Valtteri Bottas at Mercedes
Discussion
Jake899 said:
Joey Deacon said:
I seriously think Mercedes are going to lose the constructors title this year and a big reason for that is going to be Bottas just not being good enough. Unfortunately now Mercedes need a team mate exactly like Nico Rosberg.
This sentence is exactly right. times are changing in Formula 1, and the supportive B driver is losing its relevance...Edited by Joey Deacon on Monday 21st June 09:57
Jake899 said:
Joey Deacon said:
I seriously think Mercedes are going to lose the constructors title this year and a big reason for that is going to be Bottas just not being good enough. Unfortunately now Mercedes need a team mate exactly like Nico Rosberg.
This sentence is exactly right. times are changing in Formula 1, and the supportive B driver is losing its relevance...Edited by Joey Deacon on Monday 21st June 09:57
You just need two drivers who get on. Bottas shows, as did Irvine and Barrichello before him, that being the compliant number 2, constantly outpaced by your team mate and nothing you can do about it even if everything was equal because they're just better, also makes for an unhappy driver and a frustrated side of the garage.
People think of the championships lost when drivers take points away from eachother but that hardly ever happens. Williams may have won the driver's title in 1986 if one of their drivers had been dominant over the other, but that would mean one of them would have been slower, in which case they may well have lost the constructors title instead. Esp. if Keke hadn't taken 16 races to click with his McLaren (another recurring theme.... highly rated drivers unable to come to grips with their McLaren).
What you need for team harmony isn't two drivers of different pace, but two drivers who get along with eachother. That relationship is certainly tested when they're fighting eachother for a championship but it works as often as it doesn't.
And if you don't have one of the two top drivers on the grid in your team, it means that top driver is fighting you in a competitor's car. The only reason I think is valid for not having two top drivers in your team is it would be damn expensive, and if it's enough to hit your development budget you could lose more performance than you gain through the drivers. That, and having two drivers who actually get on with eachother. I can't imagine Max having a happy relationship with a second driver as quick as he is, though to be fair to him I believe that he and Daniel actually do get on well.
Zetec-S said:
Jake899 said:
Joey Deacon said:
I seriously think Mercedes are going to lose the constructors title this year and a big reason for that is going to be Bottas just not being good enough. Unfortunately now Mercedes need a team mate exactly like Nico Rosberg.
This sentence is exactly right. times are changing in Formula 1, and the supportive B driver is losing its relevance...Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 21st June 09:57
I would say Perez is doing a really good job now, he hasn't got the pace of Max but he is there when it matters. Ultimately all he has to do is be on a different strategy, hold up Lewis where possible and finish ahead of Bottas.
Who was there when Max and Hamilton both failed to finish, it certainly wasn't Bottas.
Jake899 said:
Joey Deacon said:
I seriously think Mercedes are going to lose the constructors title this year and a big reason for that is going to be Bottas just not being good enough. Unfortunately now Mercedes need a team mate exactly like Nico Rosberg.
This sentence is exactly right. times are changing in Formula 1, and the supportive B driver is losing its relevance...Edited by Joey Deacon on Monday 21st June 09:57
Joey Deacon said:
Ultimately it has been proved time and time again that nobody else can drive the Red Bull car as fast as Max Verstappen. Being Max Verstappen's team mate has been the kiss of death for a lot of F1 drivers, the smart ones ones have jumped to another team before they have been pushed.
I would say Perez is doing a really good job now, he hasn't got the pace of Max but he is there when it matters. Ultimately all he has to do is be on a different strategy, hold up Lewis where possible and finish ahead of Bottas.
Who was there when Max and Hamilton both failed to finish, it certainly wasn't Bottas.
It seems at the moment while Perez is lacking in qualifying, his race pace is actually pretty close to Verstappen. It looked baffling at first yesterday just how far he'd fallen back from the lead 3 then the radio call came that they were going long and doing a one stop and it suddenly made sense that Perez was running at the slower pace to manage tyres. He looks like he's got the hang of that Red Bull when it matters most now, and those last couple of tenths in quali will come. At the moment it seems a no brainer to not have him in the car again next year..I would say Perez is doing a really good job now, he hasn't got the pace of Max but he is there when it matters. Ultimately all he has to do is be on a different strategy, hold up Lewis where possible and finish ahead of Bottas.
Who was there when Max and Hamilton both failed to finish, it certainly wasn't Bottas.
bobbo89 said:
Really? Most of the blame being pinned on Bottas when Hamilton isn't even leading the championship? I think the reason Merc will lose the constructors is because Red Bull have a faster car this year.
Perez is a better driver than Bottas, and also has superior tyre management.sparta6 said:
bobbo89 said:
Really? Most of the blame being pinned on Bottas when Hamilton isn't even leading the championship? I think the reason Merc will lose the constructors is because Red Bull have a faster car this year.
Perez is a better driver than Bottas, and also has superior tyre management.Jake899 said:
Muzzer79 said:
Jake899 said:
Perez finished ahead of him. Yes Max also beat his rival, but looking at Valtteri specifically, his job is to finish ahead of Checo and take points off Max whenever possible. He failed in that this weekend, for whatever reason.
Hamilton's job is to finish ahead of Max. He couldn't achieve that on a similar strategy to Bottas, so why should Bottas be able to beat Perez on an inferior strategy? Hamilton has finished in front of Max 4 times this year, Bottas 3 times in front of Perez. Hamilton on average has finished second, Bottas on average 8th so far this season. I understand the Red Bulls were stronger in this race, I said as much. Both drivers were beaten by their opposite number. The difference is that was unusual for Lewis over his F1 career, and pretty standard for Bottas over his career and over the season thus far.
Imola - where he was taken out by Russell whilst in 9th. Perez finished 12th.
Monaco - where he was running comfortably ahead of Perez before his wheel nut issue
Baku - Bottas struggled with car
France - Bottas had a compromised strategy.
So, basically, the last 2 races have been the problem. His average finishing place is low due to the two DNFs and the 12th in Baku.
I'm not sure how you get that finishing behind his opposite number is "pretty standard over his career" either.
He beat his opposite number in 2020
And in 2019
And in 2017
2016 he was at Williams, so it's debatable who his "opposite number" was. However, let's just say that he finished above his (11-time race winner) team-mate in the standings every year he was a full-time driver there (2014-2016)
95 fiesta si said:
Muzzer79 said:
He beat his opposite number in 2020
And in 2019
And in 2017
that wouldn't of been hard though in the 2017 and 2019 Merc. i reckon i could of.And in 2019
And in 2017
Point still remains. It's not "pretty standard" for him not to beat his equivalent driver over the course of a year.
He just can't beat the very top driver(s) of the time - Hamilton, Verstappen.
As said multiple times before - he is a Berger, a Barrichello, a Massa. A fine driver who does a good job as a number two.
Put the majority of the rest of the grid there and they would do no better.
He needs to move on for 2022 because they need to get a succession plan in for Hamilton, not because he isn't good enough.
He also seems pretty cheesed off at Mercedes in general. Probably because he's already got the message that he won't be there next year.
Flooble said:
mat205125 said:
Muzzer79 said:
Teddy Lop said:
I've said repeatedly throughout mercs reign that their strat stinks, they've just been fast enough to ride it out and that's enough to convince many people. I was actually genuinely shocked at what they did in Barcelona, to go for an attacking strat instead of conservative, thought something might have changed. RB know how to win races with wile and that might well be what swings it for them.
Er, Mercedes won in Barcelona?It's easy to imagine that had Hamilton somehow hung on for the extra two (1.5?) laps everyone would again be saying how brilliant Mercedes' strategy team were.
We've seen Mercedes unable to react to a changing race many times before and be paralysed at pit stop time, especially when there's a safety car. I think it was in Australia 2018 when they didn't pit under the VSC and lost the race then claimed a "software glitch" had miscalculated the gap required.
Paralysed decision making is the perfect descriptor. (I'm told in Monaco they asked Lewis himself over radio what he wanted to do. I mean wtf?). Lewis was on an absolute nothing strategy yesterday, they should have chosen and committed to looking after tyres or committed to two stopping. Better still would be if the namesake of this thread could have harrassed max into burning his tyres while Lewis husbanded his in clean air, but that would have take the capability that doesn't exist in both bottas driving and mercedes thinking. And of course they'd be terrified of giving the behind driver a strat that could potentially means he passes the Infront driver, ohnoes, better to just throw the race away...
kiseca said:
And if you don't have one of the two top drivers on the grid in your team, it means that top driver is fighting you in a competitor's car. The only reason I think is valid for not having two top drivers in your team is it would be damn expensive, and if it's enough to hit your development budget you could lose more performance than you gain through the drivers. That, and having two drivers who actually get on with eachother. I can't imagine Max having a happy relationship with a second driver as quick as he is, though to be fair to him I believe that he and Daniel actually do get on well.
That’s an interesting point. I wonder how much dosh it’d take Hamilton to drive for Haas!The Moose said:
kiseca said:
And if you don't have one of the two top drivers on the grid in your team, it means that top driver is fighting you in a competitor's car. The only reason I think is valid for not having two top drivers in your team is it would be damn expensive, and if it's enough to hit your development budget you could lose more performance than you gain through the drivers. That, and having two drivers who actually get on with eachother. I can't imagine Max having a happy relationship with a second driver as quick as he is, though to be fair to him I believe that he and Daniel actually do get on well.
That’s an interesting point. I wonder how much dosh it’d take Hamilton to drive for Haas!
It has been widely reported that Mercedes will announce Russell at Silverstone.
I feel sorry for Valtteri, he has been very loyal to Merc, but all you can see for him is Indy, or a return to Williams - making up the numbers. There is no decent seat likely to fall vacant for him, next year.
Max and Lewis are the current cream of the crop. Lando and George are the young pretenders. The teams have all the data that they need to sort the wheat from the chaff and they pay the salaries. I do not believe that any of the current 20 drivers are unfit to drive in F1.
It is just a tough competition, where the chassis are the key deciding factor for which team will win the championship. The driver can only try to maximise the chassis potential.
I feel sorry for Valtteri, he has been very loyal to Merc, but all you can see for him is Indy, or a return to Williams - making up the numbers. There is no decent seat likely to fall vacant for him, next year.
Max and Lewis are the current cream of the crop. Lando and George are the young pretenders. The teams have all the data that they need to sort the wheat from the chaff and they pay the salaries. I do not believe that any of the current 20 drivers are unfit to drive in F1.
It is just a tough competition, where the chassis are the key deciding factor for which team will win the championship. The driver can only try to maximise the chassis potential.
rdjohn said:
It has been widely reported that Mercedes will announce Russell at Silverstone.
I feel sorry for Valtteri, he has been very loyal to Merc, but all you can see for him is Indy, or a return to Williams - making up the numbers. There is no decent seat likely to fall vacant for him, next year.
Max and Lewis are the current cream of the crop. Lando and George are the young pretenders. The teams have all the data that they need to sort the wheat from the chaff and they pay the salaries. I do not believe that any of the current 20 drivers are unfit to drive in F1.
It is just a tough competition, where the chassis are the key deciding factor for which team will win the championship. The driver can only try to maximise the chassis potential.
He's had a 5 year run in a car that was never less than championship capable and at times dominant and more importantly has been permitted to fight on equal terms against his team mate. (Yes as the championship has taken form the team's needs have taken precedent a few times but not before his own in season performance dictated such). Besides the misfortune of finding his time in that car alongside the guy people are continually arguing is the greatest person to hop into a racing car, there is nothing to feel sorry for him about. He's had a stupendous opportunity and I bet there's a list of drivers of some pedigree that'd trade places in a heartbeat.I feel sorry for Valtteri, he has been very loyal to Merc, but all you can see for him is Indy, or a return to Williams - making up the numbers. There is no decent seat likely to fall vacant for him, next year.
Max and Lewis are the current cream of the crop. Lando and George are the young pretenders. The teams have all the data that they need to sort the wheat from the chaff and they pay the salaries. I do not believe that any of the current 20 drivers are unfit to drive in F1.
It is just a tough competition, where the chassis are the key deciding factor for which team will win the championship. The driver can only try to maximise the chassis potential.
He needs to think about that when admonishing his team in public. They didn't make a barichello or a Irvine etc etc out of him.
rdjohn said:
It has been widely reported that Mercedes will announce Russell at Silverstone.
I feel sorry for Valtteri, he has been very loyal to Merc, but all you can see for him is Indy, or a return to Williams - making up the numbers. There is no decent seat likely to fall vacant for him, next year.
Max and Lewis are the current cream of the crop. Lando and George are the young pretenders. The teams have all the data that they need to sort the wheat from the chaff and they pay the salaries. I do not believe that any of the current 20 drivers are unfit to drive in F1.
It is just a tough competition, where the chassis are the key deciding factor for which team will win the championship. The driver can only try to maximise the chassis potential.
I do think announcing Russell at Silverstone would be a weird move as essentially VB would be driven to visibly reject Mercs requests to help Hamilton to retain some pride.I feel sorry for Valtteri, he has been very loyal to Merc, but all you can see for him is Indy, or a return to Williams - making up the numbers. There is no decent seat likely to fall vacant for him, next year.
Max and Lewis are the current cream of the crop. Lando and George are the young pretenders. The teams have all the data that they need to sort the wheat from the chaff and they pay the salaries. I do not believe that any of the current 20 drivers are unfit to drive in F1.
It is just a tough competition, where the chassis are the key deciding factor for which team will win the championship. The driver can only try to maximise the chassis potential.
I think he should do Indy. Grosjean is having the absolute time of his life at the moment and doing really very well. But Romains elbows out driving style might be better suited than Bottas'.
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