F1/Motorsport

[jpf]

Just read the article about the future of F1. Motorsport expressed the view that the green agenda is going to effect the future of F1 and used this as one of the reasons Lewis Hamilton will hold the record for most F1 race wins for a VERY long time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but fans of F1 want to see the best racing in the world. The engine doesn't dictate fan interest in a race. The racing dictates the fan interest.

I wish F1 would eliminate the tire rules, allow race re-fueling, simplify the engine rules so that engines were affordable to the teams and find a way to make the races unpredictable and therefore more interesting. Too many races are dictated by qualifying on Saturday. The best races are wet races--which happens 2 or 3 times a season. How about one rule...the fuel in your car is what you start the race with? If you go with soft tires and light on fuel to get pole position (how about points for pole) great! If you go heavy and run on hard tires with no pit stops, great!

The engine isn't the problem. The racing and strategy needs to be more dynamic and interesting to the fan.

[TheDeuce]

I think the reason Lewis is very likely to hold the record for a very long time is that:

a) It would take someone new nearly a full decade to beat Lewis, even if their campaigns were as frequently strong as his
b) The stars need to align somewhat, there are factors beyond Lewis or Mercedes own abilities and greatness that has made such a run possible
c) The sport is now more than ever pursuing rapid changes to 'shake things up', making extended periods of dominance at least slightly less likely
d) Cost caps coming in and tightening in both size and breadth of effect mean that deep pockets alone can't enhance some teams dominance indefinitely

The good news (as of today as it happens) is that finally a company has had some real success getting solid state cell wafers to stack to form a solid state cell. They apparently want to get initial units out in to the market by 2025... I would have thought F1 would be a pretty excellent place to show off such an exciting new technology. Such cells could just about power an F1 car for an entire race. Although initially some ICE assistance might still be required.

Just goes to show how different the world could be in a few years time - so I don't personally worry about F1 finding itself 'no longer relevant' anytime soon - so long as the sport is wise and adapts to new technologies. And not just further electrification, there is a lot happening right now to improve road car ICE in various ways that could potentially be applied to F1 to help safe costs and further promote 'green' without diminishing the speed or spectacle.

I'd rate that article as one that looks to the future yet bases all it's conclusions of how that world might play out, on the world as it is today. It doesn't tend to play out like that very often!

[WonkeyDonkey]

Everyone said Schumacher would hold all the records for a very long time.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hamiltons records broken in my lifetime. If Verstappen ever gets in a title contending car then I can't really see anyone on the grid currently or coming through the feeder series ranks who would be able to stop him. He's still only around the age that Hamilton made his debut, yet with multiple race wins already under his belt.

[DanielSan]

Pretty much all the things being said about Hamilton now were said about Schumacher after he'd dominated and broken every record. The records are there to be broken, people didn't think Prost's wins record would be matched at one point and 3 drivers have surpassed his record, 2 of which have completely smashed it.

Dominance isn't a rare thing in F1, regs have been tweaked to make the racing closer etc etc and in every era one or two teams come out on top. The only question for 22 onwards is whether Mercedes can continue or if another team will get the jump on everyone.

[TheDeuce]

WonkeyDonkey said:

Everyone said Schumacher would hold all the records for a very long time.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hamiltons records broken in my lifetime. If Verstappen ever gets in a title contending car then I can't really see anyone on the grid currently or coming through the feeder series ranks who would be able to stop him. He's still only around the age that Hamilton made his debut, yet with multiple race wins already under his belt.

The problem is that if Max did happen to get in to such a car, he would need that car to remain the top car for nearly a decade. That doesn't happen very often and is arguably less likely to happen for as long in the future.

I do agree that it would be plain dumb to claim that Lewis's records will 'never' be beaten (and I recall many did claim that concerning MS at the time..), but it seems to me incredibly unlikely that it will happen even in the next 15-20 years. Quite possibly for far longer.

If Max or whoever were to find themselves in the top car 2022 onwards and spent a few faultless seasons winning titles then that would look very promising, but then come 2025 they will face another shake up in terms of a new PU spec, which is the sort of hurdle that can easily end or at least put on pause a dominant streak for team/driver. I'm a bit of a Lewis fan, a far greater Mercedes fan, but even I will admit that the circumstances that have allowed their continued dominant streak are fairly rare. There is endless talent on display but also there has been some very happy circumstance. Even this season, which allows Lewis to fight for the 8th (record breaking) title, was not expected to be in the same car, it was going to be after the 2021 regs change which could stop Mercedes in their tracks for a while if they misjudge it only slightly. As it is, it seems likely that with essentially the 'same car' as won him number 7, number 8 is now very likely.

So you need endless talent in both driver and team, relatively stable regs and spec along with a little good luck to even get close to his record. it's a big ask!

[thiscocks]

jpf said:

Just read the article about the future of F1. Motorsport expressed the view that the green agenda is going to effect the future of F1 and used this as one of the reasons Lewis Hamilton will hold the record for most F1 race wins for a VERY long time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but fans of F1 want to see the best racing in the world. The engine doesn't dictate fan interest in a race. The racing dictates the fan interest.

I wish F1 would eliminate the tire rules, allow race re-fueling, simplify the engine rules so that engines were affordable to the teams and find a way to make the races unpredictable and therefore more interesting. Too many races are dictated by qualifying on Saturday. The best races are wet races--which happens 2 or 3 times a season. How about one rule...the fuel in your car is what you start the race with? If you go with soft tires and light on fuel to get pole position (how about points for pole) great! If you go heavy and run on hard tires with no pit stops, great!

The engine isn't the problem. The racing and strategy needs to be more dynamic and interesting to the fan.

The green agenda is such a futile concept for motorsports to be following. No one watches motorsports because they want to see a load of eco warrior ste trundling around a track with endless rules to try and make a dull concept interesting. It should be the complete antitheses of what the common man has to consider when buying a new car.

I think the tyre rules are generally ok but it could do with another manufacturer coming in to create some more competition and more variables. It should be allowed to be able to run without stopping though, but could lead to no stop races so would have to be reviewed. The engine rules-relating to the green topic-should be simplified, with no requirement of all the regen motors and electrical crap. Turbos allowed but on 1 litre engines and N/A maximum 3 litre again. Any layout allowed but limited development from first couple of races. Two engines per car allowed per weekend, and T car allowed. 3rd car allowed to start up to 6 races per season but no manufacturer points can be scored by it.

The fuel thing has been done before and doesnt really add any excitement, indeed takes away from it. No one wants to see a car struggling around on full tanks trying to post a quick time. The car should be at its lightest with indipendent set up and tyres just for qualifying. The fastest car and driver combo should be on pole, like currently.

Oh and get rid of DRS

[Bo_apex]

The future needs to be 2 seaters, without crash helmets.

Street circuits only.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSnfPXbfsPw&fe...

[Mellow Yellow]

jpf said:

Just read the article about the future of F1. Motorsport expressed the view that the green agenda is going to effect the future of F1 and used this as one of the reasons Lewis Hamilton will hold the record for most F1 race wins for a VERY long time.

Maybe, maybe not. With sprint races, within a few years we could be looking at a potential 40+ "F1 race wins" up for grabs each season. Purists will look back and say only half of them are "F1 Grand Prix wins" but history has a habit of sweeping those sort of details under the carpet.

[StevieBee]

thiscocks said:

The green agenda is such a futile concept for motorsports to be following.

Thing is, it's not.

This is not a slight against your opinion. But your opinion highlights all that's wrong with the manner in which sustainability is 'marketed' and/or perceived by the masses.

F1 should not only embrace sustainability but is perfectly positioned to be a leader in it - something which it's already doing.

When you think that that within the lifetime of, I would say, over half of the people using Pistonheads, oil will run out, it's clear that a different approach is needed. The idea that to achieve sustainability we must stop enjoying the things we enjoy is false - we just need to do them in a different way. That does not necessarily mean a F1e type thing. It could be the use of biofuels or as yet undiscovered or untapped means of propulsion that offers something even more exciting to watch, smell and hear than petrol being ignited. And F1 is the platform from which this is most likely to emerge.

I love the sound of a DFV and smell of rapidly burnt hydrocarbons as much as the next motor racing fan. But I love motor racing more and would rather it prevail than not and turning its back on the 'green agenda' will only accelerate its demise.

[TheDeuce]

StevieBee said:

thiscocks said:

The green agenda is such a futile concept for motorsports to be following.

Thing is, it's not.

This is not a slight against your opinion. But your opinion highlights all that's wrong with the manner in which sustainability is 'marketed' and/or perceived by the masses.

F1 should not only embrace sustainability but is perfectly positioned to be a leader in it - something which it's already doing.

When you think that that within the lifetime of, I would say, over half of the people using Pistonheads, oil will run out, it's clear that a different approach is needed. The idea that to achieve sustainability we must stop enjoying the things we enjoy is false - we just need to do them in a different way. That does not necessarily mean a F1e type thing. It could be the use of biofuels or as yet undiscovered or untapped means of propulsion that offers something even more exciting to watch, smell and hear than petrol being ignited. And F1 is the platform from which this is most likely to emerge.

I love the sound of a DFV and smell of rapidly burnt hydrocarbons as much as the next motor racing fan. But I love motor racing more and would rather it prevail than not and turning its back on the 'green agenda' will only accelerate its demise.

I've always seen the true 'green' credentials of motorsport, especially F1, as almost irrelevant (other than its ability to set a good example etc). Frankly if 20 cars are to entertain 100m people several times a year, then whatever fuel they munch through hardly matters. In terms of fuel/energy used 'for fun', once divided by the number of people that benefit form that fuel burn by enjoying it on some level, it's probably true that a kid going out for a bike ride purely for their own amusement is responsible for more wasted fuel and Co2 on a per person basis... The likes of stock car and banger racing must be about a million times more wasteful each session than F1 given the tiny audiences that ever get to see the spectacle.

What I DO understand and accept that F1 must chase however, is the constructors. They have to appeal the auto producers that form and sponsor teams, they are the life blood of the sport. If the likes of Renault and Mercedes (both large teams, both PU crucial PU suppliers) are to invest such staggering sums in to an F1 program then clearly the sport has to align with their commercial interests and image. I imagine if every single F1 team said that all their sponsors and investors cared about was engine noise and flames spilling out the back off throttle, F1 would look somewhat different today.

I would argue that the agenda is in fact set by the manufacturers, not F1. At least initially. F1 then has little option but to adapt it's platform to support what the crucial manufacturers say they need it to be. Three of the four current PU suppliers wanted the hybrid program to go ahead when it did, they spent years looking at it in advance and discussing how it could be realised with F1/FIA. As did Porsche, who only dropped out in the end due to a late-ish change on the final spec. Ferrari probably weren't overly keen but they need F1 as much as F1 needs them, so I guess they had to follow the majority desire.

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 23 February 22:34

[Bo_apex]

TheDeuce said:

I would argue that the agenda is in fact set by the manufacturers, not F1. At least initially. F1 then has little option but to adapt it's platform to support what the crucial manufacturers say they need it to be. Three of the four current PU suppliers wanted the hybrid program to go ahead when it did, they spent years looking at it in advance and discussing how it could be realised with F1/FIA. As did Porsche, who only dropped out in the end due to a late-ish change on the final spec. Ferrari probably weren't overly keen but they need F1 as much as F1 needs them, so I guess they had to follow the majority desire.

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 23 February 22:34

Ultimately F1 has allowed it's agenda to be set by governments that coerced the mainstream manufacturers.

Most fans prefer spitting flames and soundtrack. Try removing soundtracks and flames from blockbuster movies.

E-Fuel seems to be the answer.

[GroundZero]

jpf said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but fans of F1 want to see the best racing in the world. The engine doesn't dictate fan interest in a race. The racing dictates the fan interest.

I would disagree (from my perspective as a long time F1/motorsport fan up until recent years).
The engine is a core element of what is being raced. The combination of what the drivers are in control of versus the effects and competition of the resultant racing is a core element.
The V12 and V10 era gave a fantastic event for fans to experience, the sound, the volume, the shaking of the ground and the characteristics that each engine type gives to the arsenal of driver techniques that add to the racing is what made F1 what it is and what gathered in huge fan base.
It also allowed certain driver to turn themselves in to 'heros' and 'villans' of the sport which brought in the drama and the driver characters that many became fans of.

So although you say the racing dictates fan interest, that is only partially correct, because the "racing" in F1 is much more than just one car brand with a driver competing against another.

jpf said:

I wish F1 would eliminate the tire rules, allow race re-fueling, simplify the engine rules so that engines were affordable to the teams and find a way to make the races unpredictable and therefore more interesting. Too many races are dictated by qualifying on Saturday. The best races are wet races--which happens 2 or 3 times a season. How about one rule...the fuel in your car is what you start the race with? If you go with soft tires and light on fuel to get pole position (how about points for pole) great! If you go heavy and run on hard tires with no pit stops, great!

The engine isn't the problem. The racing and strategy needs to be more dynamic and interesting to the fan.

I agree here that F1 has far too many rules (the more rules there are it favours the teams with higher budgets on the main), and one of my problems (which is why I've turned off from F1 for the past 5 or so years) is that it is pandering to the tree huggers and looking to promote itself as a 'green enterprise'. This is destroying the sport IMO.

The size of the cars are also absurdly hideously oversized and the amount of aero allowed combines in to this to make the whole sport look "robitic" on the main, where every car/driver is more or less doing the same thing and overtaking becomes limited, or you have a mind-set like verstappen where you say "I'm going to create a potential crash, so let me past or we're both out of the race".

The F1 cars have also become far too "easy" to drive. ("easy" quote marked for obvious reasons ) , allowing relatively inexperienced/unproven youngsters to enter the fray, in a way lowering the level of competition to what would be seen in 'lower' formula levels.
I've always thought that in order to make it to F1 there should be a good amount of proving yourself in the lower formulas - preventing silver spoon drivers to jump up the ladder in relatively inexperienced positions.
A minimum entry age of 22 would be a good start. Meaning that the lower formula levels can see a maturing of racing and also F1 can see a maturing of racing.

Any way, I've ranted along way too much already, with numerous problems the sport has at the moment, and mostly why I've tuned out of F1 for a good number of years now. Just can't see any reason to continue to watch a sport that I used to love be dragged down in to irrelevance due to pointless green pressures and pointless changes that make the racing robitic, ending up with a one car race winner in just about every race.

[WantSagaris]

thiscocks said:

The green agenda is such a futile concept for motorsports to be following. No one watches motorsports because they want to see a load of eco warrior ste trundling around a track with endless rules to try and make a dull concept interesting. It should be the complete antitheses of what the common man has to consider when buying a new car.

The green agenda is needed to attract investment. Car manufacturers don't want to invest in dated technology, one reason Honda pulled out.

[coppice]

Yes , well... the rot set in when manufacturers tail were allowed to wag the F1 dog ...

[Oilchange]

We have rather a lot of arable land sitting idle, the US really does have a lot!

Can't we make green, sustainable alcohol type fuels from fermented high calory crops?

A lot cleaner than crude oil fuels and we'd not rely on batteries dug out of the ground polluting the land...

It would remove our reliance on foreign oil exporters and might even stop us going to war on the odd occasion...

[StevieBee]

Oilchange said:

We have rather a lot of arable land sitting idle, the US really does have a lot!

Can't we make green, sustainable alcohol type fuels from fermented high calory crops?

A lot cleaner than crude oil fuels and we'd not rely on batteries dug out of the ground polluting the land...

It would remove our reliance on foreign oil exporters and might even stop us going to war on the odd occasion...

Indy car have been doing that for decades.

But rightly or wrongly, F1's direction is led by manufacturer objectives. Biofuels have a place but there is insufficient land available on all earth to grow the crops to the quantity needed to replace current fuel consumption outside of motorsport - and leave enough to grow the crops we need to eat. One of the ironies of climate change is that its consequence could ultimately turn current arid, dessert into arable land and thus open up the opportunity to widen the use of bio fuel.

That said, I do foresee Formula E becoming the principal 'eco' series in the future with F1 reverting to high-tech, ICE powered using home-grown bio fuel. I'd be happy with that!

[angrymoby]

TheDeuce said:

The problem is that if Max did happen to get in to such a car, he would need that car to remain the top car for nearly a decade. That doesn't happen very often and is arguably less likely to happen for as long in the future.

some numbers for perspective:

Schumacher- 17 seasons, 7 WDC's ...so 40% of F1 championships he entered he won
Hamilton - 13 seasons, 7 WDC's ...54%

If he wins this season, that percentage starts to get near 60%

not to diminish Max's ability but imo that's a mighty big task for him (or indeed anyone)

[Fundoreen]

Max, who is a lot more agreeable than he used to be has been around for quite a while now. He will probably win a few titles but by then new young drivers will be along.
Next years cars could turn the world upside down. Maybe Ocon,Russell and Leclerc will be winning everything or a returning Albon.
Max is just the guy in the team sweating blood to get closest to the mercedes car and its mastery of the stupidly compex formula that was created
by various idiots in the FIA and F1.

[Oilchange]

Don't like Verstappen, never warmed to him, reminds me of Vettel . Hope he never wins a title and gets trounced by Russell or another equally quick driver. Would like to see how reacts to getting his ass whipped again and again.

[coppice]

You could try just judging drivers on what they achieve on track? Obviously, a driver's personal foibles might influence a judgement of the person - but that shouldn't really colour a judgment on his ability as a driver.

Judge the art, not the artist...