Exceeded track limits.

Exceeded track limits.

Author
Discussion

Drawweight

Original Poster:

1,438 posts

80 months

Monday 29th March
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With the controversy surrounding the last race is it now time to tighten up the regulations?

The farce of on some corners at some times it’s okay to go completely off the track intentionally without a penalty is confusing to the drivers and fans.

The limits should be enforced as strictly as in the motorbike world and on every corner.

Do it 3 times you get a warning. 5 times the penalty is a long lap and if it’s on the last lap it’s an automatic penalty.

It would work because it’s unambiguous. 4 wheels off the track and it’s noted.

First couple of drivers to get penalties and I bet that’s the exceeding track limits problem solved.

Kraken

1,645 posts

164 months

Monday 29th March
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I really don't know why F1 makes such a meal of track limits. It's so simple to police. The track is clearly defined by kerbs and lines. All this "gaining an advantage" bks is meaningless.

WickerBill

784 posts

12 months

Monday 29th March
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It’s not time to tighten up the regulations, it’s time to have CONSISTENT regulations.

During the race, drivers were allowed to run wide at T4 as shown in the pre race notes and various interviews, all Lewis and other drivers were doing is driving to the regulations.

What baffles me is why the FIA changed the rules between practice and the race, the. Went back on it mid race.

It really should be as simple as stick between the white lines, if you introduce fuzziness in the rules, drivers will take advantage.

Sandpit Steve

2,652 posts

38 months

Monday 29th March
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The best way to do it is with physical barriers. If going wide left you running over a sausage kerb, a slab of wet astroturf, a gravel trap, or three lines of Armco, no-one would ever be out there.

Yes, I know, motorbikes don’t like the physical barriers, so the FIA needs to find a standard for temporary physical means of enforcement.

Alternatively, use electronic monitoring with no exceptions - B&W flag for the first offence, then penalties for not lifting though the timing sector if they run wide.

If they want to be really computer-gamey, than an ERS derate for a few seconds, triggered by a loop in the track is technically possible.

heebeegeetee

27,129 posts

212 months

Monday 29th March
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WickerBill said:
It’s not time to tighten up the regulations, it’s time to have CONSISTENT regulations.
Or even just use their own set of rules that they wrote themselves? Why not? Is there a rule about track limits or not? Are the drivers to race on the track or not? The rules seem clear enough to me, why on earth introduce any ambiguity?

Drivers shouldn't be using more than the race track. If they leave the circuit they must show that they have slowed to rejoin safely.


Wills2

17,847 posts

139 months

Monday 29th March
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I'm not sure what the controversy is, you cannot overtake another car by going off the race track it's really simple, Verstappen has form for doing this but each time the outcome is the same.




AllyBassman

694 posts

76 months

Monday 29th March
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Wills2 said:
I'm not sure what the controversy is, you cannot overtake another car by going off the race track it's really simple, Verstappen has form for doing this but each time the outcome is the same.
But it's not just about the overtake is it?

Drivers were leaving the track at T4 to gain an advantage (otherwise they would not be doing it) Hamilton left the track at T4 30 odd times during the race, Max had to be told by the team to do the same not lose out. The FIA then clampled down during the race and told them not to.

Technically he was ahead going into T4 but ran wide like most were doing throughout the race to finish the pass. So I can see it from both sides and why there is controversy around it.

Kraken

1,645 posts

164 months

Monday 29th March
quotequote all
Wills2 said:
I'm not sure what the controversy is, you cannot overtake another car by going off the race track it's really simple, Verstappen has form for doing this but each time the outcome is the same.
The controversy is that the FIA disallowed lap times in quali for going off track at turn 4 but for the race they said track limits wouldn't be applied at that corner and then changed their mind halfway through the race. The overtake is just another part of that. At the beginning of the race it would have been arguably legal (in the circumstances of the FIA saying there were no limits at that corner) but at the end it wasn't.

It's the whole "gaining an advantage" caveat that the FIA put in the notes that needs to be dropped. You're either on the track or off the track. The only reason Hamilton went wide there for 30 odd laps was because it was an advantage but they didn't apply that part of it then.

Edited by Kraken on Monday 29th March 09:24

RB Will

6,931 posts

204 months

Monday 29th March
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It really should be applied in all circumstances not just for overtaking.

Is there a penalty for holding an advantage by going off? if not why is it not equivalent to the gaining an advantage? for example Hamilton running wide this weekend and although it lost him some time to Max, if there were a chunky kerb, grass, gravel etc on the exit that had to be negotiated then Max probably would have been through. Surely if you are fighting for position / under pressure defending and cock up and go off you should have to concede the place?

Another similar incident I recall from a few years back was Hamilton just pointing it across the run off and pinning it rather than trying to stay on the track at T1 in Mexico and went from being wheel to wheel and about to drop a few places to being seconds in the lead. He didnt technically lose or a gain a place but got himself a hell of a gap.


//j17

3,679 posts

187 months

Monday 29th March
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WickerBill said:
It’s not time to tighten up the regulations, it’s time to have CONSISTENT regulations.

During the race, drivers were allowed to run wide at T4 as shown in the pre race notes and various interviews, all Lewis and other drivers were doing is driving to the regulations.

What baffles me is why the FIA changed the rules between practice and the race, the. Went back on it mid race.
From what I've seen the clark of the course DIDN'T issue different information between practice/qualification/race, just issued a clarification before practice (that was still in effect for the race), in addition to the standard sporting regulations.

The sporting regs. state you can't leave the track and gain a lasting advantage. So you can accidentally run wide/take avoiding action and run wide/etc you don't face a sanction but if you do it too far/too often or say end up ahead of a car you were previously behind as a result you have to 'make amends'.

The clarification was "A lap time achieved during any practice session or the race by leaving the track on the exit of Turn 4, will result in that lap time being invalidated by the stewards.". Now clearly during qualifying that basically mean EVERY lap will face this penalty, simple because in qualifying every lap you're trying to set the fastest possible lap. In the race it only really applied to the point for fastest lap. Had Bottas run wide on his last lap dash the lap would have stood in his race distance count but the time would have been struck and he wouldn't have got the point for lastest lap, that going back to (I think) Verstappen.

WickerBill said:
It really should be as simple as stick between the white lines, if you introduce fuzziness in the rules, drivers will take advantage.
IS it that simple though?

During the race we had I think Norris trying to take Leclerc around the outside but Leclerc holding the racing line and Norris getting forced off track. Should Norris have recieved a penalty for that (and so basically stopping anyone ever going for a "hell Mary" around the outside overtake ever again in F1), or should Leclerc have left him room (which, as that event was checked and found to be fine would be a change to another rule and basically mean there's no point defending the inside of the corner, just stick wide and watch the car trying to overtake on the inside have to brake because they aren't quite past before the apex so have to slow down to leave you room.

Or if a driver happened to find themselves behind Mazaspin and had to take avoiding action to prevent a crash should they get a penalty?

Or we just stop using purpose built circuits and switch everything to dull as dishwater street circuits of course, where you have physical track limits.

RB Will

6,931 posts

204 months

Monday 29th March
quotequote all
//j17 said:
IS it that simple though?

During the race we had I think Norris trying to take Leclerc around the outside but Leclerc holding the racing line and Norris getting forced off track.
That is a whole other bee in my bonnet. I hate the inside driver just letting the car run out and force the overtaker off. if there is a penalty for forcing someone off the track on the straights it should apply to corners too

Boom78

245 posts

12 months

Monday 29th March
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RB Will said:
That is a whole other bee in my bonnet. I hate the inside driver just letting the car run out and force the overtaker off. if there is a penalty for forcing someone off the track on the straights it should apply to corners too
Very different thing, on the corners the lead driver has the right to the racing line, they can take it and close off if they choose, the overtaker needs to consider this when making a move and to ensure they get their wheels ahead. On the straights there are rules over how many blocks (adjustments) you can do, again, if it’s very tight the back car should back out and/or try a different line, you can’t bully you’re way through as it’s dangerous

StevieBee

9,574 posts

219 months

Monday 29th March
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Boom78 said:
RB Will said:
That is a whole other bee in my bonnet. I hate the inside driver just letting the car run out and force the overtaker off. if there is a penalty for forcing someone off the track on the straights it should apply to corners too
Very different thing, on the corners the lead driver has the right to the racing line, they can take it and close off if they choose, the overtaker needs to consider this when making a move and to ensure they get their wheels ahead. On the straights there are rules over how many blocks (adjustments) you can do, again, if it’s very tight the back car should back out and/or try a different line, you can’t bully you’re way through as it’s dangerous
I think it also comes down to the lack of options for the driver being overtaken. If a car dives down the inside, the driver on the outside has the option of not turning in on them and still making the corner but for an outside overtake, he will have already committed to the line and there's not always the option of turning more to afford the other driver the room. And in anycase, why would they? Racing is supposed to be difficult.

An outside overtake is difficult to pull off but a beautiful thing to behold when it goes right.



Wills2

17,847 posts

139 months

Monday 29th March
quotequote all
Kraken said:
Wills2 said:
I'm not sure what the controversy is, you cannot overtake another car by going off the race track it's really simple, Verstappen has form for doing this but each time the outcome is the same.
The controversy is that the FIA disallowed lap times in quali for going off track at turn 4 but for the race they said track limits wouldn't be applied at that corner and then changed their mind halfway through the race. The overtake is just another part of that. At the beginning of the race it would have been arguably legal (in the circumstances of the FIA saying there were no limits at that corner) but at the end it wasn't.

It's the whole "gaining an advantage" caveat that the FIA put in the notes that needs to be dropped. You're either on the track or off the track. The only reason Hamilton went wide there for 30 odd laps was because it was an advantage but they didn't apply that part of it then.

Edited by Kraken on Monday 29th March 09:24
No I think you're reading too much into what they said, track limits always apply to an overtake Verstappen having to give the place back had nothing to do with the track limits set for qualifying or that they allowed cars to breach those track limits during the race (whilst not gaining a lasting advantage)

Had Lewis been overtaking cars whilst going off in turn 4 he'd have had the same rule applied to him.



LM240

3,518 posts

182 months

Monday 29th March
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Posted this in GP thread, then saw this topic also. This would be my twist.

With the tech surrounding F1 it surely wouldn’t be beyond them to have sensors fitted to a part of the car which picks up if you go beyond track limits.

My idea would be to have a mode that then stops you activating the hybrid power.

You have three infractions for example and it kicks in and you lose the extra electric power for 1 lap as you next pass the start line.

You could also include running off the track, whereas in the old days you’d be in the gravel and either out or severely delayed, for this sort of mistake you get zero extra electric power for 30 seconds.

Spices up things if you push too hard for track limits and also penalises mistakes. All of a sudden you get rewards for those drivers who keep it neat and error free.

Kraken

1,645 posts

164 months

Monday 29th March
quotequote all
Wills2 said:
No I think you're reading too much into what they said, track limits always apply to an overtake Verstappen having to give the place back had nothing to do with the track limits set for qualifying or that they allowed cars to breach those track limits during the race (whilst not gaining a lasting advantage)

Had Lewis been overtaking cars whilst going off in turn 4 he'd have had the same rule applied to him.

Why have the distinction at all though? That's the farcical thing about the way F1 handles track limits. It's either the track or it's not regardless of whether you're on your own or overtaking. In the UK we race with far stricter track limits than the FIA stipulates and it's policed with series that have a tiny fraction of the money and personnel that F1 does. All I can think is that F1 enjoys stirring the pot as they could solve the issue overnight if the really wanted to.

patmahe

5,369 posts

168 months

Tuesday 30th March
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Every corner, every lap, every circuit, the white lines define the limit. I don't see why it can't be that simple, the lack of consistency is crazy.

RB Will

6,931 posts

204 months

Tuesday 30th March
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Just seen a video by another racer showing Hamilton well over white line and rumble strip 29 times in the race apparently adding up to 5.8 seconds gained. Dunno how many times Max did it

Kawasicki

9,007 posts

199 months

Tuesday 30th March
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patmahe said:
Every corner, every lap, every circuit, the white lines define the limit. I don't see why it can't be that simple, the lack of consistency is crazy.
Most successful racers have learned to completely take the piss until they are penalised for it. It goes right back to grass-roots motorsport.

RB Will

6,931 posts

204 months

Tuesday 30th March
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
patmahe said:
Every corner, every lap, every circuit, the white lines define the limit. I don't see why it can't be that simple, the lack of consistency is crazy.
Most successful racers have learned to completely take the piss until they are penalised for it. It goes right back to grass-roots motorsport.
I learned that one in karting. Me as an amateur chasing a pro, just about hanging on to him for a while then someone else crashed bringing out out full yellows. I slowed as instructed and he carried on at near full pace only slowing for the accident site. He pulled about half a lap on me and I never got near him again.
From that day on I have been using his tactics.

I dont agree with doing stuff like this at all but if you dont you get beat by the people who do.