Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?

Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?

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TheDeuce

21,264 posts

65 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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mw88 said:
TheDeuce said:
basically Mazepin is about as talentless as anyone can be and still get a seat regardless of deserving it or not..
F3 Asian Championship, 2019 - 2020


whistle
Exactly. He wasn't good enough for a seat on merit but he at least was competitive enough to accumulate the points required to make buying in possible.

Back in the early 90's the money alone could have been enough. For many in the preceding decades it was. And they were all woeful!

thegreenhell

15,105 posts

218 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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How is Joey Alders career progressing? He is surely set for stardom based on that.

JonChalk

6,469 posts

109 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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thegreenhell said:
How is Joey Alders career progressing? He is surely set for stardom based on that.
I have never heard of him, and (until now) prided (word?) myself on following the junior formulae.....

SmoothCriminal

5,047 posts

198 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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I've been pondering this since I commented and I actually think W series and women only series are the way to go.

I don't see this fascination of having women compete against men in F1, if women can't physically compete against men (as has been said above) then why must the men's series be dumbed down let them race each other as they do in most other physically limited sports.


carl_w

9,154 posts

257 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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mw88 said:
F3 Asian Championship, 2019 - 2020


whistle
Pietro Fittipaldi has taken part in two F1 races.

freedman

5,395 posts

206 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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LukeBrown66 said:
The issue is that so far, other than perhaps Galica and Wilson, nearly every female racing driver certainly in F1 was eitehr "Mingling" with the right peopel to get there a la Jorda, Amati and Wolff, or used money to get there a la Calderon.

Only one of these is possible with men, a guy cant really use his looks to get to the top as Jorda managed to, she had no talent to speak of yet managed to get to that level very quickly through one way or another.

Blokes can only by there way in, and it has been the case for a long time, way back to guys like Hector Rebaque, Zunino, right through to even half decent guys like Diniz, a lot of Japanese drivers etc.

Women stand a far better chance of being promoted, but you still need to be good and most of them aren't
You omitted Lella Lombardi, who was better than both (IMO), and the only woman to score points in a GP

TheDeuce

21,264 posts

65 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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SmoothCriminal said:
I've been pondering this since I commented and I actually think W series and women only series are the way to go.

I don't see this fascination of having women compete against men in F1, if women can't physically compete against men (as has been said above) then why must the men's series be dumbed down let them race each other as they do in most other physically limited sports.
That's fine and I agree. But they need an entire series in tiers leading to a w series for the elite if it's going to work. Right now all they have is the equivalent of F3 and then it's game over.

The problem is who's gonna pay for them to have multiple levels of female only motorsport..

F1 only exists (now) because it puts on a show people want to see, and pay to see one way or another. W series generates enough to pay for itself as just a single, token series. That's probably enough for most viewers and sponsors.. box ticked, women go racing.

I do however think it would be a great idea if the top three women each season were entered into a handful of races in F2 style cars along with a grid made of other past top three W racers. Then the winner of that can look to getting back on the F1 ladder.

Edited by TheDeuce on Friday 13th May 19:06

entropy

5,403 posts

202 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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LukeBrown66 said:
Women stand a far better chance of being promoted, but you still need to be good and most of them aren't
Matthew Carter admitted that the reason he hired Carmen Jorda for Lotus, from the advice of Bernie Ecclestone, was to attract attention and sponsors.

TheDeuce

21,264 posts

65 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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entropy said:
LukeBrown66 said:
Women stand a far better chance of being promoted, but you still need to be good and most of them aren't
Matthew Carter admitted that the reason he hired Carmen Jorda for Lotus, from the advice of Bernie Ecclestone, was to attract attention and sponsors.
A no brainer surely. A down and out team has two drivers to choose from to drive a slow car.. choose the one that will bring sponsors and headlines.

Cynical I know but.. I can see it happening in F1 at some point if a woman were to get the required license points.

thegreenhell

15,105 posts

218 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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entropy said:
Matthew Carter admitted that the reason he hired Carmen Jorda for Lotus, from the advice of Bernie Ecclestone, was to attract attention and sponsors.
I don't think she ever even tested the car, did she? So basically Jorda was signed for the same reason that Jordan (Katie Price) was hired by Jordan (Eddie).

TheDeuce

21,264 posts

65 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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jsf said:
thegreenhell said:
entropy said:
Matthew Carter admitted that the reason he hired Carmen Jorda for Lotus, from the advice of Bernie Ecclestone, was to attract attention and sponsors.
I don't think she ever even tested the car, did she? So basically Jorda was signed for the same reason that Jordan (Katie Price) was hired by Jordan (Eddie).
Jorda was absolutely panned by other female drivers for suggesting women shouldn't compete against men and advocated a series like W series.

She was also panned by female racers when she was appointed to a position in the FIA to promote women in motorsport, because her results were poor.

Funny how now everything she wanted and was panned for is the next great hope.

W series is a nonsense and will do nothing to get a woman into F1.
It's not about the destination it's about the journey.

Except in real life, where it's all about the destination smile

Speed Badger

2,667 posts

116 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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Do you think male drivers are just a bit more mental and less concerned about self-preservation than female drivers? Could account for those extra couple of tenths that make the difference. Obviously there will be exceptions to the rule, but it might be a thing. Men are just stupider and riskier!

TheDeuce

21,264 posts

65 months

Friday 13th May 2022
quotequote all
jsf said:
TheDeuce said:
It's not about the destination it's about the journey.

Except in real life, where it's all about the destination smile
It's all about the money in these single make championships.
Money is a destination. Arguably the driving factor behind any sporting entrant in F1.

And I'm fine with that. If you have a passion, make it pay. You'll always be most successful if your job is a passion.

TheDeuce

21,264 posts

65 months

Friday 13th May 2022
quotequote all
Speed Badger said:
Do you think male drivers are just a bit more mental and less concerned about self-preservation than female drivers? Could account for those extra couple of tenths that make the difference. Obviously there will be exceptions to the rule, but it might be a thing. Men are just stupider and riskier!
Male bravado is definitely a factor, but it's just one of many things that tip the balance.

Men and women are different in several ways. There's no reason to expect or demand both sexes should be equal in practice within a single sphere of performance.

TheDeuce

21,264 posts

65 months

Friday 13th May 2022
quotequote all
jsf said:
Speed Badger said:
Do you think male drivers are just a bit more mental and less concerned about self-preservation than female drivers? Could account for those extra couple of tenths that make the difference. Obviously there will be exceptions to the rule, but it might be a thing. Men are just stupider and riskier!
No idea, but it's not a physical strength issue holding them back.

My female friend who was a decent rally driver was certainly mentally strong enough to compete and push to the limit. She was definitely crazier than me. The one time we competed against each other in a rallycross event where we shared her car, first time i drove it, i beat her. My style of driving was much tidier and far less aggressive.

Maybe it's simply a case of those women who have the correct temperament and skill just aren't interested in racing cars. Crazy or brave isn't a positive in most technical sports.
I'd say a little crazy/brave is required to find the limit and then discipline and understanding to remain within the limit.

At a photoshoot recently I made a casual comment about low voltage electricity in water being no more dangerous than licking a 9v battery. It started a debate and it turned out that out of about 40 people present all the guys had at some point licked a 9v battery, none of the ladies ever had. There's something in the male psyche that chooses to learn by doing the stupid thing initially smile

Same as me opting to finally use a spanner after trying my best to tighten Meccano nuts with my fingers and teeth.. I went for the quick result as a kid instead of using the boring fiddlesome tool.

Or maybe I'm just a bit simple scratchchin

LukeBrown66

4,479 posts

45 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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I do think there is something in the needing and wanting to compete

Even now in sim racing, of someone is miles faster than me they must be cheating or have put thousands of hours in, have a trick setup or have the best equipment, some of this is probably true but most if it is that they just are quicker, understand how to be quicker more.

Women are maybe not as easily impressed by speed, bravado as men.

But if a girl decides to get into racing and they get to a certain level it is because they beat lots of men. And that means they can then attract sponsors, it is getting more and more common.

I say again, I have watched junior categories were not only did girls beat boys, they totally dominated in tough, full contact short oval racing, they were faster, more aggressive, had better racecraft, it was utterly amazing, and crowds were drawn to it for lots of reason, the racing was great, this girl power thing was great to see.

And the best part was when it was raised, the kids were all about "i am just a driver, gender is not there" I just enjoy winning, beating rivals etc etc, not beating boys, sadly we all wanted to talk about, they didn't they just wanted to race,m and win. it was nothing to them, they were in the zone.

TheDeuce

21,264 posts

65 months

Friday 13th May 2022
quotequote all
jsf said:
TheDeuce said:
I'd say a little crazy/brave is required to find the limit and then discipline and understanding to remain within the limit.

At a photoshoot recently I made a casual comment about low voltage electricity in water being no more dangerous than licking a 9v battery. It started a debate and it turned out that out of about 40 people present all the guys had at some point licked a 9v battery, none of the ladies ever had. There's something in the male psyche that chooses to learn by doing the stupid thing initially smile

Same as me opting to finally use a spanner after trying my best to tighten Meccano nuts with my fingers and teeth.. I went for the quick result as a kid instead of using the boring fiddlesome tool.

Or maybe I'm just a bit simple scratchchin
Yep, thats pretty stupid. biggrin

I've scars all over from the daft stuff i did as a kid.
Yep. My homemade Beano inspired go-cart ending up wedged (along with my legs) under the front end of my Dad's Volvo as he turned into the estate is my high point.

He was quite proud of me I think. I can't imagine many Dad's being so supportive if their daughters did that sort of thing though.. And honestly, if I end up with a daughter, I don't think I would be. Sexist, I suppose?? If I end up with a lad, it's his problem. Steer the go-cart better.

TwentyFive

334 posts

65 months

Monday 16th May 2022
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It has been a bizarre concept since the start and does the complete opposite to its supposed aim. To highlight the cause and get a woman to F1, we will stop racing against the best competitors and start our own club. Makes no sense when to be the best you need to beat the best. It is one thing having equality of opportunity and quite another to have equality of outcome.

The part that I cannot understand is that women have had equality of opportunity in entering kart or car races since day one. F1 is not a designated male only series and W Series does not provide anything new in this aspect, there is no gender barrier to entry for women in any racing series.

Any aim for equality of outcome should not ever be met in my view. Why should some F1 seats go to women just because some others are men? It's illogical and removes the meritocracy aspect that allows the cream to rise to the top. I accept there are pay drivers but even those guys still have to get the super license points to make it on the grid. W Series have not shown this intention of demanding seats at the top table, but it highlights that their series actually achieves nothing other than removing women from racing against other generational talents in the stepping stones of junior formulae. It does more damage than good to those girls chances when equality of opportunity was ever present.

The reality is that F1 teams would sell their own grannies for 0.1s a lap and you can guarantee that if it was a female racing driver that could deliver that 0.1s then they would be in the seat immediately. It just happens to be that they haven't been fast enough as of yet. When a lady is quick enough, they will get to F1. Until such a time, we wait. They will be massively marketable when it happens.

The angle about men taking more risks than women is likely to be inherently true and potentially the reason why more men have the urge to race, however I don't think it is true to say that women will always be slower due to a more considered or reserved nature. This logic can be applied to other industries too. Most astronauts are men, with some schemes to encourage women to go to space. Same for fighter pilots etc. There does seem to be a link to more males doing risky things throughout history. Testosterone makes us do risky things!

As for Chadwick. She is a very capable driver but not F1 material or she would be knocking on the door already at age 23. Likely to have a good career in sports cars or the like down the line. Good luck to her. I also think Fabienne Wohlwend is a good driver too, who does equally well in GTs when not racing W Series.

Edited by TwentyFive on Monday 16th May 12:48

LukeBrown66

4,479 posts

45 months

Monday 16th May 2022
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I would mildly disagree with a few sentiments chap, and that is that there are quite a few female air force pilots both in fast jet worldwide and commercial, that is probably more strenuous physically and obviously more mentally, but there is a take up there, and of course that can be balanced by a need to tick boxes, unlike motorsport that is ONLY based at the top level on speed.

And that is the big issue, any F1 team is crying out for the media attention of getting a worthwhile female F1 driver, but there are not any even close.

Are we therefore saying that with training a military fast pilot can be any sex, but a race driver ONLY has to rely on talent, instinct, bravery, therefore almost excluding women?

Maybe so. as for sure in many ways a fighter pilot has to think, react, plan a lot more than a race driver does.

TwentyFive

334 posts

65 months

Monday 16th May 2022
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LukeBrown66 said:
I would mildly disagree with a few sentiments chap, and that is that there are quite a few female air force pilots both in fast jet worldwide and commercial, that is probably more strenuous physically and obviously more mentally, but there is a take up there, and of course that can be balanced by a need to tick boxes, unlike motorsport that is ONLY based at the top level on speed.

Are we therefore saying that with training a military fast pilot can be any sex, but a race driver ONLY has to rely on talent, instinct, bravery, therefore almost excluding women?

Maybe so. as for sure in many ways a fighter pilot has to think, react, plan a lot more than a race driver does.
A quick google suggests that only 7% of US fighter pilots are female and just 5% of commercial pilots are female. That's in excess of a 90% swing towards men taking those roles. The FIA commission confirmed back in 2018 that in karting alone there is 1 female license holder for every 14 male license holders which is interestingly also 7% and aligns to the percentage of female pilots above.

People tend to conform to what societal roles have traditionally looked like in the past and only a small percentage ever break that mould be it through a different upbringing, a clear early interest or genetic make up less similar to their peers. It can likely be applied the same way in that just 0.4% of UK midwives are male.

I think it comes down to most young women choosing to do something else with their time in addition to the often outdated and stereotypical view of what a woman should be and do at that age. My sister being given a pram and a doll was not going to inspire her to be a racing driver. I was given a pedal kart. Why? I don't know but it's likely it was because that's what boys and girls do. It heavily impacted on my interests from that day onwards.

I'd be inclined to take a punt that it's about what young girls are being exposed to and the fact that women are more often less physically aggressive thanks to genetics that combines to make it very hard for a woman to ever crack F1 against men. There is always the exception to the rule with Danica Patrick or Michele Mouton but of all sports I think reaching the pinnacle of motorsport where they complete on an equal footing with men who have a completely different physical and mental make-up is likely the most challenging to crack for a woman.

The bigger the pool, the greater the chance of finding the next top female, but W Series just seeks to take a small pool and not let anyone else in. The success of W Series maybe inspiring young women from an early age to go racing. That would allow more women in the pool and a greater chance of one of them turning out to be something special. W Series won't produce the next generational female talent we have been waiting for because if they are good enough then they wouldn't need to race in the series in the first place.