Official 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
swisstoni said:
angrymoby said:
puts that 'altruistic' call for a red flag from Red Bull's Jonathan Wheatley in a slightly different light ...if Red Bull have knowingly been playing with tyre pressures during races
I was just thinking the same thing. Hope it's just me being an old cynic.Frigging with the tyres (not just pressure but the actual gas used was alluded to) would be a really bad thing not far off when refuelling rigs were tampered with in the past.
I’d have assumed it was Nitrogen, but if they used a mix with something like helium, they could engineer the tyres to very slowly leak during the stint. What do we think?
Sandpit Steve said:
Yup. Anyone know what gas they’re supposed to use?
I’d have assumed it was Nitrogen, but if they used a mix with something like helium, they could engineer the tyres to very slowly leak during the stint. What do we think?
More likely a combination of gasses or a different gas, that lowers the pressure when running. Moisture content has already been mentioned.I’d have assumed it was Nitrogen, but if they used a mix with something like helium, they could engineer the tyres to very slowly leak during the stint. What do we think?
Also overheating the tyres with special blankets so the starting pressures look correct could mean the tyres drop pressure when cooled during running...
Although on Sky sports: "Pirelli made clear Red Bull and Aston Martin correctly followed the mandated starting parameters regarding minimum tyre pressure and maximum blanket temperature.", so gas consistancy then? Or is this Pirelli not wanting to be sued, or lost the contract/upset teams...
Byker28i said:
Sandpit Steve said:
Yup. Anyone know what gas they’re supposed to use?
I’d have assumed it was Nitrogen, but if they used a mix with something like helium, they could engineer the tyres to very slowly leak during the stint. What do we think?
More likely a combination of gasses or a different gas, that lowers the pressure when running. Moisture content has already been mentioned.I’d have assumed it was Nitrogen, but if they used a mix with something like helium, they could engineer the tyres to very slowly leak during the stint. What do we think?
Also overheating the tyres with special blankets so the starting pressures look correct could mean the tyres drop pressure when cooled during running...
Although on Sky sports: "Pirelli made clear Red Bull and Aston Martin correctly followed the mandated starting parameters regarding minimum tyre pressure and maximum blanket temperature.", so gas consistancy then? Or is this Pirelli not wanting to be sued, or lost the contract/upset teams...
But this is Red Bull. If any team was going to push this particular boundary, I'd say it was them. Aston Martin, less so.
Id think with the number of tyre failures we have seen in recent years, with all the big teams being effected, they would have to be mad to deliberately set them up to work around specifications, or it would need to offer such a significant advantage that it would be worth risking a few DNFs/ no points finishes to account for when it is likely to go wrong.
kiseca said:
Byker28i said:
Sandpit Steve said:
Yup. Anyone know what gas they’re supposed to use?
I’d have assumed it was Nitrogen, but if they used a mix with something like helium, they could engineer the tyres to very slowly leak during the stint. What do we think?
More likely a combination of gasses or a different gas, that lowers the pressure when running. Moisture content has already been mentioned.I’d have assumed it was Nitrogen, but if they used a mix with something like helium, they could engineer the tyres to very slowly leak during the stint. What do we think?
Also overheating the tyres with special blankets so the starting pressures look correct could mean the tyres drop pressure when cooled during running...
Although on Sky sports: "Pirelli made clear Red Bull and Aston Martin correctly followed the mandated starting parameters regarding minimum tyre pressure and maximum blanket temperature.", so gas consistancy then? Or is this Pirelli not wanting to be sued, or lost the contract/upset teams...
But this is Red Bull. If any team was going to push this particular boundary, I'd say it was them. Aston Martin, less so.
Clearly something was going on otherwise all the new checks wouldn't be implemented in such a rush. Sadly it looks like yet again the FIA are avoiding penalising any teams to avoid ruining the show.
RB Will said:
Id think with the number of tyre failures we have seen in recent years, with all the big teams being effected, they would have to be mad to deliberately set them up to work around specifications, or it would need to offer such a significant advantage that it would be worth risking a few DNFs/ no points finishes to account for when it is likely to go wrong.
how much advantage did Benetton have over race distance by running fuel rigs without filters, a second a stop- 2-3 times a race?It's really easy to manipulate tyre pressures by playing with gas composition.
When using nitrogen the first thing you do is evacuate the tyre with a vacuum pump, to pull every last bit of air and moisture out, you then fill it with a dry gas like nitrogen. That gives you a very stable pressure compared to air as temperatures fluctuate.
If you want a tyre to lose a lot of pressure when it cools, ram it full of water vapour.
Take a look at a modern F1 wheel, they have incredibly complex shapes in the area around the disk drum, to manage temperature. They are monitoring what they are doing to a high degree of accuracy with sensor packs in the wheels.
The race Pirelli tyres i have used have very detailed information sheets with performance curves on every aspect of the tyre structure, it's pretty clear these current F1 cars are generating a huge amount of load and how they are used needs monitoring and mandating more closely, because the teams will take the piss if you don't. That's the teams job by the way, push everything to the absolute limit whilst keeping within the rules set.
When using nitrogen the first thing you do is evacuate the tyre with a vacuum pump, to pull every last bit of air and moisture out, you then fill it with a dry gas like nitrogen. That gives you a very stable pressure compared to air as temperatures fluctuate.
If you want a tyre to lose a lot of pressure when it cools, ram it full of water vapour.
Take a look at a modern F1 wheel, they have incredibly complex shapes in the area around the disk drum, to manage temperature. They are monitoring what they are doing to a high degree of accuracy with sensor packs in the wheels.
The race Pirelli tyres i have used have very detailed information sheets with performance curves on every aspect of the tyre structure, it's pretty clear these current F1 cars are generating a huge amount of load and how they are used needs monitoring and mandating more closely, because the teams will take the piss if you don't. That's the teams job by the way, push everything to the absolute limit whilst keeping within the rules set.
jsf said:
It's really easy to manipulate tyre pressures by playing with gas composition.
When using nitrogen the first thing you do is evacuate the tyre with a vacuum pump, to pull every last bit of air and moisture out, you then fill it with a dry gas like nitrogen. That gives you a very stable pressure compared to air as temperatures fluctuate.
If you want a tyre to lose a lot of pressure when it cools, ram it full of water vapour.
Take a look at a modern F1 wheel, they have incredibly complex shapes in the area around the disk drum, to manage temperature. They are monitoring what they are doing to a high degree of accuracy with sensor packs in the wheels.
The race Pirelli tyres i have used have very detailed information sheets with performance curves on every aspect of the tyre structure, it's pretty clear these current F1 cars are generating a huge amount of load and how they are used needs monitoring and mandating more closely, because the teams will take the piss if you don't. That's the teams job by the way, push everything to the absolute limit whilst keeping within the rules set.
Is there a control temperature when they fill and test and/or prescribed gas mix?When using nitrogen the first thing you do is evacuate the tyre with a vacuum pump, to pull every last bit of air and moisture out, you then fill it with a dry gas like nitrogen. That gives you a very stable pressure compared to air as temperatures fluctuate.
If you want a tyre to lose a lot of pressure when it cools, ram it full of water vapour.
Take a look at a modern F1 wheel, they have incredibly complex shapes in the area around the disk drum, to manage temperature. They are monitoring what they are doing to a high degree of accuracy with sensor packs in the wheels.
The race Pirelli tyres i have used have very detailed information sheets with performance curves on every aspect of the tyre structure, it's pretty clear these current F1 cars are generating a huge amount of load and how they are used needs monitoring and mandating more closely, because the teams will take the piss if you don't. That's the teams job by the way, push everything to the absolute limit whilst keeping within the rules set.
If they're able to fill and test with any mix and at whatever temperature then the whole idea of prescribed pressure is a nonsense - they can easily calculate and end up at any pressure within quite a significant range if they have that level of freedom.
The rules are.
12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
jsf said:
The rules are.
12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
New rules or old rules ?12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
Exige77 said:
jsf said:
The rules are.
12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
New rules or old rules ?12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
jsf said:
The rules are.
12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
Non of those are a barrier to more or less whatever pressure they want to end up with in the race 12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
I would normally say that the FIA need the teams to bend/undermine the rules in order for them to figure out how to better regulate... But in this instance I can't understand why Pirelli haven't pro-actively suggested a tightening of the regs..? They will know the regs as they stand are hopeless and surely don't want the impression that their tyres fail even under prescribed use.
In fact it's such a gaping and obvious weak spot in the regs, it suggests those with influence have been for whatever reason quite happy to allow it to remain that way.
jsf said:
It's really easy to manipulate tyre pressures by playing with gas composition.
When using nitrogen the first thing you do is evacuate the tyre with a vacuum pump, to pull every last bit of air and moisture out, you then fill it with a dry gas like nitrogen. That gives you a very stable pressure compared to air as temperatures fluctuate.
If you want a tyre to lose a lot of pressure when it cools, ram it full of water vapour.
Take a look at a modern F1 wheel, they have incredibly complex shapes in the area around the disk drum, to manage temperature. They are monitoring what they are doing to a high degree of accuracy with sensor packs in the wheels.
The race Pirelli tyres i have used have very detailed information sheets with performance curves on every aspect of the tyre structure, it's pretty clear these current F1 cars are generating a huge amount of load and how they are used needs monitoring and mandating more closely, because the teams will take the piss if you don't. That's the teams job by the way, push everything to the absolute limit whilst keeping within the rules set.
Very useful information as always. When using nitrogen the first thing you do is evacuate the tyre with a vacuum pump, to pull every last bit of air and moisture out, you then fill it with a dry gas like nitrogen. That gives you a very stable pressure compared to air as temperatures fluctuate.
If you want a tyre to lose a lot of pressure when it cools, ram it full of water vapour.
Take a look at a modern F1 wheel, they have incredibly complex shapes in the area around the disk drum, to manage temperature. They are monitoring what they are doing to a high degree of accuracy with sensor packs in the wheels.
The race Pirelli tyres i have used have very detailed information sheets with performance curves on every aspect of the tyre structure, it's pretty clear these current F1 cars are generating a huge amount of load and how they are used needs monitoring and mandating more closely, because the teams will take the piss if you don't. That's the teams job by the way, push everything to the absolute limit whilst keeping within the rules set.
So you fill the tyres with hot and humid air, just before you have to measure the pressure, and they immediately start to drop off as the air cools - in which case measuring them at the end of the session, as proposed, should fix the issue.
Now wait for a certain team, to try and find a way to come back to the pits at the end of the race with four punctures. Some strategically-placed debris, perhaps?
The wet air plan occurred to me too, when I read the regulations. I wonder if the teams are really doing it.
I was also wondering whether you couldn’t engineer a ‘thermally leaky’ valve. I.e. if you make your valve out of two or more materials that expand at different rates, you could potentially engineer one that leaks air (slowly) when at tyre-warmer temperature but as the temp/pressure falls, it stops leaking.
I was also wondering whether you couldn’t engineer a ‘thermally leaky’ valve. I.e. if you make your valve out of two or more materials that expand at different rates, you could potentially engineer one that leaks air (slowly) when at tyre-warmer temperature but as the temp/pressure falls, it stops leaking.
TheDeuce said:
jsf said:
The rules are.
12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
Non of those are a barrier to more or less whatever pressure they want to end up with in the race 12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
I would normally say that the FIA need the teams to bend/undermine the rules in order for them to figure out how to better regulate... But in this instance I can't understand why Pirelli haven't pro-actively suggested a tightening of the regs..? They will know the regs as they stand are hopeless and surely don't want the impression that their tyres fail even under prescribed use.
In fact it's such a gaping and obvious weak spot in the regs, it suggests those with influence have been for whatever reason quite happy to allow it to remain that way.
I'm pretty sure that even without all the changes being suggested that rule 12.7 isn't the only thing that is controlling the starting condition of the tyres today.
jsf said:
The rules are.
12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
Surely air composition is oxygen, nitrogen and this lot from a wiki :-12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
Nitrogen N2 780,840 78.084
Oxygen O2 209,460 20.946
Argon Ar 9,340 0.9340
Carbon dioxide
(December, 2020)(C)[13] CO
2 415.00 0.041500
Neon Ne 18.18 0.001818
Helium He 5.24 0.000524
Methane CH4 1.87 0.000187
Krypton Kr 1.14 0.000114
Not included in above dry atmosphere:
Water vapor(D) H2O 0–30,000(D) 0–3%(E)
So surely if they tamper with it they are breaking rule 12.7.1 ?
kiseca said:
TheDeuce said:
jsf said:
The rules are.
12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
Non of those are a barrier to more or less whatever pressure they want to end up with in the race 12.7 Treatment of tyres
12.7.1 Tyres may only be inflated with air or nitrogen.
12.7.2 Any process the intent of which is to reduce the amount of moisture in the tyre and/or in its inflation gas is forbidden.
12.7.3 The only permitted type of tyre heating devices are blankets which use resistive heating elements. The heating elements may only act upon the outer tyre surface.
So that's a great big DOH!
A rule set in the olden days where we tried to dry the air in the tyre, not make it wetter.
I would normally say that the FIA need the teams to bend/undermine the rules in order for them to figure out how to better regulate... But in this instance I can't understand why Pirelli haven't pro-actively suggested a tightening of the regs..? They will know the regs as they stand are hopeless and surely don't want the impression that their tyres fail even under prescribed use.
In fact it's such a gaping and obvious weak spot in the regs, it suggests those with influence have been for whatever reason quite happy to allow it to remain that way.
I'm pretty sure that even without all the changes being suggested that rule 12.7 isn't the only thing that is controlling the starting condition of the tyres today.
Or if such 'additional' rules did exist, it's odd none of the media surrounding this topic haven't quoted them and also odd that the FIA regs don't point to them.
I'd be interested to know for sure though.
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