Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?
Discussion
Biggles Flies Undone said:
Oh dear, I appear to have triggered you somewhat. That wasn't my intention, but I am curious to understand why you find this so challenging?
My point is that we do still push boys and girls down different paths from a very early age, hence the gendered split in many things. I'd be interested in knowing why you think cars or bikes are massively more "blokey" and what it is that causes that? If you had a sister for example, are they into cars? If not, why not?
My point is that we do still push boys and girls down different paths from a very early age, hence the gendered split in many things. I'd be interested in knowing why you think cars or bikes are massively more "blokey" and what it is that causes that? If you had a sister for example, are they into cars? If not, why not?
Look at your posting history here today, if anyone is triggered (to borrow the tiresome buzzword of the moment) then it most certainly looks like something has prompted you to jump on this particular bandwagon. Further demonstrated by your last comment. Why do you find it so challenging that *most* girls and boys gravitate to different interests? If a girl likes horseriding and a lad likes go karting, what exactly is wrong with that? 
trackdemon said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
Oh dear, I appear to have triggered you somewhat. That wasn't my intention, but I am curious to understand why you find this so challenging?
My point is that we do still push boys and girls down different paths from a very early age, hence the gendered split in many things. I'd be interested in knowing why you think cars or bikes are massively more "blokey" and what it is that causes that? If you had a sister for example, are they into cars? If not, why not?
My point is that we do still push boys and girls down different paths from a very early age, hence the gendered split in many things. I'd be interested in knowing why you think cars or bikes are massively more "blokey" and what it is that causes that? If you had a sister for example, are they into cars? If not, why not?
Look at your posting history here today, if anyone is triggered (to borrow the tiresome buzzword of the moment) then it most certainly looks like something has prompted you to jump on this particular bandwagon. Further demonstrated by your last comment. Why do you find it so challenging that *most* girls and boys gravitate to different interests? If a girl likes horseriding and a lad likes go karting, what exactly is wrong with that? There are a myriad of reason why women and massively underrepresented in motorsport and it is much more of a societal thing, but all the comments about women not being physically able is absolute codswallop.
One reason I posted here about it, is that I'm currently having to deal with how to keep a bunch of 11 and 12 year olds engaged in rugby. I've been coaching a mixed group since they were 6 and they have grown up playing together. It has been great and there weren't any differences between them at all. However, obviously things change, so from U12 onwards, mixed, full contact rugby isn't allowed by the RFU, so all of a sudden, all of these young girls who absolutely loved getting stuck in and playing some seriously good rugby, suddenly couldn't. As there simply aren't enough of them, then we are in the awful situation of not being able to field a team or even have enough for a proper training squad.
Even when combining teams across the area, we are really struggling to get enough girls together to get a critical mass to play. For those (like my daughter) who love the game, it is heartbreaking and I can see their confidence get knocked, as suddenly they are being told they can't do something because they are a girl.
It has really brought home to me, just how difficult it is to keep girls involved in sport like that, as without anyone being mean, it is simply structured in a way that makes it almost impossible to keep engagement.
OK, it is a team sport, so different to motorsport, but many of the same issues are present there too.
Motor racing should be a sport where men and women can and should compete on a level playing field. We are a very long way away from that and when you see this sort of discussion that centres around physicality etc, then you start to understand why. Your defensiveness and immediate reaction to pour scorn and scoff at it, is also a tell as to why it is so hard. You don't appear to be willing to even acknowledge that there is a issue.
Biggles Flies Undone said:
CT05 Nose Cone said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
If we think back to the early days of aviation, then the ATA in WW2 proved it was perfectly fine for women to operate heavy bombers and fly anything that the RAF had to hand, but they were never allowed to be operational and once the war was over, they were generally sidelined. There is only one reason for this, pure and simple sexism. That attitude continued long after and in some ways, elements of it still do, especially in other parts of the world
Or to look at it another way, the men were and indeed still are expected to fight and die in the war, the women weren't.In other countries, women were allowed or were expected to serve on the front lines. The USSR had a squadron of female pilots and they were very effective indeed.
TwentyFive said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
I've seen a similar trajectory in my industry. Airlines and flying in general, were very much dominated by male pilots and still are, but it is slowly changing, or at least, is here in Europe and the US. Iremember BA having "project 10" back in the late 90's/early 00's which was an attempt to get just 10% of the pilot workforce to be women. At the time, world-wide, it was less than 1%...
Why? Never understood this business argument. In an industry where skill set is vital, surely you'd want the best people at the controls regardless of what is between their legs. I don't care who flies me to JFK, so long as it gets there safely having had the best possible person for the job flying the thing. This employing people to meet a gender quota often just box ticks at the expense of lowering overall workforce quality. Its pointless. If the standard were lowered for female pilots to gain employment then you would have a point, but it isn't so to say that it's lowering the overall workforce quality to have females flying is just incorrect.
We've all seen examples of positive sexism - the dear old BBC are great for this
- but it's actually quite rare in the field of the elite. Like pilots.I also don't get the argument that having one job dominated by one sex is no bad thing. We need variety of views and attitudes in order to create success and advance. I've ran teams of all men and teams of all women and both were utter nightmares, for different reasons. A balanced workforce always creates the best team.
Biggles Flies Undone said:
When we think about the few women who have made it to F1, then the one who stands out is of course Lella Lombardi. She was driving in an era when the cars were much physically harder than they are today and yet did well.
Sorry, but this is nonsense. The mid 70's F1 cars Lella drove are a piece of piss to drive. They have very little grip and downforce and are very light.They were dangerous things and took bravery to drive them quickly on the period circuits, but they were much less physical than the cars Jamie has been driving, especially the recent indycar.
Jamie herself said if she was to progress with indycar she needs to build strength as she couldn't cope in the highest load areas during her test.
If she puts the effort in, she should be able to do it, but she needs to work hard in the gym now.
I used to codrive a female top rally driver, she was quite petite, but did she have some serious arm strength, she amazed me when she managed to bring the car through the longest stage of a tough gravel rally with failed power steering. If you've ever tried driving a car equipped with hydraulic PS when the pump stops working you should appreciate how difficult that is.
She was a very fit around athlete, played on a mixed soccer team and played ice hockey in winter.
So it can be done, but maybe keep to the facts about what's required.
Biggles Flies Undone said:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all, if that is what they want to do. You might be missing the point of wha I am trying to say, which is that we all need to be careful about unconsciously pushing boys and girls in different directions.
There are a myriad of reason why women and massively underrepresented in motorsport and it is much more of a societal thing, but all the comments about women not being physically able is absolute codswallop.
One reason I posted here about it, is that I'm currently having to deal with how to keep a bunch of 11 and 12 year olds engaged in rugby. I've been coaching a mixed group since they were 6 and they have grown up playing together. It has been great and there weren't any differences between them at all. However, obviously things change, so from U12 onwards, mixed, full contact rugby isn't allowed by the RFU, so all of a sudden, all of these young girls who absolutely loved getting stuck in and playing some seriously good rugby, suddenly couldn't. As there simply aren't enough of them, then we are in the awful situation of not being able to field a team or even have enough for a proper training squad.
Even when combining teams across the area, we are really struggling to get enough girls together to get a critical mass to play. For those (like my daughter) who love the game, it is heartbreaking and I can see their confidence get knocked, as suddenly they are being told they can't do something because they are a girl.
It has really brought home to me, just how difficult it is to keep girls involved in sport like that, as without anyone being mean, it is simply structured in a way that makes it almost impossible to keep engagement.
OK, it is a team sport, so different to motorsport, but many of the same issues are present there too.
Motor racing should be a sport where men and women can and should compete on a level playing field. We are a very long way away from that and when you see this sort of discussion that centres around physicality etc, then you start to understand why. Your defensiveness and immediate reaction to pour scorn and scoff at it, is also a tell as to why it is so hard. You don't appear to be willing to even acknowledge that there is a issue.
And you seem determined to stick your fingers in your ears and ignore what others are saying, as well as what's already been posted here time and time again. Where is your evidence for this supposed unconscious push? Or are you interpreting parents supporting their kids choices as them pushing their kids in a certain direction because it suits your own PoV? There are a myriad of reason why women and massively underrepresented in motorsport and it is much more of a societal thing, but all the comments about women not being physically able is absolute codswallop.
One reason I posted here about it, is that I'm currently having to deal with how to keep a bunch of 11 and 12 year olds engaged in rugby. I've been coaching a mixed group since they were 6 and they have grown up playing together. It has been great and there weren't any differences between them at all. However, obviously things change, so from U12 onwards, mixed, full contact rugby isn't allowed by the RFU, so all of a sudden, all of these young girls who absolutely loved getting stuck in and playing some seriously good rugby, suddenly couldn't. As there simply aren't enough of them, then we are in the awful situation of not being able to field a team or even have enough for a proper training squad.
Even when combining teams across the area, we are really struggling to get enough girls together to get a critical mass to play. For those (like my daughter) who love the game, it is heartbreaking and I can see their confidence get knocked, as suddenly they are being told they can't do something because they are a girl.
It has really brought home to me, just how difficult it is to keep girls involved in sport like that, as without anyone being mean, it is simply structured in a way that makes it almost impossible to keep engagement.
OK, it is a team sport, so different to motorsport, but many of the same issues are present there too.
Motor racing should be a sport where men and women can and should compete on a level playing field. We are a very long way away from that and when you see this sort of discussion that centres around physicality etc, then you start to understand why. Your defensiveness and immediate reaction to pour scorn and scoff at it, is also a tell as to why it is so hard. You don't appear to be willing to even acknowledge that there is a issue.
I'm not sure I see the relevance of your rugby rant in the context of women who want to have a go at motorsport, but I hope you feel better for having gotten it off your chest.You say "Motor racing should be a sport where men and women can and should compete on a level playing field."
Erm.... it is.
Then say "We are a very long way away from that and when you see this sort of discussion that centres around physicality etc, then you start to understand why"
Where is your evidence for this? Where are these supposed barriers to stop women getting involved in motorsport?
Others have posted links outlining why women have a small but nonetheless existent disadvantage physiologically - not just base level physique and fitness but vision, reaction times, brain function. But feel free to disregard it, as is your want.
You may want to interpret my witterings here as being defensive as it suits what seems like your agenda. I'd call it not accepting BS. The same BS that's been spouted here and shot down multiple times. So here we are, all over again.
Biggles Flies Undone said:
I get that PH is maybe not the ideal place to be discussing things like this, as let's face it, it is a site with a massive majority of male users, but that in itself is pretty telling. Why is that?
It really is simple if you do not try to read too much into it.In general, there are far more men interested in cars than women. Exactly the same when it comes to motor racing. It really is that simple.
I am in my 60s, when I was young there was a clear difference between 'girl activities' and 'boy activities'. This has reduced over time but there is still a legacy of this.
You could equally ask why some many more young women want to work with horses than young men.
Ah, this thread going round in circles again.
There’s a high level of physical fitness required to drive fast single-seater cars, especially IndyCar and F2 which don’t have power steering.
That required level is however attainable with effort by most women, and not a differentiator of driver performance once it is met. Danica Patrick is tiny and drove Indy for years.
Yes, perhaps the best way to get more girls driving karts is to ban the noisy, smelly, and expensive to maintain things that are horses.
There’s a high level of physical fitness required to drive fast single-seater cars, especially IndyCar and F2 which don’t have power steering.
That required level is however attainable with effort by most women, and not a differentiator of driver performance once it is met. Danica Patrick is tiny and drove Indy for years.
Yes, perhaps the best way to get more girls driving karts is to ban the noisy, smelly, and expensive to maintain things that are horses.
Biggles Flies Undone said:
Even when combining teams across the area, we are really struggling to get enough girls together to get a critical mass to play. For those (like my daughter) who love the game, it is heartbreaking and I can see their confidence get knocked, as suddenly they are being told they can't do something because they are a girl.
That is because you are not actually telling them the right thing.It is absolutely NOT because they are a girl. It is because there are not enough like-minded girls.
MustangGT said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
Even when combining teams across the area, we are really struggling to get enough girls together to get a critical mass to play. For those (like my daughter) who love the game, it is heartbreaking and I can see their confidence get knocked, as suddenly they are being told they can't do something because they are a girl.
That is because you are not actually telling them the right thing.It is absolutely NOT because they are a girl. It is because there are not enough like-minded girls.
As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
Biggles Flies Undone said:
I think you are making the mistake that you think people have to overtly say something for people's behaviour to be impacted by a situation. Not a single person is or would say that, however, they are smart enough to work things out for themselves.
As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
I refer you to my preceding post. It is simply that girls are interested in different things to boys, however that is caused, be it genetic or environmental.As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
MustangGT said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
I think you are making the mistake that you think people have to overtly say something for people's behaviour to be impacted by a situation. Not a single person is or would say that, however, they are smart enough to work things out for themselves.
As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
I refer you to my preceding post. It is simply that girls are interested in different things to boys, however that is caused, be it genetic or environmental.As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
Just anecdotal but all of the women / girls I have known racing and through car activities have been pushed to it by a dad who was well into cars and racing or a boyfriend who was into cars and the girl joined the social circle.
I dont know any who started it because it was their passion or something they saw as a career path.
All but one of them has given up cars / motorsport now that the influence of the male has gone.
So guess it could be argued that we are pushing women to do this against their natural will.
I dont know any who started it because it was their passion or something they saw as a career path.
All but one of them has given up cars / motorsport now that the influence of the male has gone.
So guess it could be argued that we are pushing women to do this against their natural will.
RB Will said:
Just anecdotal but all of the women / girls I have known racing and through car activities have been pushed to it by a dad who was well into cars and racing or a boyfriend who was into cars and the girl joined the social circle.
I dont know any who started it because it was their passion or something they saw as a career path.
All but one of them has given up cars / motorsport now that the influence of the male has gone.
So guess it could be argued that we are pushing women to do this against their natural will.
I dont know any who started it because it was their passion or something they saw as a career path.
All but one of them has given up cars / motorsport now that the influence of the male has gone.
So guess it could be argued that we are pushing women to do this against their natural will.
You're not allowed to say that any more 
RB Will said:
Just anecdotal but all of the women / girls I have known racing and through car activities have been pushed to it by a dad who was well into cars and racing or a boyfriend who was into cars and the girl joined the social circle.
I dont know any who started it because it was their passion or something they saw as a career path.
All but one of them has given up cars / motorsport now that the influence of the male has gone.
So guess it could be argued that we are pushing women to do this against their natural will.
Not at all. In the example of a pushy Dad, that is against their will - although not really in a terrible way.I dont know any who started it because it was their passion or something they saw as a career path.
All but one of them has given up cars / motorsport now that the influence of the male has gone.
So guess it could be argued that we are pushing women to do this against their natural will.
The F Academy isn't pushing anything, it's just demonstrating that there is a path for women, and that it can be an exciting life to aim for.
MustangGT said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
I think you are making the mistake that you think people have to overtly say something for people's behaviour to be impacted by a situation. Not a single person is or would say that, however, they are smart enough to work things out for themselves.
As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
I refer you to my preceding post. It is simply that girls are interested in different things to boys, however that is caused, be it genetic or environmental.As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
Biggles Flies Undone said:
MustangGT said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
I think you are making the mistake that you think people have to overtly say something for people's behaviour to be impacted by a situation. Not a single person is or would say that, however, they are smart enough to work things out for themselves.
As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
I refer you to my preceding post. It is simply that girls are interested in different things to boys, however that is caused, be it genetic or environmental.As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
Environmental? If your friends are in rural locations and more interested in horses than cars it is not a reasonable assumption that you will be more disposed to be interested in horses too?
Nature and nurture. Two items well documented to affect people's behaviours.
MustangGT said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
MustangGT said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
I think you are making the mistake that you think people have to overtly say something for people's behaviour to be impacted by a situation. Not a single person is or would say that, however, they are smart enough to work things out for themselves.
As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
I refer you to my preceding post. It is simply that girls are interested in different things to boys, however that is caused, be it genetic or environmental.As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
Environmental? If your friends are in rural locations and more interested in horses than cars it is not a reasonable assumption that you will be more disposed to be interested in horses too?
Nature and nurture. Two items well documented to affect people's behaviours.
Going back to nurture. What is it do you think that makes it more likely for a Girl to be interested in one thing and boys to be interested in another? Would a girl who is immersed in racing from a young age be as likely to love it as a boy?
MustangGT said:
Of course there are genetic differences, male and female reproductive systems are different genetically. These are the X and Y chromosomes. Then there are the differences in number of ribs , size of the Adam's Apple, voice box etc. Is it a stretch to think there may be some behavioural traits associated to gender? Not a stretch to most people.
Environmental? If your friends are in rural locations and more interested in horses than cars it is not a reasonable assumption that you will be more disposed to be interested in horses too?
Nature and nurture. Two items well documented to affect people's behaviours.
The bible is not a treatise on anatomy. Stop talking about something you know nothing about. Environmental? If your friends are in rural locations and more interested in horses than cars it is not a reasonable assumption that you will be more disposed to be interested in horses too?
Nature and nurture. Two items well documented to affect people's behaviours.
MustangGT said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
MustangGT said:
Biggles Flies Undone said:
I think you are making the mistake that you think people have to overtly say something for people's behaviour to be impacted by a situation. Not a single person is or would say that, however, they are smart enough to work things out for themselves.
As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
I refer you to my preceding post. It is simply that girls are interested in different things to boys, however that is caused, be it genetic or environmental.As for the last bit about "not enough like-minded girls" why do you think that is? You are so close to making the mental leap here.
Environmental? If your friends are in rural locations and more interested in horses than cars it is not a reasonable assumption that you will be more disposed to be interested in horses too?
Nature and nurture. Two items well documented to affect people's behaviours.
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