Saudi Arabia added to 2021 calender
Discussion
Well, I for one am glad as I will be there watching, being based in KSA.
Queueing myself up for a hard time on this forum I’m sure, but hey-ho. There is a lot wrong with Saudi for sure, but also a lot of good things and good people. It’s a very young country - I mean in population terms - and the majority are very hungry for change. Of the guys and girls I work with, about 30% have been through university in the US or UK with the rest through the system in KSA. There are intelligent ones who are incredibly motivated, and there are 9-5’ers who are there for a salary and that’s it. Those are probably the minority though. Some of them are infuriating, but most are thoroughly enjoyable to work with. Proud of their country and traditions, but also quick to laugh at themselves.
A lot has changed and improved in the last 3 years. Obvious things like female drivers, but much more less obvious in terms of legislation and social norms. Seeing boys and girls in cafes etc enjoying themselves, holding hands etc is not strange anymore. 3 years ago it would be unseen. There is a strong traditional element that would prefer not to change, but they are mostly the elders and this will erode over time. The countries that I have seen quicker change don’t tend to have happy endings. Syria / Iran? Given the size of the youth population, it is hopefully inevitable that the change continues.
Interestingly, it’s the girls that seem to be at the forefront of the social change - I get welcome hugs in the office from more female Saudi colleagues than male - in an open plan mixed office.
If you are used to the local populations in UAE etc, then don’t assume that the stereotypes are the same with regard to work ethic or socializing with expats etc.
Like I said at the start, there is a lot wrong as well, but we all know that, and it’s been well stated in above posts.
At the end of the day, I’m here because my salary is an absurd multiple of my Uk salary. If I can be part of a catalyst for change then even better. I have also awarded about £20m of consultancy fees to Uk companies over the last couple of years, as well as specifying Uk standards for equipment and construction - keeping the “empire” ticking over, so don’t give me too much of a hard time!
Queueing myself up for a hard time on this forum I’m sure, but hey-ho. There is a lot wrong with Saudi for sure, but also a lot of good things and good people. It’s a very young country - I mean in population terms - and the majority are very hungry for change. Of the guys and girls I work with, about 30% have been through university in the US or UK with the rest through the system in KSA. There are intelligent ones who are incredibly motivated, and there are 9-5’ers who are there for a salary and that’s it. Those are probably the minority though. Some of them are infuriating, but most are thoroughly enjoyable to work with. Proud of their country and traditions, but also quick to laugh at themselves.
A lot has changed and improved in the last 3 years. Obvious things like female drivers, but much more less obvious in terms of legislation and social norms. Seeing boys and girls in cafes etc enjoying themselves, holding hands etc is not strange anymore. 3 years ago it would be unseen. There is a strong traditional element that would prefer not to change, but they are mostly the elders and this will erode over time. The countries that I have seen quicker change don’t tend to have happy endings. Syria / Iran? Given the size of the youth population, it is hopefully inevitable that the change continues.
Interestingly, it’s the girls that seem to be at the forefront of the social change - I get welcome hugs in the office from more female Saudi colleagues than male - in an open plan mixed office.
If you are used to the local populations in UAE etc, then don’t assume that the stereotypes are the same with regard to work ethic or socializing with expats etc.
Like I said at the start, there is a lot wrong as well, but we all know that, and it’s been well stated in above posts.
At the end of the day, I’m here because my salary is an absurd multiple of my Uk salary. If I can be part of a catalyst for change then even better. I have also awarded about £20m of consultancy fees to Uk companies over the last couple of years, as well as specifying Uk standards for equipment and construction - keeping the “empire” ticking over, so don’t give me too much of a hard time!
anonymous said:
[redacted]
And to my point, in fact histories point... the key is to mix and trade between cultures so they take from one another. Import a product or service and bit by bit you let some of the foreign culture in.It's not about which culture is best or correct. It's about looking beyond your own shores and new generations being allowed to get excited about what is out there, what can be bought back home and how that might in time change attitudes and what is (or isn't) considered acceptable.
Those that seek only to list what they disagree with in the middle east are at best limited in their thought process. It's just pointless virtue signalling to repeatedly say "I don't agree with XYZ". The useful thing to do is to look at what could influence those we think are not getting the best deal, and support it if it could be a positive influence. In the end the younger generation Saudi's that WILL be in power at some point will take from it what they choose to. I don't think there is anything bad about F1 rocking up in town with it's equality messages and women working on cars amongst men. They've invited the sport in, they know full well it's another western influence - yet they have chosen to go along with it. That's not bad in my view
Imad said:
Well, I for one am glad as I will be there watching, being based in KSA.
Queueing myself up for a hard time on this forum I’m sure, but hey-ho. There is a lot wrong with Saudi for sure, but also a lot of good things and good people. It’s a very young country - I mean in population terms - and the majority are very hungry for change. Of the guys and girls I work with, about 30% have been through university in the US or UK with the rest through the system in KSA. There are intelligent ones who are incredibly motivated, and there are 9-5’ers who are there for a salary and that’s it. Those are probably the minority though. Some of them are infuriating, but most are thoroughly enjoyable to work with. Proud of their country and traditions, but also quick to laugh at themselves.
A lot has changed and improved in the last 3 years. Obvious things like female drivers, but much more less obvious in terms of legislation and social norms. Seeing boys and girls in cafes etc enjoying themselves, holding hands etc is not strange anymore. 3 years ago it would be unseen. There is a strong traditional element that would prefer not to change, but they are mostly the elders and this will erode over time. The countries that I have seen quicker change don’t tend to have happy endings. Syria / Iran? Given the size of the youth population, it is hopefully inevitable that the change continues.
Interestingly, it’s the girls that seem to be at the forefront of the social change - I get welcome hugs in the office from more female Saudi colleagues than male - in an open plan mixed office.
If you are used to the local populations in UAE etc, then don’t assume that the stereotypes are the same with regard to work ethic or socializing with expats etc.
Like I said at the start, there is a lot wrong as well, but we all know that, and it’s been well stated in above posts.
At the end of the day, I’m here because my salary is an absurd multiple of my Uk salary. If I can be part of a catalyst for change then even better. I have also awarded about £20m of consultancy fees to Uk companies over the last couple of years, as well as specifying Uk standards for equipment and construction - keeping the “empire” ticking over, so don’t give me too much of a hard time!
Well said. Queueing myself up for a hard time on this forum I’m sure, but hey-ho. There is a lot wrong with Saudi for sure, but also a lot of good things and good people. It’s a very young country - I mean in population terms - and the majority are very hungry for change. Of the guys and girls I work with, about 30% have been through university in the US or UK with the rest through the system in KSA. There are intelligent ones who are incredibly motivated, and there are 9-5’ers who are there for a salary and that’s it. Those are probably the minority though. Some of them are infuriating, but most are thoroughly enjoyable to work with. Proud of their country and traditions, but also quick to laugh at themselves.
A lot has changed and improved in the last 3 years. Obvious things like female drivers, but much more less obvious in terms of legislation and social norms. Seeing boys and girls in cafes etc enjoying themselves, holding hands etc is not strange anymore. 3 years ago it would be unseen. There is a strong traditional element that would prefer not to change, but they are mostly the elders and this will erode over time. The countries that I have seen quicker change don’t tend to have happy endings. Syria / Iran? Given the size of the youth population, it is hopefully inevitable that the change continues.
Interestingly, it’s the girls that seem to be at the forefront of the social change - I get welcome hugs in the office from more female Saudi colleagues than male - in an open plan mixed office.
If you are used to the local populations in UAE etc, then don’t assume that the stereotypes are the same with regard to work ethic or socializing with expats etc.
Like I said at the start, there is a lot wrong as well, but we all know that, and it’s been well stated in above posts.
At the end of the day, I’m here because my salary is an absurd multiple of my Uk salary. If I can be part of a catalyst for change then even better. I have also awarded about £20m of consultancy fees to Uk companies over the last couple of years, as well as specifying Uk standards for equipment and construction - keeping the “empire” ticking over, so don’t give me too much of a hard time!
Insh’Allah I’ll be there too, I’m based in Dubai so not too far to travel.
Sandpit Steve said:
Imad said:
Well, I for one am glad as I will be there watching, being based in KSA.
Queueing myself up for a hard time on this forum I’m sure, but hey-ho. There is a lot wrong with Saudi for sure, but also a lot of good things and good people. It’s a very young country - I mean in population terms - and the majority are very hungry for change. Of the guys and girls I work with, about 30% have been through university in the US or UK with the rest through the system in KSA. There are intelligent ones who are incredibly motivated, and there are 9-5’ers who are there for a salary and that’s it. Those are probably the minority though. Some of them are infuriating, but most are thoroughly enjoyable to work with. Proud of their country and traditions, but also quick to laugh at themselves.
A lot has changed and improved in the last 3 years. Obvious things like female drivers, but much more less obvious in terms of legislation and social norms. Seeing boys and girls in cafes etc enjoying themselves, holding hands etc is not strange anymore. 3 years ago it would be unseen. There is a strong traditional element that would prefer not to change, but they are mostly the elders and this will erode over time. The countries that I have seen quicker change don’t tend to have happy endings. Syria / Iran? Given the size of the youth population, it is hopefully inevitable that the change continues.
Interestingly, it’s the girls that seem to be at the forefront of the social change - I get welcome hugs in the office from more female Saudi colleagues than male - in an open plan mixed office.
If you are used to the local populations in UAE etc, then don’t assume that the stereotypes are the same with regard to work ethic or socializing with expats etc.
Like I said at the start, there is a lot wrong as well, but we all know that, and it’s been well stated in above posts.
At the end of the day, I’m here because my salary is an absurd multiple of my Uk salary. If I can be part of a catalyst for change then even better. I have also awarded about £20m of consultancy fees to Uk companies over the last couple of years, as well as specifying Uk standards for equipment and construction - keeping the “empire” ticking over, so don’t give me too much of a hard time!
Well said. Queueing myself up for a hard time on this forum I’m sure, but hey-ho. There is a lot wrong with Saudi for sure, but also a lot of good things and good people. It’s a very young country - I mean in population terms - and the majority are very hungry for change. Of the guys and girls I work with, about 30% have been through university in the US or UK with the rest through the system in KSA. There are intelligent ones who are incredibly motivated, and there are 9-5’ers who are there for a salary and that’s it. Those are probably the minority though. Some of them are infuriating, but most are thoroughly enjoyable to work with. Proud of their country and traditions, but also quick to laugh at themselves.
A lot has changed and improved in the last 3 years. Obvious things like female drivers, but much more less obvious in terms of legislation and social norms. Seeing boys and girls in cafes etc enjoying themselves, holding hands etc is not strange anymore. 3 years ago it would be unseen. There is a strong traditional element that would prefer not to change, but they are mostly the elders and this will erode over time. The countries that I have seen quicker change don’t tend to have happy endings. Syria / Iran? Given the size of the youth population, it is hopefully inevitable that the change continues.
Interestingly, it’s the girls that seem to be at the forefront of the social change - I get welcome hugs in the office from more female Saudi colleagues than male - in an open plan mixed office.
If you are used to the local populations in UAE etc, then don’t assume that the stereotypes are the same with regard to work ethic or socializing with expats etc.
Like I said at the start, there is a lot wrong as well, but we all know that, and it’s been well stated in above posts.
At the end of the day, I’m here because my salary is an absurd multiple of my Uk salary. If I can be part of a catalyst for change then even better. I have also awarded about £20m of consultancy fees to Uk companies over the last couple of years, as well as specifying Uk standards for equipment and construction - keeping the “empire” ticking over, so don’t give me too much of a hard time!
Insh’Allah I’ll be there too, I’m based in Dubai so not too far to travel.
And in Jordan for another work trip years ago I was taught what a VPN did by a local lad that had taken to watching iPlayer
He's probably not going to grow up too bothered about stoning anyone if he's in part grown up with the wisdom that is Eastenders and Masterchef 
He also had the shrewdness to politely ask me if I thought his knowledge was worth 5 JD. I paid.. He had no issue with capitalism then!Ive been to Saudi last year and i have a good friend who works for Aramco for a fair few years. I had some pre-conceptions before i flew out. But actually i was pretty much impressed....well part from the taxi journey from the airport to hotel i think they are starting their own F1 team early!!!!
Hotel was impressive, food was cheap and walking around late at night, safe as houses.
Aramco have their own "towns" which to be honest they plan them to match Western styles. In the many restaurants there were plenty of woman wearing Western style clothes and saw plenty driving. They realise they need to change which may not be the speed we would like but its not our country. They are though pushing for Saudisation but they are struggling because of lack of experience compared to typical expat worker.
Hotel was impressive, food was cheap and walking around late at night, safe as houses.
Aramco have their own "towns" which to be honest they plan them to match Western styles. In the many restaurants there were plenty of woman wearing Western style clothes and saw plenty driving. They realise they need to change which may not be the speed we would like but its not our country. They are though pushing for Saudisation but they are struggling because of lack of experience compared to typical expat worker.
petop said:
Ive been to Saudi last year and i have a good friend who works for Aramco for a fair few years. I had some pre-conceptions before i flew out. But actually i was pretty much impressed....well part from the taxi journey from the airport to hotel i think they are starting their own F1 team early!!!!
Hotel was impressive, food was cheap and walking around late at night, safe as houses.
Aramco have their own "towns" which to be honest they plan them to match Western styles. In the many restaurants there were plenty of woman wearing Western style clothes and saw plenty driving. They realise they need to change which may not be the speed we would like but its not our country. They are though pushing for Saudisation but they are struggling because of lack of experience compared to typical expat worker.
That's the reality. They want to spend their mega money on being world class but that involves foreign engineering efforts along with endless other specialists. They have to open to the doors to established western hotel chains, restaurants, sports and amusement parks. They have to do that to be impressive (pretty damn important over there...) but in doing so the acceptance of overseas culture is unavoidable. This is why the hotels have public pools and cocktail bars - because the hotels obviously would rate very poorly if they did not. The global stage is real these days, and we all have to relax and find ways to accept different ideas on that stage.Hotel was impressive, food was cheap and walking around late at night, safe as houses.
Aramco have their own "towns" which to be honest they plan them to match Western styles. In the many restaurants there were plenty of woman wearing Western style clothes and saw plenty driving. They realise they need to change which may not be the speed we would like but its not our country. They are though pushing for Saudisation but they are struggling because of lack of experience compared to typical expat worker.
TheDeuce said:
I spent a little time in Dubai a couple of years ago. I noticed at the Mall they had imported a Waitrose supermarket and it was proudly advertising the sale of pork products (along with a disclaimer to not enter if you don't agree with such produce). If that's not proof that importing western brands can shift levels of acceptance then...
And in Jordan for another work trip years ago I was taught what a VPN did by a local lad that had taken to watching iPlayer He's probably not going to grow up too bothered about stoning anyone if he's in part grown up with the wisdom that is Eastenders and Masterchef He also had the shrewdness to politely ask me if I thought his knowledge was worth 5 JD. I paid.. He had no issue with capitalism then!
Ha yes, the “Pork Section” in Waitrose is one of those things you get used to. Yes, things are changing quite quickly in the region, driven by the younger generation of ‘locals’ being well educated, often abroad, well travelled and familiar with other cultures. And in Jordan for another work trip years ago I was taught what a VPN did by a local lad that had taken to watching iPlayer
He's probably not going to grow up too bothered about stoning anyone if he's in part grown up with the wisdom that is Eastenders and Masterchef He also had the shrewdness to politely ask me if I thought his knowledge was worth 5 JD. I paid.. He had no issue with capitalism then!In Dubai, one change that has happened due to the events of this year, is that the (state-run) alcohol shops have now started doing home deliveries! It’ll take some time before that happens in Saudi, but as yourself and others have said things there are changing quickly.
Sandpit Steve said:
TheDeuce said:
I spent a little time in Dubai a couple of years ago. I noticed at the Mall they had imported a Waitrose supermarket and it was proudly advertising the sale of pork products (along with a disclaimer to not enter if you don't agree with such produce). If that's not proof that importing western brands can shift levels of acceptance then...
And in Jordan for another work trip years ago I was taught what a VPN did by a local lad that had taken to watching iPlayer He's probably not going to grow up too bothered about stoning anyone if he's in part grown up with the wisdom that is Eastenders and Masterchef He also had the shrewdness to politely ask me if I thought his knowledge was worth 5 JD. I paid.. He had no issue with capitalism then!
Ha yes, the “Pork Section” in Waitrose is one of those things you get used to. Yes, things are changing quite quickly in the region, driven by the younger generation of ‘locals’ being well educated, often abroad, well travelled and familiar with other cultures. And in Jordan for another work trip years ago I was taught what a VPN did by a local lad that had taken to watching iPlayer
He's probably not going to grow up too bothered about stoning anyone if he's in part grown up with the wisdom that is Eastenders and Masterchef He also had the shrewdness to politely ask me if I thought his knowledge was worth 5 JD. I paid.. He had no issue with capitalism then!In Dubai, one change that has happened due to the events of this year, is that the (state-run) alcohol shops have now started doing home deliveries! It’ll take some time before that happens in Saudi, but as yourself and others have said things there are changing quickly.
TheDeuce said:
I know. 8000 years, virtually no change. Last 100 years, all sorts of western shock and horror at how far the ME is from what we consider acceptable. In the last 20 years however, change is occuring as fast as possible without actually ripping apart established society. Each new generation demands and drives change one way or another. They can't be as demanding as the western twitter kids just yet granted, but they can be socially vocal and just like in the west, businesses in the east adapt to the messages they receive via social. Change is afoot. The acceptance of F1 in SA just proves that those now with influence are not as terrified of letting in western influence as their last generation predecessors were.
And why should other cultures accept that Western ways are better ?The US has an appalling record with circa 25% of the world's total prisoners.
Also among it's long running track record;
Record rates of drug addiction
Record rates of homelessness
Record rates of murder
Record rates of racial injustice
Record rates of poverty
Record rates of crime
Not exactly a shining beacon for adopting the Western format
sparta6 said:
TheDeuce said:
I know. 8000 years, virtually no change. Last 100 years, all sorts of western shock and horror at how far the ME is from what we consider acceptable. In the last 20 years however, change is occuring as fast as possible without actually ripping apart established society. Each new generation demands and drives change one way or another. They can't be as demanding as the western twitter kids just yet granted, but they can be socially vocal and just like in the west, businesses in the east adapt to the messages they receive via social. Change is afoot. The acceptance of F1 in SA just proves that those now with influence are not as terrified of letting in western influence as their last generation predecessors were.
And why should other cultures accept that Western ways are better ?The US has an appalling record with circa 25% of the world's total prisoners.
Also among it's long running track record;
Record rates of drug addiction
Record rates of homelessness
Record rates of murder
Record rates of racial injustice
Record rates of poverty
Record rates of crime
Not exactly a shining beacon for adopting the Western format
It's about making one another cultures open so people on both sides can see how things can work differently and take from that what they will. That's those on this thread that look down on certain aspects of culture in the ME at present should think twice before saying F1 shouldn't go there. For several reasons, it should go there.
Quite a balanced discussion, really !
On that note, I can see that the F1 circus visiting town can help a regime and its people see new stuff. The example of a woman working in the pit is a good one, which I hadn't thought of.
Against that, maybe F1 a minority sport with limited scope to change hearts and minds, compared to say football.
Off-topic, will the enlightened decision for Qatar to host the World Cup help change hearts and minds?
On that note, I can see that the F1 circus visiting town can help a regime and its people see new stuff. The example of a woman working in the pit is a good one, which I hadn't thought of.
Against that, maybe F1 a minority sport with limited scope to change hearts and minds, compared to say football.
Off-topic, will the enlightened decision for Qatar to host the World Cup help change hearts and minds?
kevinon said:
Quite a balanced discussion, really !
On that note, I can see that the F1 circus visiting town can help a regime and its people see new stuff. The example of a woman working in the pit is a good one, which I hadn't thought of.
Against that, maybe F1 a minority sport with limited scope to change hearts and minds, compared to say football.
Off-topic, will the enlightened decision for Qatar to host the World Cup help change hearts and minds?
I don't, and I don't think anyone expects F1 to make any sort of measurable impact by itself - but the positive thing is that the region is importing stuff like F1 from the west, which obviously has been a concern in the past as the fear amongst leaders and elders is that the younger generations will see things that could undermine 'good behaviour'... Now however, things are relaxing a little - albeit for economic reasons perhaps, but the end result will be the same.On that note, I can see that the F1 circus visiting town can help a regime and its people see new stuff. The example of a woman working in the pit is a good one, which I hadn't thought of.
Against that, maybe F1 a minority sport with limited scope to change hearts and minds, compared to say football.
Off-topic, will the enlightened decision for Qatar to host the World Cup help change hearts and minds?
So it's not about proving there is an 'excuse' for F1 to take their money and go there - it's just a case of it being part of a general shift in attitude that should continue to do good, and it's also plain good business for both SA and F1.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff