The case for a 'League' 2 F1
Discussion
For the purpose of discussion.....
In almost all the mainstream sports I can think of, the worst performing team of the season drops out of the higher league into the one below, while the highest performing teams of that league ascend to the one above.
As things stand, that's not really possible because operationally and technically there is a chasm between F1 and F2, principally because F2 teams aren't manufacturers as such.
Is there a case for a lower-league F1 championship? - One that sits in between F1 and F2. Something like F1b and F1a.
The same rules and ethos would apply but perhaps with stock wings, single tyres, shorter races. Teams would still need to design and build their own cars. A lower cost of entry would give aspiring teams the opportunity to start up and rise up. Only drivers finishing in the top 5 or 6 of F1b would be able to race in F1a so ensuring the best of the best race in the best.
F2 did used to be a manufacturer series (or more than it is today) with F2 cars often competing in F1 races, so it's not an entirely new idea.
Just a thought!
In almost all the mainstream sports I can think of, the worst performing team of the season drops out of the higher league into the one below, while the highest performing teams of that league ascend to the one above.
As things stand, that's not really possible because operationally and technically there is a chasm between F1 and F2, principally because F2 teams aren't manufacturers as such.
Is there a case for a lower-league F1 championship? - One that sits in between F1 and F2. Something like F1b and F1a.
The same rules and ethos would apply but perhaps with stock wings, single tyres, shorter races. Teams would still need to design and build their own cars. A lower cost of entry would give aspiring teams the opportunity to start up and rise up. Only drivers finishing in the top 5 or 6 of F1b would be able to race in F1a so ensuring the best of the best race in the best.
F2 did used to be a manufacturer series (or more than it is today) with F2 cars often competing in F1 races, so it's not an entirely new idea.
Just a thought!
StevieBee said:
For the purpose of discussion.....
In almost all the mainstream sports I can think of, the worst performing team of the season drops out of the higher league into the one below, while the highest performing teams of that league ascend to the one above.
As things stand, that's not really possible because operationally and technically there is a chasm between F1 and F2, principally because F2 teams aren't manufacturers as such.
Is there a case for a lower-league F1 championship? - One that sits in between F1 and F2. Something like F1b and F1a.
The same rules and ethos would apply but perhaps with stock wings, single tyres, shorter races. Teams would still need to design and build their own cars. A lower cost of entry would give aspiring teams the opportunity to start up and rise up. Only drivers finishing in the top 5 or 6 of F1b would be able to race in F1a so ensuring the best of the best race in the best.
F2 did used to be a manufacturer series (or more than it is today) with F2 cars often competing in F1 races, so it's not an entirely new idea.
Just a thought!
All very well and good if we have a queue of teams wanting to get into F1 - cycle the worst ones out each year.In almost all the mainstream sports I can think of, the worst performing team of the season drops out of the higher league into the one below, while the highest performing teams of that league ascend to the one above.
As things stand, that's not really possible because operationally and technically there is a chasm between F1 and F2, principally because F2 teams aren't manufacturers as such.
Is there a case for a lower-league F1 championship? - One that sits in between F1 and F2. Something like F1b and F1a.
The same rules and ethos would apply but perhaps with stock wings, single tyres, shorter races. Teams would still need to design and build their own cars. A lower cost of entry would give aspiring teams the opportunity to start up and rise up. Only drivers finishing in the top 5 or 6 of F1b would be able to race in F1a so ensuring the best of the best race in the best.
F2 did used to be a manufacturer series (or more than it is today) with F2 cars often competing in F1 races, so it's not an entirely new idea.
Just a thought!
However, the grid isn’t even full. You don’t get into F1 on merit, like in football, you get there based on financial power.
We already have three tiers of F1 pretty much, it's just that they all race on the same circuit at the same time.
We have the top teams, then we have the midfield battling for whatever position is 'top' behind what the actual top cars are fighting for. Then we have Williams and Haas fighting for the "least s
te" award.
It really is a three tier championship already. The midfield teams target best of midfield, that for them and their sponsors is 'winning'. Williams will genuinely be jumping up and down celebrating if they get a couple of points and finally beat Haas.
Every single race, we get to see three distinct leagues of F1 at work.
We have the top teams, then we have the midfield battling for whatever position is 'top' behind what the actual top cars are fighting for. Then we have Williams and Haas fighting for the "least s
te" award.It really is a three tier championship already. The midfield teams target best of midfield, that for them and their sponsors is 'winning'. Williams will genuinely be jumping up and down celebrating if they get a couple of points and finally beat Haas.
Every single race, we get to see three distinct leagues of F1 at work.
While I can see the argument, I don't think it's something that would really be practical without going to more of a spec series right through to the "full fat" F1.
The other way could be having cars frozen longer in terms of spec/ performance and allowing teams to buy/ sell chassis.
Similar to sportscars where there are manufacturer teams and independents, could it give more opportunity to have different/ regional championships?
The other way could be having cars frozen longer in terms of spec/ performance and allowing teams to buy/ sell chassis.
Similar to sportscars where there are manufacturer teams and independents, could it give more opportunity to have different/ regional championships?
The only way I could see this happening if a league 2 team could buy last year’s car of another team, but a) that would be outside the spirit of teams being constructors and b) Mercedes are unlikely to ever want anyone (say Ferrari) to be able to pick up their old chassis and build that tech into a new car.
sticks090460 said:
The only way I could see this happening if a league 2 team could buy last year’s car of another team, but a) that would be outside the spirit of teams being constructors and b) Mercedes are unlikely to ever want anyone (say Ferrari) to be able to pick up their old chassis and build that tech into a new car.
Also Ferrari and the others aren't going to want some F2 team to come along and just buy last year's Mercedes to beat them with.thegreenhell said:
sticks090460 said:
The only way I could see this happening if a league 2 team could buy last year’s car of another team, but a) that would be outside the spirit of teams being constructors and b) Mercedes are unlikely to ever want anyone (say Ferrari) to be able to pick up their old chassis and build that tech into a new car.
Also Ferrari and the others aren't going to want some F2 team to come along and just buy last year's Mercedes to beat them with.
There is a sort of precedent - although it didn’t involve promotion/relegation.
Back in 1987 there was a developing yawning gap between the F1 turbos and their normally aspirated counterparts. So along came a secondary championship - the Jim Clark Trophy for drivers and the Chapman Trophy for constructors.
It wasn’t popular and lasted one season only. Naming a lower league drivers’ championship after one of the all time greats was never going to be a good start...
Back in 1987 there was a developing yawning gap between the F1 turbos and their normally aspirated counterparts. So along came a secondary championship - the Jim Clark Trophy for drivers and the Chapman Trophy for constructors.
It wasn’t popular and lasted one season only. Naming a lower league drivers’ championship after one of the all time greats was never going to be a good start...
Can't think of any racing category that operates promotion and relegation but then again pre-qualifying and the limited number of race starters operated as such.
It's pretty much a franchise system now in F1. The F1 paddock doesn't want more new teams. 10 seems to be the ideal number. The current teams only want to look after themselves or side with their benefactors, some have benefited from years of investment from the financial glory days of TV money and tobacco sponsorship. More teams will mean a smaller cut of the TV and prize money.
Over a decade ago Max Mosely wanted to bring in budgets caps with less stringent tech regs - a separate class within F1 - but most of the teams via FOTA (Formula One Teams Association) were against this and it was this premise that the then new teams of Caterham, HRT, Virgin, USF1 were sold on.
Williams, for instance, were inherently against customer cars - even though we more or less have that now with (T)Racing Point/Aston Martin, Haas; copy and paste via DSLR or extra pairs of hands from Maranello.
I don't see the point of a separate league/championship/category for teams interested in F1. What feeder series has teams building their own cars? Who is going to drive or invest in it? Might as well allow a sub class in F1 akin to Open Class in MotoGP and that has allowed it now to become more sportingly equitable - Suzuki winning the Rider's Championship, KTM becoming race winners.
The upcoming new tech regs and budget cap are solely there to benefit and protect the current teams. For all their squabbling and delusions, F1 has come to realise that F1 will never be like it ever was financially pre-2008.
It's pretty much a franchise system now in F1. The F1 paddock doesn't want more new teams. 10 seems to be the ideal number. The current teams only want to look after themselves or side with their benefactors, some have benefited from years of investment from the financial glory days of TV money and tobacco sponsorship. More teams will mean a smaller cut of the TV and prize money.
Over a decade ago Max Mosely wanted to bring in budgets caps with less stringent tech regs - a separate class within F1 - but most of the teams via FOTA (Formula One Teams Association) were against this and it was this premise that the then new teams of Caterham, HRT, Virgin, USF1 were sold on.
Williams, for instance, were inherently against customer cars - even though we more or less have that now with (T)Racing Point/Aston Martin, Haas; copy and paste via DSLR or extra pairs of hands from Maranello.
I don't see the point of a separate league/championship/category for teams interested in F1. What feeder series has teams building their own cars? Who is going to drive or invest in it? Might as well allow a sub class in F1 akin to Open Class in MotoGP and that has allowed it now to become more sportingly equitable - Suzuki winning the Rider's Championship, KTM becoming race winners.
The upcoming new tech regs and budget cap are solely there to benefit and protect the current teams. For all their squabbling and delusions, F1 has come to realise that F1 will never be like it ever was financially pre-2008.
Probably feasible if we were still in the position of requiring pre-qualifying etc, but keeping the grid 'topped up' is a near impossible task now and that's unlikely to change unless F1 moves to a cheaper spec series.
If we had 8 new teams wanting to suddenly join somehow, but to save teams the financial despair of being sent home after pre-qualifying, I'd have the following format:
FRIDAY:
- Longer FP1 and FP2 to reduce congestion
SATURDAY:
- FP3 Qualifying, top 16 cars automatically proceed to the main 'feature race'
- Sprint race for remaining cars, top 4 get a slot in the Sunday feature race
SUNDAY
- Usual feature race with 20 cars
The problem, as ever, would be politics. If Ferrari (for example) had a bad FP3 Quali, there is no way the sport would allow itself to run a race event without them. FP3 would probably need a bit of work to ensure 36 cars aren't tripping each other up to record a qualifying time, but I'm sure an interesting system could be developed.
If we had 8 new teams wanting to suddenly join somehow, but to save teams the financial despair of being sent home after pre-qualifying, I'd have the following format:
FRIDAY:
- Longer FP1 and FP2 to reduce congestion
SATURDAY:
- FP3 Qualifying, top 16 cars automatically proceed to the main 'feature race'
- Sprint race for remaining cars, top 4 get a slot in the Sunday feature race
SUNDAY
- Usual feature race with 20 cars
The problem, as ever, would be politics. If Ferrari (for example) had a bad FP3 Quali, there is no way the sport would allow itself to run a race event without them. FP3 would probably need a bit of work to ensure 36 cars aren't tripping each other up to record a qualifying time, but I'm sure an interesting system could be developed.
Edited by ch37 on Wednesday 7th April 10:00
Reading this thread made me think that it I remembered the two-tier F1 Championship back in the 90s. Briefly checking it up online, it was further back than I thought - 1987 and 1988. Maybe it wasn't official, but it did happen.
I suppose the idea back in the day was to stop the 'grenade engines' that went like stink until they consumed themselves. I remember the Turbo era atrician rate being over 50% lots of the time. I'm waffling and remeniscing about the 1980s so I'll stop now.
I suppose the idea back in the day was to stop the 'grenade engines' that went like stink until they consumed themselves. I remember the Turbo era atrician rate being over 50% lots of the time. I'm waffling and remeniscing about the 1980s so I'll stop now.
moffspeed said:
Europa - see 5 posts up, it did happen as you say.
As an aside I’m glad that logical F1-F2-F3 nomenclature has been re-established.
Bets are off as to whether any future F1 driver will be able to bypass F2, I think the Superlicence system now effectively maps out your progression.
Yes, they’ve again re-jigged the super licence points in favour of F2. You need to be right at the top of any other series, often over multiple seasons, to get the requisite 40 points. As an aside I’m glad that logical F1-F2-F3 nomenclature has been re-established.
Bets are off as to whether any future F1 driver will be able to bypass F2, I think the Superlicence system now effectively maps out your progression.
StevieBee said:
For the purpose of discussion.....
F2 did used to be a manufacturer series (or more than it is today) with F2 cars often competing in F1 races, so it's not an entirely new idea.
Just a thought!
Not really , if by manufacturer we mean road car firms going racing. Toes were dipped in the 60s , 70sn and 80s , especially by Ferrari (then a tiny road car firm ) in the 60s and Ford (ie Cosworth ) , Honda and BMW were engine suppliers.. But what made F2 brilliant was that unlike nearly every current single seater formula , there was no spec chassis - so in some seasons you might have a dozen different chassis. F2 did used to be a manufacturer series (or more than it is today) with F2 cars often competing in F1 races, so it's not an entirely new idea.
Just a thought!
I would love to see a return to a European F2 championship , as a stand alone series, and not as the support band for F1 . Back in the day I saw contemporary F2 at Oulton, Mallory and Donington and it was bloody brilliant . We get very , very few chances now to see modern top level single seaters racing live in the UK - we don't even have a proper F3 series (once the third or fourth most important single seaters series in the world) .
Edited by coppice on Wednesday 14th April 17:43
Europa Jon said:
Reading this thread made me think that it I remembered the two-tier F1 Championship back in the 90s. Briefly checking it up online, it was further back than I thought - 1987 and 1988. Maybe it wasn't official, but it did happen.
You sure? I don't remember that at all.Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff