Another 7 years of Mercedes dominance ?

[kambites]

TheDeuce said:

But at the sharp end of F1, they are surprisingly shabby.

Is it that surprising? However they started out, Ferrari are first and foremost a road car manufacturer and historically road car manufacturers have struggled in F1 more often than not. Even those who have been successful, have generally been successful by buying a team, funding it well, providing it with an engine, and then largely leaving it to its own devices (at least in the last few decades). Look at the times major car manufacturers have actually run their own F1 team in the last 40 years... how many have succeeded?

As you say, the times Ferrari have been successful have tended to be the times the Ferrari F1 team aren't actually being run by the Ferrari company.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 18th October 19:03

[TheDeuce]

kambites said:

TheDeuce said:

But at the sharp end of F1, they are surprisingly shabby.

Is it that surprising? However they started out, Ferrari are first and foremost a road car manufacturer and historically road car manufacturers have struggled in F1 more often than not. Even those who have been successful, have generally been successful by buying a team, funding it well, providing it with an engine, and then largely leaving it to its own devices (at least in the last few decades). Look at the times major car manufacturers have actually run their own F1 team in the last 40 years... how many have succeeded?

As you say, the times Ferrari have been successful have tended to be the times the Ferrari F1 team aren't actually being run by the Ferrari company.

Edited by kambites on Sunday 18th October 19:03

Well quite. I meant 'surprising' compared to the general assumption they're successful in F1 because they're so deeply aligned with it. The record shows they are not actually that successful at all. But being fair minded, they're also not idiots - they can play the role of slightly untrustworthy underdogs coming second best and that serves their marketing purposes perfectly well. The current situation doesn't serve them very well at all but it is temporary and they only have themselves to blame for it..

I can't say I admire Ferrari in terms of F1 and I'd always seek to run my own business with a very different attitude. But as an F1 fan I do think their presence is important and I would hope them to remain. F1 needs a dick dastardly team..

[Bo_apex]

I thought the Red Bull run was getting tiresome towards the end, but Mercedes have taken it to the extreme.

As others have mentioned it's unlikely the regulation changes will affect Merc's winning. Possible but unlikely

[TheDeuce]

Bo_apex said:

I thought the Red Bull run was getting tiresome towards the end, but Mercedes have taken it to the extreme.

As others have mentioned it's unlikely the regulation changes will affect Merc's winning. Possible but unlikely

Not much point in holding a constructors championship each year if the best team aren't going to win. I see it as very much for the other teams to learn from how Merc drive success and get up to date, and challenge them in those areas.

Merc will win so long as the others continue to lose.

[Bo_apex]

TheDeuce said:

Bo_apex said:

I thought the Red Bull run was getting tiresome towards the end, but Mercedes have taken it to the extreme.

As others have mentioned it's unlikely the regulation changes will affect Merc's winning. Possible but unlikely

Not much point in holding a constructors championship each year if the best team aren't going to win. I see it as very much for the other teams to learn from how Merc drive success and get up to date, and challenge them in those areas.

Merc will win so long as the others continue to lose.

Ofcourse.
Although the regulation change to hybrid virtually killed Red Bull's winning ability, and other teams, due to the 6 year headstart on hybrid development by Mercedes.
Or was it 7 years pre-development ?
Someone here will know more than me.

[TheDeuce]

Bo_apex said:

TheDeuce said:

Bo_apex said:

I thought the Red Bull run was getting tiresome towards the end, but Mercedes have taken it to the extreme.

As others have mentioned it's unlikely the regulation changes will affect Merc's winning. Possible but unlikely

Not much point in holding a constructors championship each year if the best team aren't going to win. I see it as very much for the other teams to learn from how Merc drive success and get up to date, and challenge them in those areas.

Merc will win so long as the others continue to lose.

Ofcourse.
Although the regulation change to hybrid virtually killed Red Bull's winning ability, and other teams, due to the 6 year headstart on hybrid development by Mercedes.
Or was it 7 years pre-development ?
Someone here will know more than me.

Whatever the full extent of the headstart was, we're now at a point of convergence (approx) in terms of power units. Yet the Mercedes overall solution to F1 is still ahead - It seems to be their attitude and team philosophy that bleeds in to and enhances every aspect of their performance.

[Bo_apex]

TheDeuce said:

Bo_apex said:

TheDeuce said:

Bo_apex said:

I thought the Red Bull run was getting tiresome towards the end, but Mercedes have taken it to the extreme.

As others have mentioned it's unlikely the regulation changes will affect Merc's winning. Possible but unlikely

Not much point in holding a constructors championship each year if the best team aren't going to win. I see it as very much for the other teams to learn from how Merc drive success and get up to date, and challenge them in those areas.

Merc will win so long as the others continue to lose.

Ofcourse.
Although the regulation change to hybrid virtually killed Red Bull's winning ability, and other teams, due to the 6 year headstart on hybrid development by Mercedes.
Or was it 7 years pre-development ?
Someone here will know more than me.

Whatever the full extent of the headstart was, we're now at a point of convergence (approx) in terms of power units. Yet the Mercedes overall solution to F1 is still ahead - It seems to be their attitude and team philosophy that bleeds in to and enhances every aspect of their performance.

No disputing Mercedes excellence and dominance.
But Moto GP is so much more a sport - I think they've so far had 8 different winners in 2020 !

[Exige77]

Bo_apex said:

TheDeuce said:

Bo_apex said:

I thought the Red Bull run was getting tiresome towards the end, but Mercedes have taken it to the extreme.

As others have mentioned it's unlikely the regulation changes will affect Merc's winning. Possible but unlikely

Not much point in holding a constructors championship each year if the best team aren't going to win. I see it as very much for the other teams to learn from how Merc drive success and get up to date, and challenge them in those areas.

Merc will win so long as the others continue to lose.

Ofcourse.
Although the regulation change to hybrid virtually killed Red Bull's winning ability, and other teams, due to the 6 year headstart on hybrid development by Mercedes.
Or was it 7 years pre-development ?
Someone here will know more than me.

Did Mercedes get the new regs “before” everyone else ? Or did they just do a better job ?

I think anyone is free to start development as soon as new rules are announced.

[TheDeuce]

Exige77 said:

Did Mercedes get the new regs “before” everyone else ? Or did they just do a better job ?

I think anyone is free to start development as soon as new rules are announced.

They contributed towards what the new spec could/should be - that's how it's explained officially. I think in reality F1 wanted Mercedes to return and Mercedes said 'sure - we'll come back when you agree the new PU's will be hybrid and roughly this spec'. Which is fair enough, there is no reason Merc would enter the sport unless it was known the specs would align with it's future image and marketing interests.

So anyway, whatever the details they had a long time to think about the challenge of a 1.6l hybrid PU when it was being discussed as a probable solution - and they also by all accounts were given the nod it would definitely be that spec ahead of the others.

What's interesting is that Renault were pushing for the same new spec too, or at least determined it should be hybrid. No word on how much lead time they were gifted but as we know, the first several years of their PU development was miles behind Merc.

[Exige77]

Didn’t VAG have some input also then never join F1 ?

And Renault instrumental in getting a V6 instead of an I4 ?

I might have misremembered (or made up) both of those

[TheDeuce]

Exige77 said:

Didn’t VAG have some input also then never join F1 ?

And Renault instrumental in getting a V6 instead of an I4 ?

I might have misremembered (or made up) both of those

Renault definitely wanted the spec they ended up with - which is odd given they immediately proved hopeless at build one.

They would have spoken to various manufacturers to see which direction to take the PU in advance of the change to see what would appeal. Turns out Mercedes got heavily involved day one in those discussions, I imagine F1 were very respectful of what Mercedes and Renault wanted to settle on.

By the same token they will be casting ideas around now for the next spec - one way or another it'll be the spec that the most number of potentially interested manufacturers might actually want to get behind.

[N0ddie]

Bo_apex said:

I think they've so far had 8 different winners in 2020 !

If Marc Marques wasn't injured though it would have been another year of No. 93 dominance.

[Bo_apex]

N0ddie said:

Bo_apex said:

I think they've so far had 8 different winners in 2020 !

If Marc Marques wasn't injured though it would have been another year of No. 93 dominance.

Probably right, and it's a strong reminder that MGP remains properly dangerous.

[thegreenhell]

TheDeuce said:

They contributed towards what the new spec could/should be - that's how it's explained officially. I think in reality F1 wanted Mercedes to return and Mercedes said 'sure - we'll come back when you agree the new PU's will be hybrid and roughly this spec'. Which is fair enough, there is no reason Merc would enter the sport unless it was known the specs would align with it's future image and marketing interests.

What? Mercedes were already in F1 for years before the hybrids came along.

[TheDeuce]

thegreenhell said:

TheDeuce said:

They contributed towards what the new spec could/should be - that's how it's explained officially. I think in reality F1 wanted Mercedes to return and Mercedes said 'sure - we'll come back when you agree the new PU's will be hybrid and roughly this spec'. Which is fair enough, there is no reason Merc would enter the sport unless it was known the specs would align with it's future image and marketing interests.

What? Mercedes were already in F1 for years before the hybrids came along.

Since 2010 (this time), what bit don't you understand?

[Teem50]

TheDeuce said:

Since 2010 (this time), what bit don't you understand?

So the engine behind Hamilton for his first WDC wasn't a Mercedes then. What was it?

[thegreenhell]

TheDeuce said:

Since 2010 (this time), what bit don't you understand?

Since 1995 as an engine supplier, and since 2000 as a major shareholder of McLaren. It was only because Ron didn't want to sell out to them completely, and because he wanted to start McLaren Automotive, that they went and bought Brawn to create their own works team instead. It was nothing to do with being lured back by the hybrid formula.

[Exige77]

Teem50 said:

TheDeuce said:

Since 2010 (this time), what bit don't you understand?

So the engine behind Hamilton for his first WDC wasn't a Mercedes then. What was it?

I think Mercedes where already an F1 Engine supplier since mid 1990s if I remember correctly.

[TheDeuce]

thegreenhell said:

TheDeuce said:

Since 2010 (this time), what bit don't you understand?

Since 1995 as an engine supplier, and since 2000 as a major shareholder of McLaren. It was only because Ron didn't want to sell out to them completely, and because he wanted to start McLaren Automotive, that they went and bought Brawn to create their own works team instead. It was nothing to do with being lured back by the hybrid formula.

They were toying with F1 as they would be expected to do ahead of potentially investing as heavily as they eventually did. They were working on their solution for a hybrid PU back in 2007 - probably nothing physical at that stage but were working alongside the FIA and FOM to make sure the spec was workable for the sport and the manufacturers, and of course they would also have steered the spec to something they were confident they could produce.. Renault and Ferrari were also involved in discussions of how the future of F1 power could look.

By 2009 all three had settled upon hybrid power for 2014 onward.

[TheDeuce]

Exige77 said:

Teem50 said:

TheDeuce said:

Since 2010 (this time), what bit don't you understand?

So the engine behind Hamilton for his first WDC wasn't a Mercedes then. What was it?

I think Mercedes where already an F1 Engine supplier since mid 1990s if I remember correctly.

yes they were. And at some point they clearly decided to explore routes to becoming more prevalent in the sport - ultimately they didn't invest big and secure themselves a works team until they knew that the hybrid PU's would be coming in a few years later.