Ayrton Senna

Ayrton Senna

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Discussion

Gary C

7,762 posts

144 months

Tuesday
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Crafty_ said:
Out of interest do you have any references to articles/books etc that takes this viewpoint ? its not one I've ever heard.
I thought every book referenced the hate for JMB

He probably even hated himself.

Crafty_

12,802 posts

165 months

Tuesday
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Oh I know he wasn't popular, but my understanding was that he was always a bit.. patriotic ? I've not seen it said he and Prost disliked each other..

..Either way, doesn't change much about the incident I mentioned, Senna thought he'd been wronged and decided to stand up for himself (rightly or wrongly).


ELUSIVEJIM

Original Poster:

8,111 posts

116 months

Tuesday
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Eric Mc said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
It's nothing to do with Senna and "God-like qualities" it's the fact a driver was negotiating a curve that he was about to exit yet went straight on.

Everyone knew the risks at Tamburello and the last thing you wanted to happen was to have a mechanical issue. As drivers have stated it was a fast curve, not a corner.

The one car on the grid that had a very poor steering column adjustment is the one that goes straight on killing the driver. Newey himself stated it was not IF but WHEN the column broke but then says it wasn't the column.

Make of it what you like as we all have different opinions.

Thankfully in the end the Court came to the correct verdict.
Thankfully?

What is there to give thanks for?
The truth finally disclosed but conveniently it was too late.

DeejRC

2,020 posts

47 months

Tuesday
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Crafty_ said:
Oh I know he wasn't popular, but my understanding was that he was always a bit.. patriotic ? I've not seen it said he and Prost disliked each other..

..Either way, doesn't change much about the incident I mentioned, Senna thought he'd been wronged and decided to stand up for himself (rightly or wrongly).
Senna always thought he was wronged if a decision went against him smile Senna had a fairly large petulant streak. On one hand it was his sense of entitlement as the chosen one, his destiny! On the other, it was his obsession with needing to beat Prost, as only by doing that could he claim his destiny, could he justify himself. To himself and to God.

As to references to writing...how much access do you have to Roebuck and Henry?
This notion of JMB and and Prost in cahoots has only really become popular since that bloody film came out.

Eric Mc

115,007 posts

230 months

Tuesday
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A very good description of "that film".

"Hagiography" is the word I use when describing it.

entropy

4,135 posts

168 months

Wednesday
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DeejRC said:
Crafty_ said:
Oh I know he wasn't popular, but my understanding was that he was always a bit.. patriotic ? I've not seen it said he and Prost disliked each other..

..Either way, doesn't change much about the incident I mentioned, Senna thought he'd been wronged and decided to stand up for himself (rightly or wrongly).
Senna always thought he was wronged if a decision went against him smile Senna had a fairly large petulant streak. On one hand it was his sense of entitlement as the chosen one, his destiny! On the other, it was his obsession with needing to beat Prost, as only by doing that could he claim his destiny, could he justify himself. To himself and to God.

As to references to writing...how much access do you have to Roebuck and Henry?
This notion of JMB and and Prost in cahoots has only really become popular since that bloody film came out.
Prost has said before he didn't like JMB.

For sure Prost was making his case in the meeting room in Suzuka '89 but I think it was more of a case of JMB would rather Prost win as the lesser of the two evils than let a coin toss decide the WDC knowing neither driver liked him.

Crafty_

12,802 posts

165 months

Wednesday
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DeejRC said:
Senna always thought he was wronged if a decision went against him smile Senna had a fairly large petulant streak. On one hand it was his sense of entitlement as the chosen one, his destiny! On the other, it was his obsession with needing to beat Prost, as only by doing that could he claim his destiny, could he justify himself. To himself and to God.

As to references to writing...how much access do you have to Roebuck and Henry?
This notion of JMB and and Prost in cahoots has only really become popular since that bloody film came out.
I've had that understanding since before "that bloody film".

Of course Senna was petulant, he was a racing driver, they all are to some degree! but yes Senna did feel he had to prove himself, I've always wondered if that was simply because he was told he was the best over and over.

I think he had a right to be annoyed at all the messing about with the grid, but didn't really warrant his actions - if anyone did it now they'd be banned I should think.

Eric Mc

115,007 posts

230 months

Wednesday
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He was a very strange man - wonderfully compassionate away from motor racing but grew a massive pair of horns when in the car.

I think he was a very intense person. Everything he did he pursued to an intense degree. Too intense - in my opinion.

LukeBrown66

704 posts

11 months

Wednesday
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Far too intense and he also ushered in a new way of driving famously referenced by Brunders in that he made YOU decide if you were going to have an accident, something which I find abhorrent and should have been left in karting or FF1600.

I have been watching a lot of this era recently on catchup and often Senna was blindingly fast but fell back, not always but a fair bit, especially for Lotus. Prost on the other hand often started slowly, and battled his way through the field, his ability to set a car up was second to none even now. And some of the passes he made were so true, clean and perfect.

I always felt Ayrton was too much, and the only way I can explain it is in the film, the sound clip of him on the radio after winning in Brazil, the man sounded out of control, maniacal possessed, it was disturbing. If I were Prost listening to that I would be in fear of the man I really would. It was just too much.

And the cracks appeared a lot, the Stewart interview was fascinating, the contempt this man showed for a man who lived through death and survived, making this petulant little twerp's life in a racing car far safer, was also too much for me. The post 92 stuff with Mansell bhing about Prost putting a veto on him at Williams, what did you expect man for goodness sake.

A tragic loss for sure, but for me his reputation was long since tarnished.

Muzzer79

4,655 posts

152 months

Wednesday
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LukeBrown66 said:
And the cracks appeared a lot, the Stewart interview was fascinating, the contempt this man showed for a man who lived through death and survived, making this petulant little twerp's life in a racing car far safer, was also too much for me.
In fairness to Ayrton, Jackie Stewart did and does have a very condescending tone with other drivers. His superiority complex is notable.

red_slr

12,573 posts

154 months

Wednesday
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Hoping to drive to Imola in late April 2024 for the 30 years. Just an idea at this stage but probably combine with a GP or two on the way there or back. Would be BCN and Monaco I think assuming Baku is gone.

Mark A S

1,498 posts

153 months

Wednesday
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I had 3 days before his death just separated from wife no 2, so was feeling rather down but looked forward to the GP on 1st May.

After Gilles he was easily the Driver I admired the most, mainly for his skill and like Gilles made me think the impossible was possible, Donnington 93 as one example.
As you can imagine, watching him die on TV pretty much finished me off at that period in time, so it’s certainly something I will not forget, although I try too.

I am 99.9% sure steering failure caused him to crash, even with aero loss etc, cars do not tend to drive strait into a wall without some form of driver correction changing the cars attitude, he was Very unlucky.

He would be 61 now like me. I often wonder what he would be doing if still around.

Eric Mc

115,007 posts

230 months

Wednesday
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Mark A S said:
I had 3 days before his death just separated from wife no 2, so was feeling rather down but looked forward to the GP on 1st May.


I am 99.9% sure steering failure caused him to crash, even with aero loss etc, cars do not tend to drive strait into a wall without some form of driver correction changing the cars attitude, he was Very unlucky.
It does when it bottoms out and gets deflected. The car was taboganning i.e. the front wheels were actually off the ground with no steering possible.

He was not a God. He made mistakes - all the time. Like all racing drivers, he had plenty of crashes where he made errors. Why are people so enthralled with his rather bonkers semi-mystic personality? He was a human who made errors - like all of us.

DeejRC

2,020 posts

47 months

Wednesday
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Enthralled is the right word. He was that throwback to the glamorous exciting knights on chargers and then dogfighting in the air! He was all so exciting!

Old or bold. The adage has applied time and time again.
Then he died and acquired mythic status.


pablo

15,553 posts

238 months

Wednesday
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Eric Mc said:
Mark A S said:
I had 3 days before his death just separated from wife no 2, so was feeling rather down but looked forward to the GP on 1st May.


I am 99.9% sure steering failure caused him to crash, even with aero loss etc, cars do not tend to drive strait into a wall without some form of driver correction changing the cars attitude, he was Very unlucky.
It does when it bottoms out and gets deflected. The car was taboganning i.e. the front wheels were actually off the ground with no steering possible.

He was not a God. He made mistakes - all the time. Like all racing drivers, he had plenty of crashes where he made errors. Why are people so enthralled with his rather bonkers semi-mystic personality? He was a human who made errors - like all of us.
But no one on this thread has made any of the claims you are trying to counter, no one is claiming he was a god, you’re simply making a (somewhat) weak argument to validate your own opinion that he wasn’t worthy of the deity status others place upon him. Change the record or go find the people you’re actually arguing against.

Every single Senna thread is the same, no one claims he was a god or infallible but you argue he wasn’t anyway... you seem to chop and change between “the car bottomed out and he had no steering” and “he made a mistake” depending upon the weather.

Edited by pablo on Wednesday 5th May 13:22

Eric Mc

115,007 posts

230 months

Wednesday
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Those that refuse to accept that his death might have been made due to driver error are, de facto, assuming he could not make an error.

That is the issue. They have placed him in some sort of glorified saintly box where he was incapable of making a mistake. It's blindingly obvious in the way they LONG for the accident to have been down to some mechanical cause - and not human error.

VladD

7,471 posts

230 months

Wednesday
quotequote all
pablo said:
Eric Mc said:
Mark A S said:
I had 3 days before his death just separated from wife no 2, so was feeling rather down but looked forward to the GP on 1st May.


I am 99.9% sure steering failure caused him to crash, even with aero loss etc, cars do not tend to drive strait into a wall without some form of driver correction changing the cars attitude, he was Very unlucky.
It does when it bottoms out and gets deflected. The car was taboganning i.e. the front wheels were actually off the ground with no steering possible.

He was not a God. He made mistakes - all the time. Like all racing drivers, he had plenty of crashes where he made errors. Why are people so enthralled with his rather bonkers semi-mystic personality? He was a human who made errors - like all of us.
But no one on this thread has made any of the claims you are trying to counter, no one is claiming he was a god, you’re simply making a (somewhat) weak argument to validate your own opinion that he wasn’t worthy of the deity status others place upon him. Change the record or go find the people you’re actually arguing against. Every single Senna thread is the same, no one claims he was a god or infallible but you argue he wasn’t anyway...
Wikipedia said:
In May 2011, Williams FW16 designer Adrian Newey expressed his views about the crash:

The honest truth is that no one will ever know exactly what happened. There's no doubt the steering column failed and the big question was whether it failed in the accident or did it cause the accident? It had fatigue cracks and would have failed at some point. There is no question that its design was very poor. However, all the evidence suggests the car did not go off the track as a result of steering column failure... If you look at the camera shots, especially from Michael Schumacher's following car, the car didn't understeer off the track. It oversteered which is not consistent with a steering column failure. The rear of the car stepped out and all the data suggests that happened. Ayrton then corrected that by going to 50% throttle which would be consistent with trying to reduce the rear stepping out and then, half-a-second later, he went hard on the brakes. The question then is why did the rear step out? The car bottomed much harder on that second lap which again appears to be unusual because the tyre pressure should have come up by then – which leaves you expecting that the right rear tyre probably picked up a puncture from debris on the track. If I was pushed into picking out a single most likely cause that would be it.

VladD

7,471 posts

230 months

Wednesday
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I was actually out playing paintball when the race was on live, so I had it recorded on VHS. I got home to watch it and had a phone message from my younger brother telling me what happened. I still felt the need to watch though. Terrible weekend.

It has to be said though that I wasn't Senna's biggest fan. I admired his speed, but was put off by his all-or-nothing attitude.

I'm not sure that the following is true, but somebody once told me this. The wishbones on Senna's Williams were carbon fibre. After the accident Williams reverted to using aluminium. So, when Schumacher crashed into Hill at the season finale, the aluminium wishbone bent, put Hill out of the race and gave Schumacher the WDC. Had the wishbone still been carbon fibre, it may have withstood the impact of the collision and Hill may have won the 1994 WDC.

sjc

11,762 posts

235 months

Wednesday
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I remember the day clearly, got in having put ceefax on to see the result and instead the page 100 news headline was "Senna pronounced clinically dead". I also vividly remember saying "Oh God no" as I read it.
He died in a racing car,it matters not what viewpoint you take as to how, all I know is Formula 1 has never been the same for me since that day.

LukeBrown66

704 posts

11 months

Wednesday
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AS I said before there are those that treated him differently, I remember being at Silverstone on Friday in 93, sat in the stands and there was this grown man, English by voice, Brazilain flags everywhere, Marlboro everywhere, all the shirts etc, he was ONLY there to see Senna, nothing else mattered, once it stopped he left, not bothered by anything else.

That to me is odd, and sort of only happened with Ayrton I think. When you hear Prost talk about the test at Pembrey when they all had it out in 89 after Imola and you hear that Ayrton was crying, I mean this is not really a good sign, that would be worrying to me as a team boss, but Dennis embraced it.

Watch the press conference at Adelaide after 89, the passion in Dennis's voice, the total and utter disbelief that this push start was so not a wrong thing to do, I find it all very sad, very petulant and he was clearly allowed to be this guy by McLaren, and was obviously NOT finding that situation at Williams nor would it ever be there perhaps.