Official 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
ajprice said:
Article on F1 site https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.pirelli...
That does sound awfully like Pirelli are saying the teams are doing something funky, with the tyre pressures or loading, that pushed them over their limit. Adrian W said:
can anyone actually understand what Perelli said? or was it "it's not our fault, so it must be the teams"
They said "The tyres were within our parameters before the cars left the pits. There is no sign of external damage. Both broke circumferrentiallly around the inner sidewall. This type of failure can be related to the running conditions of the tyre. There was no evidence of production or quality defects on any of the tyres."Anything else anyone wants to read in to that is speculation. Whether they are intentionally insinuating that Red Bull and Aston Martin somehow ran the tyres outside of recommended limits or not, only they will know.
To me they are leaving the door open to saying the tyre was outside the prescribed running conditions despite being within them in the pits, but without saying this was purposeful.
As jsf says, the pressures are monitored throughout the race, so as long as that measurement is sensitive enough it should be easy to show whether the tyre was outside running conditions or not at any moment.
The way they describe the failure to me sounds like the sidewall split circularly due to being weakened by repeated bending, which would happen if under low pressure. However, this would be fatigue, and Pirelli did specifically say no signs of fatigue were found.
So who knows? For me, the finger is still firmly pointing at Pirelli, but on the other hand, Red Bull finding a way to make the car pass static tests but then run in a condition that doesn't pass them? That's not exactly unknown territory for them this season. Quite why you'd take that risk with a tyre that you didn't build though, I'm not sure.
So, I think Pirelli have to keep working at it and say what conditions actually caused the failure. They need to remove the speculation.
An interesting article on RaceFans on how they might be running lower pressures
https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/15/extensive-new-...
https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/15/extensive-new-...
RaceFans said:
among the additions, teams have been told delaying the departure of their cars from the pits after their tyre blankets have been removed will be considered a means of cooling their tyres. Any frequent occurrences of this, or delays lasting more than half a minute, will need to be justified by the team involved.
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Teams have also been told they may not alter the composition of the gas within the tyres, including its moisture content, to achieve different pressure levels when its cars are running on track. This will also be policed using the cooling curve.
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Teams have also been told they may not alter the composition of the gas within the tyres, including its moisture content, to achieve different pressure levels when its cars are running on track. This will also be policed using the cooling curve.
Munter said:
kiseca said:
prescribed running conditions
I don't think that's a thing. Or it wasn't. They had prescribed handling/fitting conditions if you like. But after that, no conditions.Pirelli said:
In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.
I was making reference to the running conditions mentioned by Pirelli.It would be reasonable to expect that if Pirelli have prescribed starting parameters for the tyre, that the running conditions are expected to be a natural continuation from this starting condition. Otherwise the starting parameters are pointless.
Pirelli are saying they think the running conditions might not have been what they were expecting.
angrymoby said:
puts that 'altruistic' call for a red flag from Red Bull's Jonathan Wheatley in a slightly different light ...if Red Bull have knowingly been playing with tyre pressures during races
It would also explain why there was absolutely no warning, because it wasn’t a failure by damage, it was a structural failure by running under pressure.Mercedes have now been on top for 7 years, and aside from DAS which was declared legal, I don’t recall a thing that anybody has been able to question them on. Ferrari and Red Bull start to get close and some very questionable tactics soon start to bubble up
angrymoby said:
puts that 'altruistic' call for a red flag from Red Bull's Jonathan Wheatley in a slightly different light ...if Red Bull have knowingly been playing with tyre pressures during races
I was just thinking the same thing. Hope it's just me being an old cynic.Frigging with the tyres (not just pressure but the actual gas used was alluded to) would be a really bad thing not far off when refuelling rigs were tampered with in the past.
kiseca said:
Munter said:
kiseca said:
prescribed running conditions
I don't think that's a thing. Or it wasn't. They had prescribed handling/fitting conditions if you like. But after that, no conditions.Pirelli said:
In each case, this was down to a circumferential break on the inner sidewall, which can be related to the running conditions of the tyre, in spite of the prescribed starting parameters (minimum pressure and maximum blanket temperature) having been followed.
I was making reference to the running conditions mentioned by Pirelli.It would be reasonable to expect that if Pirelli have prescribed starting parameters for the tyre, that the running conditions are expected to be a natural continuation from this starting condition. Otherwise the starting parameters are pointless.
Pirelli are saying they think the running conditions might not have been what they were expecting.
Yes the starting parameters are devalued (I wouldn't go as far as pointless) if the teams are going to play this game. Because Pirelli have/had not prescribed any conditions for the running of the tyre, they just prescribed conditions for how it should be as it's fitted to the car. If the teams and cars behaved in the way anticipated by Pirelli then the conditions the tyre would be exposed to when running, shouldn't cause a problem. But if the teams or cars don't behave as anticipated (letting the tyres cool, higher downforce, faster speeds etc), then the conditions the tyre is exposed to could cause an issue.
Unless it's somewhere I haven't seen. Pirelli did not prescribe any conditions on the pressures/temperatures etc that the tyre was allowed to experience after being fitted to the car. E.g. what might be called "prescribed running conditions". They only had prescribed conditions for the handling of the tyre as it's fitted to the car. Everything after that isn't prescribed by Pirelli.
Teddy Lop said:
Wow not this sh!t again.
Why is it not possible to have live pressure sensors? I thought they already did?
As jsf pointed out. They do.Why is it not possible to have live pressure sensors? I thought they already did?
What they didn't have is any rules around what was acceptable after they are fitted to the car. So they would have seen the low pressures, but not had any grounds to do anything about it.
Munter said:
Teddy Lop said:
Wow not this sh!t again.
Why is it not possible to have live pressure sensors? I thought they already did?
As jsf pointed out. They do.Why is it not possible to have live pressure sensors? I thought they already did?
What they didn't have is any rules around what was acceptable after they are fitted to the car. So they would have seen the low pressures, but not had any grounds to do anything about it.
Munter said:
As jsf pointed out. They do.
What they didn't have is any rules around what was acceptable after they are fitted to the car. So they would have seen the low pressures, but not had any grounds to do anything about it.
"While teams do have their own sensors and data to monitor tyre pressures, such systems are not reliable enough and the data not robust enough to be established evidence for rule breaches."What they didn't have is any rules around what was acceptable after they are fitted to the car. So they would have seen the low pressures, but not had any grounds to do anything about it.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-teams-face-ne...
angrymoby said:
Munter said:
As jsf pointed out. They do.
What they didn't have is any rules around what was acceptable after they are fitted to the car. So they would have seen the low pressures, but not had any grounds to do anything about it.
"While teams do have their own sensors and data to monitor tyre pressures, such systems are not reliable enough and the data not robust enough to be established evidence for rule breaches."What they didn't have is any rules around what was acceptable after they are fitted to the car. So they would have seen the low pressures, but not had any grounds to do anything about it.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-teams-face-ne...
angrymoby said:
Munter said:
As jsf pointed out. They do.
What they didn't have is any rules around what was acceptable after they are fitted to the car. So they would have seen the low pressures, but not had any grounds to do anything about it.
"While teams do have their own sensors and data to monitor tyre pressures, such systems are not reliable enough and the data not robust enough to be established evidence for rule breaches."What they didn't have is any rules around what was acceptable after they are fitted to the car. So they would have seen the low pressures, but not had any grounds to do anything about it.
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1-teams-face-ne...
To me that says that a controlled low pressure, i.e. one that a team might run that's outside starting parameters but still a performance benefit, might not be big enough for the sensors to pick up.
If Aston Martin and Red Bull have indeed done this on purpose, and I don't think that's what Pirelli are saying happened, then they've put lives at risks, and not just those of their own drivers.
Personally I still think it's a Pirelli problem and that the running conditions that the tyres experience.
They said there are no signs of fatigue on the damaged tyres, and that other drivers ran longer without failures. If there's no sign of damage, there's no way to say whether or not those other tyres were one lap away from failure by the time they stopped being used. Maybe it's a complication caused by some part of the track that only Stroll and Verstappen were using. I believe both like a "loose" balance, maybe that's a factor, but then Hamilton was also sliding his car around all over the place.
They need to find out exactly what made the tyre fail.
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