

[TobyTR]

paulguitar said:

In 2013 Mercedes won three of nineteen races. The car was rarely front-running.

Hamilton was mostly thinking about the hybrid era and it worked out very well. That doesn't change the fact that he went to a team that was not particularly strong.

Paul, Mercedes finished 2nd in the Constructors Championship in 2013. An F1 car doesn't finish 2nd in the Constructors Championship if it is not very competitive. Those are the facts whether you like it or not. Mercedes were getting better year on year. Your cognitive dissonance towards Hamilton and Mercedes is on another level again.

[TobyTR]

Clockwork Cupcake said:

Whatever, mate. I know what I remember.

Nothing to do with 'truth' [sic] and everything to do with the groundswell of opinion. And that groundswell of opinion was that he was taking a massive risk. One that, with 20/20 hindsight, now seems like a 'no-brainer' to some.

You can act all superior if you want, and pour scorn on people who have a different opinion to you, and claim that true insiders like you knew all along that it was the OBVIOUS move, but you're just making yourself look like a bit of a twit.

If quoting Brundle makes me look a bit of a twit and laying down the obvious then so be it

[heebeegeetee]

paulguitar said:

TobyTR said:

I don't need many arm-chair warriors to fill me in on here when Brundle said what he said above and so did a few other experts.

The reaction to the move was mostly negative. Many experts through Hamilton was going primarily for a big payday. Particularly amusing to read this one now:

“Lewis Hamilton does not know much about racing history and so cannot learn from the mistakes of others. Perhaps he thinks that if it fails he will at least have the consolation of earning loads more money and being a bigger star, thanks to his hustling management that will sell his image here, there and everywhere. That might make him an international celebrity on a bigger scale than he is, but it will not make him a racing legend. Perhaps Mercedes will pull it off and then Hamilton will look clever, but I fear that this will be a move similar to James Hunt joining Wolf; Emerson Fittipaldi joining Fittipaldi, Jacques Villeneuve moving to BAR or Niki Lauda’s ill-fated move to Brabham. History relates that you do not leave a winning team in F1 unless it is to go to another proven winner…” - Joe Saward

TobyTR said:

nice to see you backed off about Merc not having a front-running car in 2013

In 2013 Mercedes won three of nineteen races. The car was rarely front-running.

Hamilton was mostly thinking about the hybrid era and it worked out very well. That doesn't change the fact that he went to a team that was not particularly strong.

I think it's worth remembering that Lewis has only driven for two F1 teams - one that was in decline at the time, and one that had won 3 races by the time he went there.

[paulguitar]

TobyTR said:

paulguitar said:

In 2013 Mercedes won three of nineteen races. The car was rarely front-running.

Hamilton was mostly thinking about the hybrid era and it worked out very well. That doesn't change the fact that he went to a team that was not particularly strong.

Paul, Mercedes finished 2nd in the Constructors Championship in 2013. An F1 car doesn't finish 2nd in the Constructors Championship if it is not very competitive. Those are the facts whether you like it or not. Mercedes were getting better year on year. Your cognitive dissonance towards Hamilton and Mercedes is on another level again.

I watched all of the races in 2013 and attended three of them. The Merc was nowhere near the Red Bull most of the time. Hamilton finished 4th in the standings and Rosberg 6th.

It's interesting you accuse me of cognitive dissonance and yet you ignore everything that doesn't suit your own personal narrative. For example, you've found a quote where Martin Brundle is supportive of Hamilton's move in 2013, and yet ignore all of the experts who felt it was a very questionable decision. No amount of your gaslighting is going to change reality for those of us who remember the situation well.

[Muzzer79]

It's worth remembering that Red Bull won only 4 races in 2013, up to Hungary.

It was relatively close up to that point.

Then Vettel won all of the remaining races from Belgium onwards - 9 in a row.

The Mercedes definitely achieved second in the WCC through consistency rather than outright pace. Rosberg and Hamilton only got 9 podiums between them, including 3 wins.

[HighwayStar]

paulguitar said:

TobyTR said:

paulguitar said:

In 2013 Mercedes won three of nineteen races. The car was rarely front-running.

Hamilton was mostly thinking about the hybrid era and it worked out very well. That doesn't change the fact that he went to a team that was not particularly strong.

Paul, Mercedes finished 2nd in the Constructors Championship in 2013. An F1 car doesn't finish 2nd in the Constructors Championship if it is not very competitive. Those are the facts whether you like it or not. Mercedes were getting better year on year. Your cognitive dissonance towards Hamilton and Mercedes is on another level again.

I watched all of the races in 2013 and attended three of them. The Merc was nowhere near the Red Bull most of the time. Hamilton finished 4th in the standings and Rosberg 6th.

It's interesting you accuse me of cognitive dissonance and yet you ignore everything that doesn't suit your own personal narrative. For example, you've found a quote where Martin Brundle is supportive of Hamilton's move in 2013, and yet ignore all of the experts who felt it was a very questionable decision. No amount of your gaslighting is going to change reality for those of us who remember the situation well.

Even his own team mate at the time though Lewis was making a mistake.
Jenson Button: Lewis Hamilton has made wrong decision to leave McLaren.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/15/jens...

[MCBrowncoat]

HighwayStar said:

paulguitar said:

TobyTR said:

paulguitar said:

In 2013 Mercedes won three of nineteen races. The car was rarely front-running.

Hamilton was mostly thinking about the hybrid era and it worked out very well. That doesn't change the fact that he went to a team that was not particularly strong.

Paul, Mercedes finished 2nd in the Constructors Championship in 2013. An F1 car doesn't finish 2nd in the Constructors Championship if it is not very competitive. Those are the facts whether you like it or not. Mercedes were getting better year on year. Your cognitive dissonance towards Hamilton and Mercedes is on another level again.

I watched all of the races in 2013 and attended three of them. The Merc was nowhere near the Red Bull most of the time. Hamilton finished 4th in the standings and Rosberg 6th.

It's interesting you accuse me of cognitive dissonance and yet you ignore everything that doesn't suit your own personal narrative. For example, you've found a quote where Martin Brundle is supportive of Hamilton's move in 2013, and yet ignore all of the experts who felt it was a very questionable decision. No amount of your gaslighting is going to change reality for those of us who remember the situation well.

Even his own team mate at the time though Lewis was making a mistake.
Jenson Button: Lewis Hamilton has made wrong decision to leave McLaren.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/oct/15/jens...

It's very easy to google what people were saying about it at the time. Quite a lot of opinions here:

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/24181/10039850/w...

In the Top Gear interview he did in 2012 after the move had been announced, Lewis' own words were "...everyone is criticising it, everyone has their own opinions"

Lewis has even said even his dad didn't like the decision.

[angrymoby]

TobyTR said:

paulguitar said:

In 2013 Mercedes won three of nineteen races. The car was rarely front-running.

Hamilton was mostly thinking about the hybrid era and it worked out very well. That doesn't change the fact that he went to a team that was not particularly strong.

Paul, Mercedes finished 2nd in the Constructors Championship in 2013. An F1 car doesn't finish 2nd in the Constructors Championship if it is not very competitive. Those are the facts whether you like it or not. Mercedes were getting better year on year. Your cognitive dissonance towards Hamilton and Mercedes is on another level again.

just checking, but didn't you get rather uppity in another thread at the suggestion that Schumacher's '96 F310 was competitive ...as it won 3 races & Ferrari finished second in the WDC?

what were you saying about 'cognitive dissonance'?

[nickfrog]

Whichever way you cut it, it looks like Hamilton made some seriously smart decisions, which is probably also the mark of a great driver.

For all his skills, Alonso seem to have made pretty poor choices by contrast.

[MustangGT]

TobyTR said:

No it wasn't. Mercedes had consistently the second-best car in 2013 and they were on the up from 2012 after Rosberg took a race win and multiple podiums.

You claim Mercedes were on the up in 2012. Absolutely not true, in 2011 they finished 4th in the WCC with 165 points. In 2012 with the same 2 drivers they came 5th with just 142 points. They were on the way down not up. That changed in 2013 when they changed Schumacher for Hamilton. All of a sudden they came 2nd with 360 points.

Part of this was down to Rosberg improving, but a lot has to be the change from MS to LH. A driver well past his best changed for a driver in his prime.

Also the Rosberg win in 2012 was partly a result of extreme good luck. Button would likely have won the race if no screw ups in the pits.

[Clockwork Cupcake]

nickfrog said:

For all his skills, Alonso seem to have made pretty poor choices by contrast.

That's putting it mildly

[PhilAsia]

On the back foot and needing to brush up on his racecraft. An amusingly self-deprecatory observation of his skill set.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.hamilton-...

Quite humble for a 7 time WDC.

[Jasandjules]

Well he mugged Lando and Gasly today, so I reckon he is still doing ok... Saw it coming a corner or two earlier and set it up...

[General Price]

Ferrari really should have hired Hamilton to win them the Championship.He is the only driver on the grid who would tell them their strategy calls are crap and what they should be doing.

[g4ry13]

General Price said:

Ferrari really should have hired Hamilton to win them the Championship.He is the only driver on the grid who would tell them their strategy calls are crap and what they should be doing.

Short memory? What about last weekend?

[Wills2]

g4ry13 said:

General Price said:

Ferrari really should have hired Hamilton to win them the Championship.He is the only driver on the grid who would tell them their strategy calls are crap and what they should be doing.

Short memory? What about last weekend?

Well he certainly told them that their strategy call was crap and questioned it immediately.

[ch37]

PhilAsia said:

On the back foot and needing to brush up on his racecraft. An amusingly self-deprecatory observation of his skill set.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/video.hamilton-...

Quite humble for a 7 time WDC.

Great chat from Lewis, a few posters here would do well to take a few minutes out of their angry lives to watch that.

[PhilAsia]

g4ry13 said:

General Price said:

Ferrari really should have hired Hamilton to win them the Championship.He is the only driver on the grid who would tell them their strategy calls are crap and what they should be doing.

Short memory? What about last weekend?

Lewis went with the strategy team, probably thinking that double stacking would favour Max as George would come out behind Max, but both George an he staying out might have a very slim chance.

George, rightly, looked after himself and changed to new softs.

There are other options where Lewis took new tyres, with GR not taking the softs..., or GR does take softs as well, but then those just favoured Max.