Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?

[andburg]

Muzzer79 said:

andburg said:

Muzzer79 said:

andburg said:

If the FIA are serious about getting women through to the highest level they need to create a career path that’s allows power steering the same way they allow drivers to run different brake pressure preferences. The next Jamie level talent might be bigger and physically able to deal with the weight, but they might not.

I am a pro-women driver person but I believe it’s up to women to adapt to the cars, not for the cars to adapt to the women.

There are physiological difference though, at some point there will be a limit point which men can get past and women can't. That limit point will be different for every woman so we need to get more women involved. The difficult part is finding where this limit is and then allowing just enough assist for women to have an even playing field.

If the physiological differences are that significant (and I would dispute that they are) then the only option is to seperate the sport and have a championship for men and one for women, like in other sports such as rowing or cycling.

But I don't think this is the case for motorsport. To drive an F1 car means attaining a level of fitness, beyond which skill is the deciding factor. There's no reason why women can't attain that level of fitness and no reason to suggest that the level of fitness required will increase over time.

That's different to cycling or rowing where the physiological factors are the deciding ones in succeeding.

completely get that, every driver has different abilities and the level of assist required will vary so the fairest way is absolutely to have no assists.

The odds of the handful of women at motorsport relative to men being that 0.01% absolute elite are so small that at this stage introducing levelling would potentially just be unfair to men. It's entirely possible the women with the potential to compete just haven't got involved in motorsport. The problem is that unless young women see role models is much harder to get them involved and find those potential elites.

Motorsport is in the chicken and egg world.

The governing bodies may feel they need to introduce measures that falsely level the playing field at high profile series like F1 and Indy in order to get enough women involved in grassroots. Once that happens we will see women regularly beating men in the junior categories who potentially hit a glass ceiling and find that limit.

[CT05 Nose Cone]

andburg said:

Muzzer79 said:

andburg said:

Muzzer79 said:

andburg said:

If the FIA are serious about getting women through to the highest level they need to create a career path that’s allows power steering the same way they allow drivers to run different brake pressure preferences. The next Jamie level talent might be bigger and physically able to deal with the weight, but they might not.

I am a pro-women driver person but I believe it’s up to women to adapt to the cars, not for the cars to adapt to the women.

There are physiological difference though, at some point there will be a limit point which men can get past and women can't. That limit point will be different for every woman so we need to get more women involved. The difficult part is finding where this limit is and then allowing just enough assist for women to have an even playing field.

If the physiological differences are that significant (and I would dispute that they are) then the only option is to seperate the sport and have a championship for men and one for women, like in other sports such as rowing or cycling.

But I don't think this is the case for motorsport. To drive an F1 car means attaining a level of fitness, beyond which skill is the deciding factor. There's no reason why women can't attain that level of fitness and no reason to suggest that the level of fitness required will increase over time.

That's different to cycling or rowing where the physiological factors are the deciding ones in succeeding.

completely get that, every driver has different abilities and the level of assist required will vary so the fairest way is absolutely to have no assists.

The odds of the handful of women at motorsport relative to men being that 0.01% absolute elite are so small that at this stage introducing levelling would potentially just be unfair to men. It's entirely possible the women with the potential to compete just haven't got involved in motorsport. The problem is that unless young women see role models is much harder to get them involved and find those potential elites.

Motorsport is in the chicken and egg world.

The governing bodies may feel they need to introduce measures that falsely level the playing field at high profile series like F1 and Indy in order to get enough women involved in grassroots. Once that happens we will see women regularly beating men in the junior categories who potentially hit a glass ceiling and find that limit.

Another issue is that men vary grately in terms of physiology as well. By the same logic you could argue Yuki Tsunoda should be able to run with more assists, since he's shorter and lighter than other drivers on the grid.

[andyA700]

CT05 Nose Cone said:

andburg said:

Muzzer79 said:

andburg said:

Muzzer79 said:

andburg said:

If the FIA are serious about getting women through to the highest level they need to create a career path that’s allows power steering the same way they allow drivers to run different brake pressure preferences. The next Jamie level talent might be bigger and physically able to deal with the weight, but they might not.

I am a pro-women driver person but I believe it’s up to women to adapt to the cars, not for the cars to adapt to the women.

There are physiological difference though, at some point there will be a limit point which men can get past and women can't. That limit point will be different for every woman so we need to get more women involved. The difficult part is finding where this limit is and then allowing just enough assist for women to have an even playing field.

If the physiological differences are that significant (and I would dispute that they are) then the only option is to seperate the sport and have a championship for men and one for women, like in other sports such as rowing or cycling.

But I don't think this is the case for motorsport. To drive an F1 car means attaining a level of fitness, beyond which skill is the deciding factor. There's no reason why women can't attain that level of fitness and no reason to suggest that the level of fitness required will increase over time.

That's different to cycling or rowing where the physiological factors are the deciding ones in succeeding.

completely get that, every driver has different abilities and the level of assist required will vary so the fairest way is absolutely to have no assists.

The odds of the handful of women at motorsport relative to men being that 0.01% absolute elite are so small that at this stage introducing levelling would potentially just be unfair to men. It's entirely possible the women with the potential to compete just haven't got involved in motorsport. The problem is that unless young women see role models is much harder to get them involved and find those potential elites.

Motorsport is in the chicken and egg world.

The governing bodies may feel they need to introduce measures that falsely level the playing field at high profile series like F1 and Indy in order to get enough women involved in grassroots. Once that happens we will see women regularly beating men in the junior categories who potentially hit a glass ceiling and find that limit.

Another issue is that men vary grately in terms of physiology as well. By the same logic you could argue Yuki Tsunoda should be able to run with more assists, since he's shorter and lighter than other drivers on the grid.

I believe that Yuki finished 3rd in his first sason in F2, whereas the only woman to have competed in F2, Tatiana Calderon had a best placing of 11th and finished 22nd in the championship in 2019, with zero points scored.
There is a huge difference in physiology between the fittest/best women and their male counterparts.

[anonymous-user]

CT05 Nose Cone said:

andburg said:

Muzzer79 said:

andburg said:

Muzzer79 said:

andburg said:

If the FIA are serious about getting women through to the highest level they need to create a career path that’s allows power steering the same way they allow drivers to run different brake pressure preferences. The next Jamie level talent might be bigger and physically able to deal with the weight, but they might not.

I am a pro-women driver person but I believe it’s up to women to adapt to the cars, not for the cars to adapt to the women.

There are physiological difference though, at some point there will be a limit point which men can get past and women can't. That limit point will be different for every woman so we need to get more women involved. The difficult part is finding where this limit is and then allowing just enough assist for women to have an even playing field.

If the physiological differences are that significant (and I would dispute that they are) then the only option is to seperate the sport and have a championship for men and one for women, like in other sports such as rowing or cycling.

But I don't think this is the case for motorsport. To drive an F1 car means attaining a level of fitness, beyond which skill is the deciding factor. There's no reason why women can't attain that level of fitness and no reason to suggest that the level of fitness required will increase over time.

That's different to cycling or rowing where the physiological factors are the deciding ones in succeeding.

completely get that, every driver has different abilities and the level of assist required will vary so the fairest way is absolutely to have no assists.

The odds of the handful of women at motorsport relative to men being that 0.01% absolute elite are so small that at this stage introducing levelling would potentially just be unfair to men. It's entirely possible the women with the potential to compete just haven't got involved in motorsport. The problem is that unless young women see role models is much harder to get them involved and find those potential elites.

Motorsport is in the chicken and egg world.

The governing bodies may feel they need to introduce measures that falsely level the playing field at high profile series like F1 and Indy in order to get enough women involved in grassroots. Once that happens we will see women regularly beating men in the junior categories who potentially hit a glass ceiling and find that limit.

Another issue is that men vary grately in terms of physiology as well. By the same logic you could argue Yuki Tsunoda should be able to run with more assists, since he's shorter and lighter than other drivers on the grid.

By the same logic Yuki could chop off his "man bits" and compete in W Series


Oh hang on....

[Burrow01]

andyA700 said:

I believe that Yuki finished 3rd in his first sason in F2, whereas the only woman to have competed in F2, Tatiana Calderon had a best placing of 11th and finished 22nd in the championship in 2019, with zero points scored.
There is a huge difference in physiology between the fittest/best women and their male counterparts.

Presumably the male driver who can 21st was also a weakling? Maybe Yuki is just a better driver / had a better car / was in a better team rather than the difference being his strength and fitness.

[Sandpit Steve]

andyA700 said:

I believe that Yuki finished 3rd in his first sason in F2, whereas the only woman to have competed in F2, Tatiana Calderon had a best placing of 11th and finished 22nd in the championship in 2019, with zero points scored.
There is a huge difference in physiology between the fittest/best women and their male counterparts.

Tatiana also did an interview in which she said that the F2 car specifically, with no power steering, was a pig to drive in terms of physical effort compared to both F1 and F3 cars she’d driven.

It is potentially an issue, although the new 2024 F2 car did promise lighter steering loads, but I’ve not seen any feedback from the current F2 drivers on this specific point.

Yuki is an Olympic-level freak of a human, he’s only 54kg. That’s light for a woman who isn’t an athlete.

[ZX10R NIN]

Burrow01 said:

Presumably the male driver who can 21st was also a weakling? Maybe Yuki is just a better driver / had a better car / was in a better team rather than the difference being his strength and fitness.

Nor a weakling but he didn't possess the mental & physical skills to finish 20th over the course of a season.

The reason there hasn't been a woman in F1 is simply because there's not 1 who's good enough,

The first one to make it won't lack for sponsership, just look at Danica & the career she carved out for herself.

The will is there but the talent hasn't arrived yet.

[andyA700]

ZX10R NIN said:

Burrow01 said:

Presumably the male driver who can 21st was also a weakling? Maybe Yuki is just a better driver / had a better car / was in a better team rather than the difference being his strength and fitness.

Nor a weakling but he didn't possess the mental & physical skills to finish 20th over the course of a season.

The reason there hasn't been a woman in F1 is simply because there's not 1 who's good enough,

The first one to make it won't lack for sponsership, just look at Danica & the career she carved out for herself.

The will is there but the talent hasn't arrived yet.

Males have faster reaction times to women, they also have a far better aerobic capacity and they are stronger. This isn't about marginal gains, it is about 10% difference in physiology. Of course, if you don't want to look at the science, then you can have these playground shouting matches all day long.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC31983...

[ZX10R NIN]

andyA700 said:

Males have faster reaction times to women, they also have a far better aerobic capacity and they are stronger. This isn't about marginal gains, it is about 10% difference in physiology. Of course, if you don't want to look at the science, then you can have these playground shouting matches all day long.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC31983...

Not disagreeing, I'm saying if a woman gets there (even to F3/2) they won't lack for financial support.

[Leithen]

andyA700 said:

Males have faster reaction times to women, they also have a far better aerobic capacity and they are stronger. This isn't about marginal gains, it is about 10% difference in physiology. Of course, if you don't want to look at the science, then you can have these playground shouting matches all day long.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC31983...

Which is why their success amongst male peers ought to be doubly celebrated.

[andyA700]

ZX10R NIN said:

andyA700 said:

Males have faster reaction times to women, they also have a far better aerobic capacity and they are stronger. This isn't about marginal gains, it is about 10% difference in physiology. Of course, if you don't want to look at the science, then you can have these playground shouting matches all day long.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC31983...

Not disagreeing, I'm saying if a woman gets there (even to F3/2) they won't lack for financial support.

I totally agree.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

I realise this "debate" has probably gone around in circles at least 20 times based upon the number of pages in it, but hey, here goes anyway.

There is absolutely no physical reason a woman could not be an F1 driver. The arguments about strength etc are in my eyes nonsensical, whilst blokes do have an advantage, we are not talking about a sport where ultimate physical size and strength matters. F1 drivers need to be fit and they need strength and conditioning to be able to deal with it, but none of that is beyond anyone who trains for it their whole lives.

When we think about the few women who have made it to F1, then the one who stands out is of course Lella Lombardi. She was driving in an era when the cars were much physically harder than they are today and yet did well. Desiree Wilson was another early female F1 driver and whilst she never managed to get into F1 fully, she did win a non-championship race in the days of the FISA-FOCA wars that mucked things up for a while with races being sanctioned and non-sanctioned.

Women don't get to F1 for a lot of reasons and none of them have anything to do with ability or physicality. Motorsport is a very privileged and very difficult world to enter as a driver of any kind. Society still conditions kids into gender specific roles as well, so fewer girls want to get into it in the first place, even if they do have the means, talent and drive.

Then we get into the reality of motorsport, where traditionally, women haven't been allowed the opportunity to progress as easily as men. Again, that limits the number of people coming through.

Whilst things are changing and things are far improved, it takes a generation for these changes to make themselves felt. If we look at the current driving pool, then we are looking back 20 years to when they started and have to take into account the conditions then, rather than they are today.

I've seen a similar trajectory in my industry. Airlines and flying in general, were very much dominated by male pilots and still are, but it is slowly changing, or at least, is here in Europe and the US. Iremember BA having "project 10" back in the late 90's/early 00's which was an attempt to get just 10% of the pilot workforce to be women. At the time, world-wide, it was less than 1%...

Discussions about physical prowess or physiology are always red herrings and are unfortunately, usually based in a subconscious bias to try and justify the situation. It isn't good enough that not a single top line F1 driver is a woman. It isn't good enough that in all categories and fields of motorsport, then women are scarcely represented.

The best thing we can all do, is not to get defensive, but simply acknowledge that unpleasant fact and then try to work out how we can make a difference in our little world.

I do it, by giving my daughter the opportunity to enjoy cars, bikes and all things petrolhead. She loves cars and is becoming very useful around the garage and has her own projects. She doesn't want to be a racing driver, but that isn't because she doesn't think it is possible, she just isn't that bothered about racing anything. She loves her sailing, but dislikes racing for example. No problem, I'm not going to force her into something she doesn't want to do, but the choice is hers and that's where we can make a difference.

[TwentyFive]

Biggles Flies Undone said:

I've seen a similar trajectory in my industry. Airlines and flying in general, were very much dominated by male pilots and still are, but it is slowly changing, or at least, is here in Europe and the US. Iremember BA having "project 10" back in the late 90's/early 00's which was an attempt to get just 10% of the pilot workforce to be women. At the time, world-wide, it was less than 1%...

Why? Never understood this business argument. In an industry where skill set is vital, surely you'd want the best people at the controls regardless of what is between their legs. I don't care who flies me to JFK, so long as it gets there safely having had the best possible person for the job flying the thing. This employing people to meet a gender quota often just box ticks at the expense of lowering overall workforce quality. Its pointless. I'd agree that a levelling up quota may be needed in an industry where employment of a certain gender was previously not allowed, or ringfenced, but that just doesn't apply to airlines, motor racing, or the majority of industries out there.

There is too much focus on attaining equality of outcome when in reality the line should be drawn at equality of opportunity.

I don't see work schemes to employ more men into female dominated industry? Is that because its just accepted that more women want to do those roles than men? Or is it because equality of opportunity to apply for that role already exists? Whichever it is, it makes little sense that we see numerous campaigns focused on employing more women in male industries, yet we can only speculate why never see such recruitment drives being applied in the opposite direction to increase male employment in female dominated industries.

Biggles Flies Undone said:

It isn't good enough that not a single top line F1 driver is a woman. It isn't good enough that in all categories and fields of motorsport, then women are scarcely represented.

The best thing we can all do, is not to get defensive, but simply acknowledge that unpleasant fact

Except that it's not a fact. F1 should be about the best drivers in the world racing at the top table (yes I know its a billionaires playground so that clearly isn't entirely true) but it should be as close to a meritocracy from a sporting ability perspective as possible. Given motorsport is one of the few sports without significant segregation, I think the single driver pool is a sign of reasonable sporting equality, where lap time (and budget) is key, not gender.

I raced with (and was beaten by) very talented women in karting back in the day, no qualms with that as they simply did a better job with no leg up needed. It's when the money becomes the driving factor that the issues start, and there is even a reasonable business argument to suggest that in the modern world, a talented woman would attract more significant funding more than a man could if they can show enough ability coming through. The fact it hasn't happened is, I suspect, because of a lack of interest rather than a lack of opportunity. There are no true barriers to entry for any girl, other than parental persuasion and stereotypical upbringing.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

TwentyFive said:

Biggles Flies Undone said:

I've seen a similar trajectory in my industry. Airlines and flying in general, were very much dominated by male pilots and still are, but it is slowly changing, or at least, is here in Europe and the US. Iremember BA having "project 10" back in the late 90's/early 00's which was an attempt to get just 10% of the pilot workforce to be women. At the time, world-wide, it was less than 1%...

Why? Never understood this business argument. In an industry where skill set is vital, surely you'd want the best people at the controls regardless of what is between their legs. I don't care who flies me to JFK, so long as it gets there safely having had the best possible person for the job flying the thing. This employing people to meet a gender quota often just box ticks at the expense of lowering overall workforce quality. Its pointless. I'd agree that a levelling up quota may be needed in an industry where employment of a certain gender was previously not allowed, or ringfenced, but that just doesn't apply to airlines, motor racing, or the majority of industries out there.

There is too much focus on attaining equality of outcome when in reality the line should be drawn at equality of opportunity.

I don't see work schemes to employ more men into female dominated industry? Is that because its just accepted that more women want to do those roles than men? Or is it because equality of opportunity to apply for that role already exists? Whichever it is, it makes little sense that we see numerous campaigns focused on employing more women in male industries, yet we can only speculate why never see such recruitment drives being applied in the opposite direction to increase male employment in female dominated industries.

Biggles Flies Undone said:

It isn't good enough that not a single top line F1 driver is a woman. It isn't good enough that in all categories and fields of motorsport, then women are scarcely represented.

The best thing we can all do, is not to get defensive, but simply acknowledge that unpleasant fact

Except that it's not a fact. F1 should be about the best drivers in the world racing at the top table (yes I know its a billionaires playground so that clearly isn't entirely true) but it should be as close to a meritocracy from a sporting ability perspective as possible. Given motorsport is one of the few sports without significant segregation, I think the single driver pool is a sign of reasonable sporting equality, where lap time (and budget) is key, not gender.

I raced with (and was beaten by) very talented women in karting back in the day, no qualms with that as they simply did a better job with no leg up needed. It's when the money becomes the driving factor that the issues start, and there is even a reasonable business argument to suggest that in the modern world, a talented woman would attract more significant funding more than a man could if they can show enough ability coming through. The fact it hasn't happened is, I suspect, because of a lack of interest rather than a lack of opportunity. There are no true barriers to entry for any girl, other than parental persuasion and stereotypical upbringing.

Sexism is a weird thing. It is rarely overt, but it is still a massive barrier.

Going to the point about flying, for most of the time that aviation has existed, then it was seen as a career for men. Initially, overtly and then later as society started to change (though attitudes often lag behind) much more covertly.

Think about it this way. Our world view is often formed very early on. If as a kid you are given nothing but dolls, pink clothes and all the people around you have very gender specific roles (mum is a housewife, Dad is the breadwinner and has the "big job" in the house) then that very quickly becomes the norm and expectation in what a young girl will expect in life.

Of course things are changing on that front and it is great to see, but we are still a long way eliminating the idea that people push boys and girls into roles or directions based upon sex.

This isn't to criticise anyone, it is just what still happens and if we are all completely honest with ourselves, we all do it sometimes. I know I do, I just know to catch it immediately and not act on it.

If we think back to the early days of aviation, then the ATA in WW2 proved it was perfectly fine for women to operate heavy bombers and fly anything that the RAF had to hand, but they were never allowed to be operational and once the war was over, they were generally sidelined. There is only one reason for this, pure and simple sexism. That attitude continued long after and in some ways, elements of it still do, especially in other parts of the world.

I get that PH is maybe not the ideal place to be discussing things like this, as let's face it, it is a site with a massive majority of male users, but that in itself is pretty telling. Why is that?

[CT05 Nose Cone]

Biggles Flies Undone said:

If we think back to the early days of aviation, then the ATA in WW2 proved it was perfectly fine for women to operate heavy bombers and fly anything that the RAF had to hand, but they were never allowed to be operational and once the war was over, they were generally sidelined. There is only one reason for this, pure and simple sexism. That attitude continued long after and in some ways, elements of it still do, especially in other parts of the world

Or to look at it another way, the men were and indeed still are expected to fight and die in the war, the women weren't.

[trackdemon]

It's gone round in circles because folks keep posting rubbish, perpetuating the cycle. It's been proven multiple times that women do have a biological disadvantage (albeit small and variable person to person). It's been acknowledged multiple times that were a women to be F1 grade as a driver she'd be marketing gold ergo she'd have an advantage to getting a seat... the fact nobody has is because nobody has yet shown themselves to be at the necessary level. Then folks post nonsense about women not being 'allowed' the opportunity to progress, which again, is nonsense based on... well you tell me. Motorsport is pretty straightforward - if you're fast enough and have the budget, you'll progress. The end. Throwing around accusations about subconscious bias towards anyone who dares to disagree with your opinion is disrespectful and presumptuous.

"It isn't good enough that not a single top line F1 driver is a woman. It isn't good enough that in all categories and fields of motorsport, the women are scarcely represented"

Why isn't it good enough? Have you considered that perhaps many multiples more men want to get into motorsport and the demographic is merely a reflection of that? If a person wants to, is good enough and has enough backing they'll make it. Doesn't matter what gender/colour/creed they happen to be. Why the race to push one above the other?

[trackdemon]

Biggles Flies Undone said:

I get that PH is maybe not the ideal place to be discussing things like this, as let's face it, it is a site with a massive majority of male users, but that in itself is pretty telling. Why is that?

Jesus christ Oh I dunno, maybe it's because more blokes are interested in cars than women? Is that such a difficult concept to grasp? For balance, are you going to jump onto mumsnet and ask why that site is mostly full of women whilst saying it's wrong in this day and age that *insert activity of choice* is so female dominated and more should be done to get men (who'd by the way previously been denied the chance) into it?

[Biggles Flies Undone]

CT05 Nose Cone said:

Biggles Flies Undone said:

If we think back to the early days of aviation, then the ATA in WW2 proved it was perfectly fine for women to operate heavy bombers and fly anything that the RAF had to hand, but they were never allowed to be operational and once the war was over, they were generally sidelined. There is only one reason for this, pure and simple sexism. That attitude continued long after and in some ways, elements of it still do, especially in other parts of the world

Or to look at it another way, the men were and indeed still are expected to fight and die in the war, the women weren't.

They weren't given the choice about whether they could serve on the front lines, therefore the point is somewhat moot. However, going back to the ATA as an example, then a number of them did die during the war. Around 10% in fact.

In other countries, women were allowed or were expected to serve on the front lines. The USSR had a squadron of female pilots and they were very effective indeed.

[number2]

Biggles Flies Undone said:

There is absolutely no physical reason a woman could not be an F1 driver. The arguments about strength etc are in my eyes nonsensical, whilst blokes do have an advantage, we are not talking about a sport where ultimate physical size and strength matters. F1 drivers need to be fit and they need strength and conditioning to be able to deal with it, but none of that is beyond anyone who trains for it their whole lives.

This is it.

Yes, we need role models for all, and so we need to make sure opportunities are available for all (although see last point). To get role models in the first place we might to create a separate series or similar... and that's okay.

There's not much more to it.

There's still the cost barrier which prevents nearly everyone from racing of course .

[Biggles Flies Undone]

trackdemon said:

Biggles Flies Undone said:

I get that PH is maybe not the ideal place to be discussing things like this, as let's face it, it is a site with a massive majority of male users, but that in itself is pretty telling. Why is that?

Jesus christ Oh I dunno, maybe it's because more blokes are interested in cars than women? Is that such a difficult concept to grasp? For balance, are you going to jump onto mumsnet and ask why that site is mostly full of women whilst saying it's wrong in this day and age that *insert activity of choice* is so female dominated and more should be done to get men (who'd by the way previously been denied the chance) into it?

Oh dear, I appear to have triggered you somewhat. That wasn't my intention, but I am curious to understand why you find this so challenging?

My point is that we do still push boys and girls down different paths from a very early age, hence the gendered split in many things. I'd be interested in knowing why you think cars or bikes are massively more "blokey" and what it is that causes that? If you had a sister for example, are they into cars? If not, why not?