Ask an F1 Engineer anything

[Sandpit Steve]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

IIRC the grid sensor is simply an induction loop in the floor that senses movement of the car, it’s a passive system and wouldn’t know when the lights went out.

I guess, in theory, the car could have been set to react to the timing system starting, via some communication mechanism with the pit wall - which would of course have been illegal, so maybe the grid sensor story was a cover for what they were actually up to.

The way I’d have probably done it, is with a high speed camera on the car pointing at the lights themselves, hoping to get a signal to the clutch a few ms ahead of the human driver. Modern LED lights switch off very quickly.

At athletics sprint competitions, there’s a 100ms delay in the system that measures fault starts - if you react to the (audio) start signal in less than 100ms, measured by pressure pads on the starting blocks, you get disqualified - even if you ‘go’ after the gun sounds! Their testing said that no human could possibly react in less than 100ms, unless they anticipated the signal.

[Dashnine]

Sandpit Steve said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

IIRC the grid sensor is simply an induction loop in the floor that senses movement of the car, it’s a passive system and wouldn’t know when the lights went out.

I guess, in theory, the car could have been set to react to the timing system starting, via some communication mechanism with the pit wall - which would of course have been illegal, so maybe the grid sensor story was a cover for what they were actually up to.

The way I’d have probably done it, is with a high speed camera on the car pointing at the lights themselves, hoping to get a signal to the clutch a few ms ahead of the human driver. Modern LED lights switch off very quickly.

At athletics sprint competitions, there’s a 100ms delay in the system that measures fault starts - if you react to the (audio) start signal in less than 100ms, measured by pressure pads on the starting blocks, you get disqualified - even if you ‘go’ after the gun sounds! Their testing said that no human could possibly react in less than 100ms, unless they anticipated the signal.

Similar in F1, you can still get penalised for a ‘too good’ start even after the lights went out. Same would apply for an automated system. If you could determine the FIA threshold for reaction time and engage the clutch a millisecond later that may work, but it’s currently illegal in terms of driver aids.

[Sandpit Steve]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Doing it with humans wouldn’t work, as it is we have one well-trained human in the car with his finger on the clutch lever. It would need to be some sort of electronic system interpreting either the timing screen feed or the start lights.

It doesn’t help that the start gantry system has a random delay built into the sequence, so the starter himself is doing nothing at the instant the race starts - he’s just standing there with his finger over the abort button, watching the cars and marshals for problems. It would have been much easier in the olden days, when a camera pointed at the starter would show him flicking a switch a couple of tenths before the red lights slowly went out and the green ones slowly came on!

I wouldn’t put it past an F1 team to buy a light gantry system and do some testing on how random are the random delays though, there could well be a sequence to be worked out from the delays seen in the support races and system tests over the course of the weekend. Even telling the driver what length of delay to expect would give him a massive advantage.

[Sandpit Steve]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Interesting. The car in 3rd looks like he went, then lifted off, then went again. The car in 4th went around the same time as the Ferrari ahead of him. The two of them had awesome traction in the first couple of gears though, possibly some sort of (banned at the time?) traction control system rather than a quick-reaction system?

Edited by Sandpit Steve on Tuesday 2nd February 10:16

[kiseca]

Dashnine said:

Sandpit Steve said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

IIRC the grid sensor is simply an induction loop in the floor that senses movement of the car, it’s a passive system and wouldn’t know when the lights went out.

I guess, in theory, the car could have been set to react to the timing system starting, via some communication mechanism with the pit wall - which would of course have been illegal, so maybe the grid sensor story was a cover for what they were actually up to.

The way I’d have probably done it, is with a high speed camera on the car pointing at the lights themselves, hoping to get a signal to the clutch a few ms ahead of the human driver. Modern LED lights switch off very quickly.

At athletics sprint competitions, there’s a 100ms delay in the system that measures fault starts - if you react to the (audio) start signal in less than 100ms, measured by pressure pads on the starting blocks, you get disqualified - even if you ‘go’ after the gun sounds! Their testing said that no human could possibly react in less than 100ms, unless they anticipated the signal.

Similar in F1, you can still get penalised for a ‘too good’ start even after the lights went out. Same would apply for an automated system. If you could determine the FIA threshold for reaction time and engage the clutch a millisecond later that may work, but it’s currently illegal in terms of driver aids.

Is there? I recall Bottas having a superhuman but legal start a couple of seasons ago and when Vettel complained that his reaction time was too fast and that he must have anticipated the lights instead of reacting to them, nothing was done.

[Dashnine]

kiseca said:

Is there? I recall Bottas having a superhuman but legal start a couple of seasons ago and when Vettel complained that his reaction time was too fast and that he must have anticipated the lights instead of reacting to them, nothing was done.

Yup, Google it. Bottas' start provoked a discussion about how accurate the tolerance is on reaction time but they decided he was OK.

[rdjohn]

I think the stewards were right in that instance. There is a huge difference between a once-in-a-lifetime event and something that is repeatable throughout a season.

Fernando always seemed pretty nifty in the Ferrari - a bit too often.

[entropy]

At the time a lot was made of Renault's rear weight distribution

[Gillard36]

How do you feel about refuelling in F1?

I don't think we will ever see it again because cars re fueling is a "bad image" for the environment. I think it is a shame as it takes away so many tactical opportunities.

[exelero]

rdjohn said:

I think the stewards were right in that instance. There is a huge difference between a once-in-a-lifetime event and something that is repeatable throughout a season.

Fernando always seemed pretty nifty in the Ferrari - a bit too often.

Fernando had monster starts in every car not just Ferrari.

Re: Bottas was very lucky when he let the clutch out and the lights went out exactly at the same time

[andburg]

Why do teams use black paint instead of something like vantablack paint in high detail areas to hide aspects of design?

Edited by andburg on Friday 5th February 21:36

[jimPH]

Do you think drivers asking for lots of money could be better spent on the car/team, especially with budget caps coming in. Has your team felt the pinch?

Does anyone miss grid girls?

Have you ever successfully cheated pushed the limit of the regs?

Have you ever been up on the podium to take the team trophy?

Edited by jimPH on Friday 5th February 21:27

[jimPH]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Christ he's boring. Great driver but boring as hell.

Him and Lewis as team mates must have bored Mercedes half to death.

[shirt]

how is your 2021 car coming on? understandably you need to be vague here, so comparing against last years car is fine with me. what sort of % increase are we talking and what do you reckon the split is between powertrain developments and aero?

any interesting developments for 2021 from either your team or others you are aware of, has anyone found a big gain the rest of the teams are scratching their heads about?

have your team started on the 2022 car yet and, if so [i'd hope so!] how far along is it?

[BigBen]

Sandpit Steve said:

IIRC the grid sensor is simply an induction loop in the floor that senses movement of the car, it’s a passive system and wouldn’t know when the lights went out.

The loop will have a frequency passing through it in order to couple with the car and detect it moving. This frequency was switched off when the lights go off and could be detected in the car.

Ben

[Halmyre]

Which brand of chewing gum do drivers prefer?

(asking for a friend)

[Gary C]

Whats the difference between special and general relativity and how does that explain why gravity is so weak ?


Well, you did say ask anything

[Megaflow]

jimPH said:

Do you think drivers asking for lots of money could be better spent on the car/team, especially with budget caps coming in. Has your team felt the pinch?

Does anyone miss grid girls?

Have you ever successfully cheated pushed the limit of the regs?

Have you ever been up on the podium to take the team trophy?

Edited by jimPH on Friday 5th February 21:27

I think you are going to drivers paid more because of the budget cap, and then people like their fitness coaches, race engineers, etc will then be employed by the driver.

[Dashnine]

Megaflow said:

jimPH said:

Do you think drivers asking for lots of money could be better spent on the car/team, especially with budget caps coming in. Has your team felt the pinch?

Does anyone miss grid girls?

Have you ever successfully cheated pushed the limit of the regs?

Have you ever been up on the podium to take the team trophy?

Edited by jimPH on Friday 5th February 21:27

I think you are going to drivers paid more because of the budget cap, and then people like their fitness coaches, race engineers, etc will then be employed by the driver.

My impression (can’t prove it) is that the drivers trainer / coach are already paid by the driver, they’re not formally part of the team.

The race engineer is however very much part of the team, and not part of the drivers ‘entourage’. I can’t see them being paid by the driver, now or in the future.

[Sandpit Steve]

BigBen said:

Sandpit Steve said:

IIRC the grid sensor is simply an induction loop in the floor that senses movement of the car, it’s a passive system and wouldn’t know when the lights went out.

The loop will have a frequency passing through it in order to couple with the car and detect it moving. This frequency was switched off when the lights go off and could be detected in the car.

Ben

Ah okay, I stand corrected. Thanks!