Honda to leave F1

Honda to leave F1

Author
Discussion

kiseca

8,270 posts

177 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
kiseca said:
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.

So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.

Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
Which bit are you reading - can you link to it?

There have been various proposals made to alter the hybrid (electrical) side to reduce costs but none confirmed yet so far as I'm aware. The ICE specs (still the most complex element) remain unchanged.

Regards evolution the current PU and the knowledge that the UK operation staff have would be potentially slightly useful as a starting point if RB were to bring in a new company to operate the facility. But realistically it's a huge learning curve and they'd be years behind the cutting edge. The actual R&D development and refinement was all done in Japan - the UK facility obviously understand enough to assemble and maintain/problem solve the units but not the whole picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Formula_One_World_Championship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines

The "Power Units" section. I thought the 2021 changes had been postponed a year and that included significant engine changes, hence my surprise that so many are placing value on the Honda IP. So either things have moved on since I last paid attention to the specs and I'm out of date, or it was never as concrete as I thought in the first place, or the Honda IP won't be worth that much in 2022.

The Wiki article comes to no conclusions, just confirms that there were going to be significant engine changes in 2022 but there still seem to be other proposals.
Red Bull (Marko) has said that if they were to take on the Honda IP, it would be conditional on an engine spec freeze from 2022 - in order to give them a chance.

Can't really see Renault, Ferrari or Mercedes conceding to help them in this way, but the decision isn't completely in their hands.
OK thanks, that makes it all make sense to me. thumbup

andburg

3,990 posts

127 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
i thought the '21 changes were moving to '22 and in basic form are an evolution of the current MGU-K and ICE with removal of the MGU-H.

Given a lot of Honda's failures have been MGU-H related, and Red Bull's preference I believe the ICE and MGU-K are at least comparable to the Renault unit they had previously. We all saw Brazil last year where the Honda beat the Merc to the line in a straight drag race so its obviously not a million miles away.

RBR must believe the Honda PU without MGU-H gives them some advantage or they simply wouldn't be taking this stance.

thegreenhell

7,658 posts

177 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
Except they're not getting rid of MGU-H in 2022. Those proposals were scrapped when it became clear that no new manufacturers were going to enter, so the rules are now essentially frozen until 2025, with ever-diminishing development allowed.

Honda have already said they're going to bring forward their 2022 PU to 2021 in order to give RBR the best chance next year. If they do end up taking over the Honda IP, that is the PU they'll take through until 2025.

HighwayStar

3,037 posts

102 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
Let the games begin...

Red Bull threaten to quit F1, Ferrari block engine freeze
https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-f1-quit-thr...

mike-v2tmf

287 posts

37 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
Not the first time they've threatened to leave , crying into your soup is never a good look

Tim M DB7V

82 posts

132 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
This is a brilliant thread.
It seems likely that Red Bull have the cash to get the engine (if Honda are willing) and it would surely be a win win situation for Honda with loadsa money that they wouldn't get otherwise.
F1 definitely needs another engine manufacturer (or it will soon be a one make series + Ferrari!!).
I just wish that they would really dumb down the aero so we can get back to closer racing. How about M23 front wings and no winglets etc.

TheDeuce

7,268 posts

24 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
Muzzer79 said:
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
kiseca said:
And if I'm reading Wiki correctly there's quite a bit of evolution that needs to happen on the engine between the 2021 specs and 2022 specs. It's not just copy and evolve the current engine. The 2022 engines are quite different, unless I'm mistaken.

So the current IP would be a starting point but would need an experienced team who know the specs inside out to develop their first racing engine from the last Honda unit.

Am I missing some important factor about the engine specs over the next 5 - 6 years?
Which bit are you reading - can you link to it?

There have been various proposals made to alter the hybrid (electrical) side to reduce costs but none confirmed yet so far as I'm aware. The ICE specs (still the most complex element) remain unchanged.

Regards evolution the current PU and the knowledge that the UK operation staff have would be potentially slightly useful as a starting point if RB were to bring in a new company to operate the facility. But realistically it's a huge learning curve and they'd be years behind the cutting edge. The actual R&D development and refinement was all done in Japan - the UK facility obviously understand enough to assemble and maintain/problem solve the units but not the whole picture.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Formula_One_World_Championship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_engines

The "Power Units" section. I thought the 2021 changes had been postponed a year and that included significant engine changes, hence my surprise that so many are placing value on the Honda IP. So either things have moved on since I last paid attention to the specs and I'm out of date, or it was never as concrete as I thought in the first place, or the Honda IP won't be worth that much in 2022.

The Wiki article comes to no conclusions, just confirms that there were going to be significant engine changes in 2022 but there still seem to be other proposals.
Red Bull (Marko) has said that if they were to take on the Honda IP, it would be conditional on an engine spec freeze from 2022 - in order to give them a chance.

Can't really see Renault, Ferrari or Mercedes conceding to help them in this way, but the decision isn't completely in their hands.
Yes, it's not a spec change they wish to avoid - they just want the freeze as they can't evolve the Honda PU beyond what it is - if they go that route. They don't want the other's to be able to evolve their own PU design, within the same outline spec.

Farts chance in a tornado of getting a freeze imo... But I can see why that is what they 'want'.

TheDeuce

7,268 posts

24 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
HighwayStar said:
Let the games begin...

Red Bull threaten to quit F1, Ferrari block engine freeze
https://www.planetf1.com/news/red-bull-f1-quit-thr...
As predicted by me a few posts back smile

No way will Ferrari accept a PU update freeze given what they have today...

And they're all squared with the FIA after their cheating episode so now back at full force, able to veto or simply call up whoever at Liberty/FIA and explain they will leave if there is a freeze... If RB's backup plan is to defy what Ferrari need then they need a quick rethink.

jsf

19,251 posts

194 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
Deesee said:
The CEO has control over the board.. and the debt behind it.. has a personal 20% shareholding and controls over 50% of it.
The company policy wont be swayed by any minor shareholder, even if they have the ear of the CEO.
AM and it's board direction is much bigger than the racing team Stroll is rebranding. Billions wont be wasted on a vanity project by guys like the consortium and Vettel is not part of that consortium, at best he will have a PR role to play in building up the AM brand.
If it doesn't work out, he will be out on his ear.

Deesee

4,532 posts

41 months

Friday 16th October
quotequote all
jsf said:
Deesee said:
The CEO has control over the board.. and the debt behind it.. has a personal 20% shareholding and controls over 50% of it.
The company policy wont be swayed by any minor shareholder, even if they have the ear of the CEO.
AM and it's board direction is much bigger than the racing team Stroll is rebranding. Billions wont be wasted on a vanity project by guys like the consortium and Vettel is not part of that consortium, at best he will have a PR role to play in building up the AM brand.
If it doesn't work out, he will be out on his ear.
Haha, now that’s enough on here, let’s let them play on the fantasy that Red Bull will somehow acquire Honda IP..and then somehow re configure the engines to run Bio Fuels as at 22/23..

I’ve let on enough, no more on this subject from me. Xx


dobly

609 posts

117 months

Monday 19th October
quotequote all
Honda - Mugen.
Sakura - Milton Keynes.