Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes

[Muzzer79]

Joey Deacon said:

Why do Mercedes not listen to their drivers, both Hamilton and Bottas were telling them early on that the tyres would not last. Hamilton told Mercedes to pit him early so they could get the undercut, next thing you know Verstappen is in the pits for his second set of tyres and both Mercedes drivers were sitting ducks.

This part was Bottas' fault.

Apparently, he flat-spotted his tyres relatively early on and the vibrations were becoming critical.

Mercedes therefore had to bring him in before Hamilton. Red Bull reacted to that with Verstappen, the undercut was more powerful than they thought and Verstappen came out in front of Hamilton.

After that, their only option to try and win the race was to one-stop. Two-stopping would only bring them out where they currently were, so they took the gamble.

I'm not sure why they didn't pit Bottas and go for fastest lap after Perez passed him. Odd decision.

[kiseca]

Muzzer79 said:

Jake899 said:

Perez finished ahead of him. Yes Max also beat his rival, but looking at Valtteri specifically, his job is to finish ahead of Checo and take points off Max whenever possible. He failed in that this weekend, for whatever reason.

Hamilton's job is to finish ahead of Max. He couldn't achieve that on a similar strategy to Bottas, so why should Bottas be able to beat Perez on an inferior strategy?

Jake899 said:

Second, his race craft. The manner in which the Red Bulls breezed past him was frankly, embarrassing. Not only did he not defend at all he fell off the track the second Max got within striking distance. Max lost absolutely zero time behind him. Even 5 seconds resistance, just a lap or two, anything, could have made the difference between Max having the time to catch Lewis. Fighting behind a car is the best way to ruin your tires and rhythm. I think that was really difficult to excuse from Valtteri.

I don't recall Verstappen having any issue getting past Hamilton on his worn tyres either.

What are either Mercedes drivers supposed to do? If your tyres are shot, they're shot.

Jake899 said:

Lastly, the whining on the radio. It's a team sport.

If they didn't allow whining on the radio, they wouldn't have any drivers left.

Jake899 said:

I continue to maintain, that his standard of racing just isn't good enough for the seat he's in.

Another one expecting the driver to turn water into wine......

With those long straights and Red Bull having a speed advantage, I didn't think there was much either driver could do. I was expecting Lewis to DRS back into the mix but by the time they got to the next zone Max already had over a second on him.

I thought Bottas did alright this weekend. Speed wise, he was up there. Defending wise, he tried but with his worn front tyres he overcooked it. A mistake but all the top drivers have made mistakes under pressure this season.

He finished behind Perez, who also had a good race, but the Red Bulls looked like the faster car anyway and at a track with such long straights overtaking looked easy. As for not defending, Perez didn't put up much of a fight against Lewis on the restart at Baku, either. He got the place back because Lewis cocked up a setting on the wheel. And I don't blame Perez (or Bottas) for that. Bring the car home in the highest position you can. Bottas has never really been a fighter on the track anyway, so it's not as though this is a new thing for him. This is Bottas being Bottas, but now with the championship being so close all of a sudden it's not good enough anymore.

I think it's the best he's got, and it's the best he's ever had, but the last couple of seasons when the Merc was so much better and it didn't matter, everyone was calling him the perfect team mate. He's still that same driver. He came 3rd and 5th in his first two seasons at Merc, and he can't get any faster without himself being a challenge to Lewis. And is there any driver on the grid right now who is fast enough to do that but unambitious enough not to go for the title himself? Not a chance.

[Teddy Lop]

Joey Deacon said:

Why do Mercedes not listen to their drivers, both Hamilton and Bottas were telling them early on that the tyres would not last. Hamilton told Mercedes to pit him early so they could get the undercut, next thing you know Verstappen is in the pits for his second set of tyres and both Mercedes drivers were sitting ducks.

Also why did they not pit Bottas at the end and go for the fastest lap as they were miles ahead of 5th place?

I personally think that Mercedes are not used to this sort of pressure and seem to be making mistakes in their strategy that they would have got away with in other years. They had done the two stop thing to Red Bull in the past so not as if they couldn't see what was going to happen.

Mercedes are going to see the constructors championship slip away from them if Perez keeps finishing ahead of Bottas.

I've said repeatedly throughout mercs reign that their strat stinks, they've just been fast enough to ride it out and that's enough to convince many people. I was actually genuinely shocked at what they did in Barcelona, to go for an attacking strat instead of conservative, thought something might have changed. RB know how to win races with wile and that might well be what swings it for them.

[Frimley111R]

Joey Deacon said:

I personally think that Mercedes are not used to this sort of pressure and seem to be making mistakes in their strategy that they would have got away with in other years.
.

Well yes, when you're dominant there's no pressure on you and so everything is less critical. A minor mistake here and there makes no difference. You can see the same with Vettel, during his WDC years he was dominant and did not make mistakes, once he wasn't dominant...

[APontus]

Red Bull have spent the last 8 years fighting for scraps. With the slower car, they've had to maximise every other element, from strategy to pitstops. They're loads better than Mercedes at the non-car stuff and now they have the faster/equal car you can see the advantage the non-car stuff brings in the standings.

[anonymous-user]

kiseca said:

I think it's the best he's got, and it's the best he's ever had, but the last couple of seasons when the Merc was so much better and it didn't matter, everyone was calling him the perfect team mate. He's still that same driver. He came 3rd and 5th in his first two seasons at Merc, and he can't get any faster without himself being a challenge to Lewis. And is there any driver on the grid right now who is fast enough to do that but unambitious enough not to go for the title himself? Not a chance.

I was going to basically post the same thing, he was the perfect team mate all the while Mercedes easily had the best car. He could drive around doing an OK but not remarkable job and score enough points so that Mercedes could also win the Constructors championship. The last thing Mercedes and Lewis wanted was another team mate like Nico Rosberg.

Now Mercedes don't have the fastest car anymore and all of his shortcomings are clear for everyone to see and are now hurting Mercedes. Essentially Bottas cannot defend for any length of time and he certainly cannot make his way through the field to make up places. You only have to look at Azerbaijan where he was stuck in the middle of the pack the whole race and could only finish 12th, a race where Lewis had both Red Bulls all over him.

I seriously think Mercedes are going to lose the constructors title this year and a big reason for that is going to be Bottas just not being good enough. Unfortunately now Mercedes need a team mate exactly like Nico Rosberg.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 21st June 09:57

[ch37]

APontus said:

Red Bull have spent the last 8 years fighting for scraps. With the slower car, they've had to maximise every other element, from strategy to pitstops. They're loads better than Mercedes at the non-car stuff and now they have the faster/equal car you can see the advantage the non-car stuff brings in the standings.

I'd agree with that, RB are masters at maximising what they have (although since Ricciardo left, just with the one car) and now they have a car that is there or thereabouts, they can continue to put all that into practice to fight for a championship. That plus having Perez in the second seat (who appears to be quickly getting the hang of the RB) means they have additional strategy options that simply were not available in the past couple of years.

Mercedes are rarely near the quickest pit stop times and have relied - many times - on Hamilton digging them out of a strategy hole whilst dominant.

[Durzel]

It speaks to the superiority of the Mercedes car in previous years that Bottas being just good enough has been enough for them to win multiple WCCs. Now that they actually have some meaningful, consistent competition his shortcomings have been brought into sharp relief.

Bottas hasn't changed, but now questions are finally being asked of him and Mercedes and they are - for the moment at least - falling short.

Great for neutrals.. the Mercedes show has gone on for far too long.

[Muzzer79]

Teddy Lop said:

I've said repeatedly throughout mercs reign that their strat stinks, they've just been fast enough to ride it out and that's enough to convince many people. I was actually genuinely shocked at what they did in Barcelona, to go for an attacking strat instead of conservative, thought something might have changed. RB know how to win races with wile and that might well be what swings it for them.

Er, Mercedes won in Barcelona?

[mat205125]

Muzzer79 said:

Teddy Lop said:

I've said repeatedly throughout mercs reign that their strat stinks, they've just been fast enough to ride it out and that's enough to convince many people. I was actually genuinely shocked at what they did in Barcelona, to go for an attacking strat instead of conservative, thought something might have changed. RB know how to win races with wile and that might well be what swings it for them.

Er, Mercedes won in Barcelona?

Hence he was shocked they were so bold and creative

[Flooble]

mat205125 said:

Muzzer79 said:

Teddy Lop said:

I've said repeatedly throughout mercs reign that their strat stinks, they've just been fast enough to ride it out and that's enough to convince many people. I was actually genuinely shocked at what they did in Barcelona, to go for an attacking strat instead of conservative, thought something might have changed. RB know how to win races with wile and that might well be what swings it for them.

Er, Mercedes won in Barcelona?

Hence he was shocked they were so bold and creative

Personally I still feel that Mercedes strategists messed up in Barcelona pretty much the same as they messed up in France - they didn't react quickly enough to Verstappen's stop and left Hamilton out losing time to the undercut. However, in Barcelona Hamilton was able to bail them out by doing a series of qualifying laps. Everyone then congratulated the strategists on their "bold strategy" rather than their "paralysed decision making".

It's easy to imagine that had Hamilton somehow hung on for the extra two (1.5?) laps everyone would again be saying how brilliant Mercedes' strategy team were.

We've seen Mercedes unable to react to a changing race many times before and be paralysed at pit stop time, especially when there's a safety car. I think it was in Australia 2018 when they didn't pit under the VSC and lost the race then claimed a "software glitch" had miscalculated the gap required.

[dobly]

Bottas couldn't defend, because he had no tyres left - but why? I think it was because he tried to stay too close to the top two in the first stint, rather than drive his own race - Perez didn't try to get close to Bottas in that first part of the race - Mercedes should have seen this and told Bottas to keep a bigger gap behind Max, to preserve his tyres. It was clear that Perez was going long, and clear to me that Max wasn't going to do a conventional strategy, so Mercedes should have investigated the 2 stop for one of their drivers...

[parabolica]

wiliferus said:

Maybe I’m being overly harsh. It seems so. I hope he can find a way to enjoy the rest of the season as he’s not a happy man at the moment.

I didn't realise he was on the verge or retiring last year and didn't really want to race this year (according to Webber on the On The Marbles podcast). I can imagine the way things have gone so far this year his heart really isn't in it, although he still seems to be putting the work in with the team between race weekends and is still fighting for poles.

[vulture1]

One thing for sure picking a footy team you wouldn't put bottas in goals or defence. How many race are there when he never holds someone up.

Infact the best defence he did was at Barcelona and that was against his own teammate!

[cuprabob]

parabolica said:

wiliferus said:

Maybe I’m being overly harsh. It seems so. I hope he can find a way to enjoy the rest of the season as he’s not a happy man at the moment.

I didn't realise he was on the verge or retiring last year and didn't really want to race this year (according to Webber on the On The Marbles podcast). I can imagine the way things have gone so far this year his heart really isn't in it, although he still seems to be putting the work in with the team between race weekends and is still fighting for poles.

Toto made reference to this in one of his interviews on Channel 4 over the weekend.

[super7]

Flooble said:

mat205125 said:

Muzzer79 said:

Teddy Lop said:

I've said repeatedly throughout mercs reign that their strat stinks, they've just been fast enough to ride it out and that's enough to convince many people. I was actually genuinely shocked at what they did in Barcelona, to go for an attacking strat instead of conservative, thought something might have changed. RB know how to win races with wile and that might well be what swings it for them.

Er, Mercedes won in Barcelona?

Hence he was shocked they were so bold and creative

Personally I still feel that Mercedes strategists messed up in Barcelona pretty much the same as they messed up in France - they didn't react quickly enough to Verstappen's stop and left Hamilton out losing time to the undercut. However, in Barcelona Hamilton was able to bail them out by doing a series of qualifying laps. Everyone then congratulated the strategists on their "bold strategy" rather than their "paralysed decision making".

It's easy to imagine that had Hamilton somehow hung on for the extra two (1.5?) laps everyone would again be saying how brilliant Mercedes' strategy team were.

We've seen Mercedes unable to react to a changing race many times before and be paralysed at pit stop time, especially when there's a safety car. I think it was in Australia 2018 when they didn't pit under the VSC and lost the race then claimed a "software glitch" had miscalculated the gap required.

The Mercedes strategists underestimated the power of the force... sorry... undercut!!!

Were they asleep when Ricciardo pitted and jumped both an Alpine and a Ferrari before Verstappen pitted a couple of laps later? They cocked up again before the second round of stops. The team monumentally screwed up.

They let Vestappen get Hamilton and they let Perez have a tyre advantage to get Bottas.

[Jake899]

Muzzer79 said:

Jake899 said:

Perez finished ahead of him. Yes Max also beat his rival, but looking at Valtteri specifically, his job is to finish ahead of Checo and take points off Max whenever possible. He failed in that this weekend, for whatever reason.

Hamilton's job is to finish ahead of Max. He couldn't achieve that on a similar strategy to Bottas, so why should Bottas be able to beat Perez on an inferior strategy?

Hamilton has finished in front of Max 4 times this year, Bottas 3 times in front of Perez. Hamilton on average has finished second, Bottas on average 8th so far this season. I understand the Red Bulls were stronger in this race, I said as much. Both drivers were beaten by their opposite number. The difference is that was unusual for Lewis over his F1 career, and pretty standard for Bottas over his career and over the season thus far.

Jake899 said:

Second, his race craft. The manner in which the Red Bulls breezed past him was frankly, embarrassing. Not only did he not defend at all he fell off the track the second Max got within striking distance. Max lost absolutely zero time behind him. Even 5 seconds resistance, just a lap or two, anything, could have made the difference between Max having the time to catch Lewis. Fighting behind a car is the best way to ruin your tires and rhythm. I think that was really difficult to excuse from Valtteri.

I don't recall Verstappen having any issue getting past Hamilton on his worn tyres either.

What are either Mercedes drivers supposed to do? If your tyres are shot, they're shot.



Agreed in this race. But lets be honest, you come up behind a Mercedes with the intention to overtake. Who would you prefer to be in it, Bottas or Hamilton? Or alternatively, a Mercedes appears in your mirrors, who scares you more, Valtteri or Lewis?
Over the years I think they've undeniably proven that Hamilton is a deserved champion, and Bottas just doesn't get it done when the chips are down.

Jake899 said:

Lastly, the whining on the radio. It's a team sport.

If they didn't allow whining on the radio, they wouldn't have any drivers left.



I know, but I hate it. If you're a whining winner, in my view you're not a winner. I hate that it's become popular to be rude to your engineer. If I was an F1 engineer, i would make it 100% clear that there would be zero tolerance for that, we are both doing our best for the same goal on the same team. The lowest point in my view was Alonso a few races back, being encouraged by his engineer to push for 10th to get a point. Alonso replied I already have 1900 points... If I was that engineer I would have thrown my headphones at him on his next lap. Selfish idiot.

Jake899 said:

I continue to maintain, that his standard of racing just isn't good enough for the seat he's in.

Another one expecting the driver to turn water into wine......

Well that's kind of my point, Bottas is very nice water.

Edited by Jake899 on Monday 21st June 12:47

[MustangGT]

Perhaps we should start a 'James Vowles should go' thread. Mercedes strategy is nowhere near good enough now there is a car as good as the RB.

[Jake899]

Joey Deacon said:

I seriously think Mercedes are going to lose the constructors title this year and a big reason for that is going to be Bottas just not being good enough. Unfortunately now Mercedes need a team mate exactly like Nico Rosberg.

Edited by Joey Deacon on Monday 21st June 09:57

This sentence is exactly right. times are changing in Formula 1, and the supportive B driver is losing its relevance...

[eps]

Valterri has been good these past few years, but maybe his attempts are catching up with him - i.e. he's tried his best, raised his game and got close but then realised (at the time) that even his best ever just isn't going to put him ahead of Lewis.

Merc are faltering slightly - they're under more pressure than ever so it's to be expected. Hopefully they can improve by few percent (if not decimal percent) to ensure the championships go down to the wire. If he'd managed to resist Max for 1 more lap it could have been a totally different end to the race, but racing is full of a lot of 'ifs'.

This season has been great and quite mouth watering so far - long may it continue!