Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes

[HustleRussell]

TheDeuce said:

This is just another bash Bottas thread really...

Are you new to PH and the internet? This is about the most cerebral and well mannered conversation about a driver that one can expect.

[DanielSan]

I'm tempted to have money on Ocon to replace Bottas for next season, with Russell having to wait another year for Hamilton to retire. Bottas performance in Imola looked like one of a driver whose been told he won't be there next year, and from the amount of encouragement he had on the radio this weekend just gone it's like the team were trying to keep his chin up.

[vulture1]

DanielSan said:

I'm tempted to have money on Ocon to replace Bottas for next season, with Russell having to wait another year for Hamilton to retire. Bottas performance in Imola looked like one of a driver whose been told he won't be there next year, and from the amount of encouragement he had on the radio this weekend just gone it's like the team were trying to keep his chin up.

Bottas isn't good in changeable conditions.

[TheDeuce]

HustleRussell said:

TheDeuce said:

This is just another bash Bottas thread really...

Are you new to PH and the internet? This is about the most cerebral and well mannered conversation about a driver that one can expect.

No, that's fine - but we don't need to bash one driver across multiple threads do we..?

[SpudLink]

HustleRussell said:

TheDeuce said:

This is just another bash Bottas thread really...

Are you new to PH and the internet? This is about the most cerebral and well mannered conversation about a driver that one can expect.

True. No one is attacking him for his lifestyle, social media posts, fashion sense, or alleged sexuality.
Yet.

[Muzzer79]

Supersam83 said:

I've mentioned this on another thread here but I totally agree with OP.

Bottas is just not a good enough driver to be in the 2nd Mercedes F1 seat.

Just comparing him with the previous driver Nico Rosberg shows how bad he is:

LH vs NR 78 Races together as Mercedes teammates.

LH Poles - 35
NR Poles - 29

LH Wins - 32
NR Wins - 22

LH Fastest Laps - 19
NR Fastest Laps - 16

LH Podiums - 55
NR Podiums - 50

Now, look at LH vs VB 82* Races together as Mercedes teammates. (*As of Portugal 2021)

LH Poles - 38
VB Poles - 17

LH Wins - 44
VB Wins - 9

LH Fastest Laps - 23
VB Fastest Laps - 16

LH Podiums - 64
VB Podiums - 49

Bottas is actually one of the biggest reasons LH has reached and broken the F1 records that he has (Wins, Poles, etc).

I'm sure that Lewis Hamilton is very very happy that Bottas is in the 2nd Mercedes and has been for the past 4 seasons.

It would have been a very different story if he was up against a similar level driver to Rosberg.

Alongside the stats, I just feel he isn't that good for Mercedes at marketing either.

I really hope that this season is his last at Mercedes, but then again I have been hoping for this since 2017

49 podiums in 82 races for Mercedes and you think Bottas isn't justifying the seat. That's over half the races he's entered for the team and you think he isn't doing a good enough job? I'll have some of what you're smoking.

Don't you understand that Mercedes don't want him to be as fast as Hamilton?

They want a driver hoovering up 2nd and 3rd places to secure the WCC. Which is what they've got.

Rosberg was a fine driver but it was too close between him and Hamilton. That means too much squabbling and disharmony.

From a Mercedes point of view - Valtteri is doing just fine. The issue with him now is that Hamilton is potentially reaching the end of his career. They need to find a replacement Hamilton so they can continue the success. Bottas isn't a Hamilton replacement, so he may need to make way for Russell, who could be.

[MustangGT]

Muzzer79 said:

49 podiums in 82 races for Mercedes and you think Bottas isn't justifying the seat. That's over half the races he's entered for the team and you think he isn't doing a good enough job? I'll have some of what you're smoking.

Don't you understand that Mercedes don't want him to be as fast as Hamilton?

They want a driver hoovering up 2nd and 3rd places to secure the WCC. Which is what they've got.

Rosberg was a fine driver but it was too close between him and Hamilton. That means too much squabbling and disharmony.

From a Mercedes point of view - Valtteri is doing just fine. The issue with him now is that Hamilton is potentially reaching the end of his career. They need to find a replacement Hamilton so they can continue the success. Bottas isn't a Hamilton replacement, so he may need to make way for Russell, who could be.

Exactly. IMHO VB will make way for GR next year and will be rewarded with the Aston seat alongside LS since SV will retire at the end of this season. GR will have a season or two learning from LH then LH will retire.

[parabolica]

Supersam83 said:

I've mentioned this on another thread here but I totally agree with OP.

Bottas is just not a good enough driver to be in the 2nd Mercedes F1 seat.

Just comparing him with the previous driver Nico Rosberg shows how bad he is:

LH vs NR 78 Races together as Mercedes teammates.

LH Poles - 35
NR Poles - 29

LH Wins - 32
NR Wins - 22

LH Fastest Laps - 19
NR Fastest Laps - 16

LH Podiums - 55
NR Podiums - 50

Now, look at LH vs VB 82* Races together as Mercedes teammates. (*As of Portugal 2021)

LH Poles - 38
VB Poles - 17

LH Wins - 44
VB Wins - 9

LH Fastest Laps - 23
VB Fastest Laps - 16

LH Podiums - 64
VB Podiums - 49

Bottas is actually one of the biggest reasons LH has reached and broken the F1 records that he has (Wins, Poles, etc).

I'm sure that Lewis Hamilton is very very happy that Bottas is in the 2nd Mercedes and has been for the past 4 seasons.

It would have been a very different story if he was up against a similar level driver to Rosberg.

Alongside the stats, I just feel he isn't that good for Mercedes at marketing either.

I really hope that this season is his last at Mercedes, but then again I have been hoping for this since 2017

Not this bullst again making lazy comparisons to something that happened 7 years ago as if nothing has happened or vastly moved on in that time. If Merc didn't want him, he wouldn't have that seat.

As much as I'd love to see George in a better car, a few years ago Ocon was the second coming and he got dropped by Mercedes unceremoniously. George in danger of the same thing happening if he doesn't get the Merc seat next year, and if Hamilton stays on I'm not so sure Merc will upset the status quo.

[HustleRussell]

parabolica said:

a few years ago Ocon was the second coming and he got dropped by Mercedes unceremoniously. George in danger of the same thing happening if he doesn't get the Merc seat next year, and if Hamilton stays on I'm not so sure Merc will upset the status quo.

This is all wrong. Ocon was not ‘dropped by Mercedes unceremoniously’ and while the same thing could happen to George this is not a danger but an additional possible opportunity.

Ocon is probably no longer connected to Mercedes contractually but he is still managed by Toto and probably still features in his master plan. Suspending his formal relationship with Mercedes allowed him to return to the grid when otherwise he may not have had a route back in.

[Exige77]

HustleRussell said:

parabolica said:

a few years ago Ocon was the second coming and he got dropped by Mercedes unceremoniously. George in danger of the same thing happening if he doesn't get the Merc seat next year, and if Hamilton stays on I'm not so sure Merc will upset the status quo.

This is all wrong. Ocon was not ‘dropped by Mercedes unceremoniously’ and while the same thing could happen to George this is not a danger but an additional possible opportunity.

Ocon is probably no longer connected to Mercedes contractually but he is still managed by Toto and probably still features in his master plan. Suspending his formal relationship with Mercedes allowed him to return to the grid when otherwise he may not have had a route back in.

I can just hear Toto saying “Thwow him to the ground Thenturian” !!

[rdjohn]

Jake899 said:

I think to surmise my point; Even as Lewis' back up driver, he should still be bringing more points to Mercedes than he has been.

Not against Max

In the driver’s championship, the premiership is just Lewis and Max.

I feel that Div 2 actually covers a lot of the current crop. It is hard, if not impossible to judge where Valteri is in relation to Danny Ricc, Lando, George, or Charles and Carlos.

Checo looks a lot faster in a Red Bull than he did in a Racing Point, but it really is just the same guy.

Red Bull have climbed to a very similar level to Mercedes. We just need to revel in that achievement and enjoy each race as it unfolds into a memorable Championship.

[J..]

If the goal is both championships then I think Bottas needs to do more than beat Perez. He should take points away from Max on strong Merc tracks, force Max into strategic/defensive decisions etc. If Redbull turns out to have the edge or Hamilton makes a mistake/retirement, then he needs Bottas.

Edit - you could also argue that Russell would occasionally take points away from Hamilton harming his championship chances.

If I were Mercedes I’d keep Bottas, but I want to see Russell!

Edited by J.. on Wednesday 5th May 20:30

[anonymous-user]

Russell proved his point last year making a fool of Bottas in a car he wasn't even comfortable in. He basically did a Hamilton on Bottas.

But that's the problem with Russell getting the 2nd seat at Mercedes.

You can tell there is real friction between Bottas and Russell by what happened at Imola.

[StevieBee]

TheDeuce said:

This is just another bash Bottas thread really... A shame as he's clearly talented and working hard, and has found a place he's very 'useful' albeit probably not in quite the way he aspired to.

The stubborn few that waste time pointing at other drivers who could do better or bring home more points surely do understand that Bottas brings home enough points, they don't need more points if it comes with a risk of intra-team battles and upsets. It doesn't take very much thinking about to realise that this works out extremely well for Mercedes - and that Mercedes would be pretty stupid to do something just because it would make the sport more interesting to watch for a minority that think they know more about how to manage a successful team than Toto.

As said, when Lewis has #8 or #8 is no longer likely to transpire anytime soon, Bottas probably will go. But right now, he is the perfect chap for the job and deserves every bit of praise and £££ for fulfilling a very important role at the team. Even if it's a role he doesn't like - that's his choice though.

Up until this year I would have agreed with you. And to be honest, it's too early to form an opposite opinion this year.

But what's different is Red Bull - both quicker and potentially a stronger driver pairing so Mercedes need both drivers at the top of their games. As I mentioned previous, if Perez ups his game but Bottas doesn't, then Bottas may well be replaced to give Merc the better chance at the WCC.

[RichB]

ELUSIVEJIM said:

,clip. But that's the problem with Russell getting the 2nd seat at Mercedes.

What is?

[Gazzab]

I agree that Bottas might cost them the constructors.
Look at last season - if verstappen hadn’t had so many DNFs then his points would have been much closer to Lewis. With a decent 2nd driver then RB are in with a shout.

[CanoeSniffer]

Muzzer79 said:

49 podiums in 82 races for Mercedes and you think Bottas isn't justifying the seat.

Maybe it’s just me but when it’s picked out like that I think that stat actually makes Bottas sound very poor indeed. My man maths puts that somewhere in the region of 60% podium finishes in what has been very much the strongest machine during Bottas’ tenure at Merc- for him NOT to finish on the podium he has to have been beaten by two inferior cars (notwithstanding Ferrari’s brief glimpses of promise which may account for one or two seasons depending how you judge it).

For what it’s worth I’m not a Bottas basher, to be as close to Hamilton so frequently on qualifying pace shows he’s no mug. Sometimes in races he just seems to have no fight in him at all, no extra ‘edge’.

[HustleRussell]

RichB said:

ELUSIVEJIM said:

,clip. But that's the problem with Russell getting the 2nd seat at Mercedes.

What is?

The bit that you ‘clipped’

[mk1coopers]

Just my personal opinion, Bottas will stay where he is until Lewis has his 8th Championship, if it starts getting tight on the Constructors this year Mercedes will turn things up engine wise on his car only (with strict instructions it's for getting second place if Lewis is leading) even if that means taking a penalty for him at some point at a track where you can overtake so he has a fresher PU

Next year (assuming both championships are won) George will be in the car so he can have a year or two with Lewis, George will be told to take wins where possible and that he will be fully let off the leash once Lewis retires

If it carries on like this it's going to be down to DNF's this year (mechanical or accidental)

[BrettMRC]

mk1coopers said:

If it carries on like this it's going to be down to DNF's this year (mechanical or accidental)

Imagine the fallout of Mercedes lose the WCC because of the VB/GR accident at Imola!