Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?

Jamie Chadwick - First competitive female driver in F1?

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Discussion

jsf

25,883 posts

213 months

Friday 13th May
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Speed Badger said:
Do you think male drivers are just a bit more mental and less concerned about self-preservation than female drivers? Could account for those extra couple of tenths that make the difference. Obviously there will be exceptions to the rule, but it might be a thing. Men are just stupider and riskier!
No idea, but it's not a physical strength issue holding them back.

My female friend who was a decent rally driver was certainly mentally strong enough to compete and push to the limit. She was definitely crazier than me. The one time we competed against each other in a rallycross event where we shared her car, first time i drove it, i beat her. My style of driving was much tidier and far less aggressive.

Maybe it's simply a case of those women who have the correct temperament and skill just aren't interested in racing cars. Crazy or brave isn't a positive in most technical sports.

TheDeuce

13,917 posts

43 months

Friday 13th May
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jsf said:
Speed Badger said:
Do you think male drivers are just a bit more mental and less concerned about self-preservation than female drivers? Could account for those extra couple of tenths that make the difference. Obviously there will be exceptions to the rule, but it might be a thing. Men are just stupider and riskier!
No idea, but it's not a physical strength issue holding them back.

My female friend who was a decent rally driver was certainly mentally strong enough to compete and push to the limit. She was definitely crazier than me. The one time we competed against each other in a rallycross event where we shared her car, first time i drove it, i beat her. My style of driving was much tidier and far less aggressive.

Maybe it's simply a case of those women who have the correct temperament and skill just aren't interested in racing cars. Crazy or brave isn't a positive in most technical sports.
I'd say a little crazy/brave is required to find the limit and then discipline and understanding to remain within the limit.

At a photoshoot recently I made a casual comment about low voltage electricity in water being no more dangerous than licking a 9v battery. It started a debate and it turned out that out of about 40 people present all the guys had at some point licked a 9v battery, none of the ladies ever had. There's something in the male psyche that chooses to learn by doing the stupid thing initially smile

Same as me opting to finally use a spanner after trying my best to tighten Meccano nuts with my fingers and teeth.. I went for the quick result as a kid instead of using the boring fiddlesome tool.

Or maybe I'm just a bit simple scratchchin

LukeBrown66

2,243 posts

23 months

Friday 13th May
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I do think there is something in the needing and wanting to compete

Even now in sim racing, of someone is miles faster than me they must be cheating or have put thousands of hours in, have a trick setup or have the best equipment, some of this is probably true but most if it is that they just are quicker, understand how to be quicker more.

Women are maybe not as easily impressed by speed, bravado as men.

But if a girl decides to get into racing and they get to a certain level it is because they beat lots of men. And that means they can then attract sponsors, it is getting more and more common.

I say again, I have watched junior categories were not only did girls beat boys, they totally dominated in tough, full contact short oval racing, they were faster, more aggressive, had better racecraft, it was utterly amazing, and crowds were drawn to it for lots of reason, the racing was great, this girl power thing was great to see.

And the best part was when it was raised, the kids were all about "i am just a driver, gender is not there" I just enjoy winning, beating rivals etc etc, not beating boys, sadly we all wanted to talk about, they didn't they just wanted to race,m and win. it was nothing to them, they were in the zone.

jsf

25,883 posts

213 months

Friday 13th May
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TheDeuce said:
I'd say a little crazy/brave is required to find the limit and then discipline and understanding to remain within the limit.

At a photoshoot recently I made a casual comment about low voltage electricity in water being no more dangerous than licking a 9v battery. It started a debate and it turned out that out of about 40 people present all the guys had at some point licked a 9v battery, none of the ladies ever had. There's something in the male psyche that chooses to learn by doing the stupid thing initially smile

Same as me opting to finally use a spanner after trying my best to tighten Meccano nuts with my fingers and teeth.. I went for the quick result as a kid instead of using the boring fiddlesome tool.

Or maybe I'm just a bit simple scratchchin
Yep, thats pretty stupid. biggrin

I've scars all over from the daft stuff i did as a kid.

TheDeuce

13,917 posts

43 months

Friday 13th May
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jsf said:
TheDeuce said:
I'd say a little crazy/brave is required to find the limit and then discipline and understanding to remain within the limit.

At a photoshoot recently I made a casual comment about low voltage electricity in water being no more dangerous than licking a 9v battery. It started a debate and it turned out that out of about 40 people present all the guys had at some point licked a 9v battery, none of the ladies ever had. There's something in the male psyche that chooses to learn by doing the stupid thing initially smile

Same as me opting to finally use a spanner after trying my best to tighten Meccano nuts with my fingers and teeth.. I went for the quick result as a kid instead of using the boring fiddlesome tool.

Or maybe I'm just a bit simple scratchchin
Yep, thats pretty stupid. biggrin

I've scars all over from the daft stuff i did as a kid.
Yep. My homemade Beano inspired go-cart ending up wedged (along with my legs) under the front end of my Dad's Volvo as he turned into the estate is my high point.

He was quite proud of me I think. I can't imagine many Dad's being so supportive if their daughters did that sort of thing though.. And honestly, if I end up with a daughter, I don't think I would be. Sexist, I suppose?? If I end up with a lad, it's his problem. Steer the go-cart better.

TwentyFive

325 posts

43 months

Monday 16th May
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It has been a bizarre concept since the start and does the complete opposite to its supposed aim. To highlight the cause and get a woman to F1, we will stop racing against the best competitors and start our own club. Makes no sense when to be the best you need to beat the best. It is one thing having equality of opportunity and quite another to have equality of outcome.

The part that I cannot understand is that women have had equality of opportunity in entering kart or car races since day one. F1 is not a designated male only series and W Series does not provide anything new in this aspect, there is no gender barrier to entry for women in any racing series.

Any aim for equality of outcome should not ever be met in my view. Why should some F1 seats go to women just because some others are men? It's illogical and removes the meritocracy aspect that allows the cream to rise to the top. I accept there are pay drivers but even those guys still have to get the super license points to make it on the grid. W Series have not shown this intention of demanding seats at the top table, but it highlights that their series actually achieves nothing other than removing women from racing against other generational talents in the stepping stones of junior formulae. It does more damage than good to those girls chances when equality of opportunity was ever present.

The reality is that F1 teams would sell their own grannies for 0.1s a lap and you can guarantee that if it was a female racing driver that could deliver that 0.1s then they would be in the seat immediately. It just happens to be that they haven't been fast enough as of yet. When a lady is quick enough, they will get to F1. Until such a time, we wait. They will be massively marketable when it happens.

The angle about men taking more risks than women is likely to be inherently true and potentially the reason why more men have the urge to race, however I don't think it is true to say that women will always be slower due to a more considered or reserved nature. This logic can be applied to other industries too. Most astronauts are men, with some schemes to encourage women to go to space. Same for fighter pilots etc. There does seem to be a link to more males doing risky things throughout history. Testosterone makes us do risky things!

As for Chadwick. She is a very capable driver but not F1 material or she would be knocking on the door already at age 23. Likely to have a good career in sports cars or the like down the line. Good luck to her. I also think Fabienne Wohlwend is a good driver too, who does equally well in GTs when not racing W Series.

Edited by TwentyFive on Monday 16th May 12:48

LukeBrown66

2,243 posts

23 months

Monday 16th May
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I would mildly disagree with a few sentiments chap, and that is that there are quite a few female air force pilots both in fast jet worldwide and commercial, that is probably more strenuous physically and obviously more mentally, but there is a take up there, and of course that can be balanced by a need to tick boxes, unlike motorsport that is ONLY based at the top level on speed.

And that is the big issue, any F1 team is crying out for the media attention of getting a worthwhile female F1 driver, but there are not any even close.

Are we therefore saying that with training a military fast pilot can be any sex, but a race driver ONLY has to rely on talent, instinct, bravery, therefore almost excluding women?

Maybe so. as for sure in many ways a fighter pilot has to think, react, plan a lot more than a race driver does.

TwentyFive

325 posts

43 months

Monday 16th May
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LukeBrown66 said:
I would mildly disagree with a few sentiments chap, and that is that there are quite a few female air force pilots both in fast jet worldwide and commercial, that is probably more strenuous physically and obviously more mentally, but there is a take up there, and of course that can be balanced by a need to tick boxes, unlike motorsport that is ONLY based at the top level on speed.

Are we therefore saying that with training a military fast pilot can be any sex, but a race driver ONLY has to rely on talent, instinct, bravery, therefore almost excluding women?

Maybe so. as for sure in many ways a fighter pilot has to think, react, plan a lot more than a race driver does.
A quick google suggests that only 7% of US fighter pilots are female and just 5% of commercial pilots are female. That's in excess of a 90% swing towards men taking those roles. The FIA commission confirmed back in 2018 that in karting alone there is 1 female license holder for every 14 male license holders which is interestingly also 7% and aligns to the percentage of female pilots above.

People tend to conform to what societal roles have traditionally looked like in the past and only a small percentage ever break that mould be it through a different upbringing, a clear early interest or genetic make up less similar to their peers. It can likely be applied the same way in that just 0.4% of UK midwives are male.

I think it comes down to most young women choosing to do something else with their time in addition to the often outdated and stereotypical view of what a woman should be and do at that age. My sister being given a pram and a doll was not going to inspire her to be a racing driver. I was given a pedal kart. Why? I don't know but it's likely it was because that's what boys and girls do. It heavily impacted on my interests from that day onwards.

I'd be inclined to take a punt that it's about what young girls are being exposed to and the fact that women are more often less physically aggressive thanks to genetics that combines to make it very hard for a woman to ever crack F1 against men. There is always the exception to the rule with Danica Patrick or Michele Mouton but of all sports I think reaching the pinnacle of motorsport where they complete on an equal footing with men who have a completely different physical and mental make-up is likely the most challenging to crack for a woman.

The bigger the pool, the greater the chance of finding the next top female, but W Series just seeks to take a small pool and not let anyone else in. The success of W Series maybe inspiring young women from an early age to go racing. That would allow more women in the pool and a greater chance of one of them turning out to be something special. W Series won't produce the next generational female talent we have been waiting for because if they are good enough then they wouldn't need to race in the series in the first place.


RB Will

7,920 posts

217 months

Monday 16th May
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LukeBrown66 said:
I would mildly disagree with a few sentiments chap, and that is that there are quite a few female air force pilots both in fast jet worldwide and commercial, that is probably more strenuous physically and obviously more mentally, but there is a take up there, and of course that can be balanced by a need to tick boxes, unlike motorsport that is ONLY based at the top level on speed.

And that is the big issue, any F1 team is crying out for the media attention of getting a worthwhile female F1 driver, but there are not any even close.

Are we therefore saying that with training a military fast pilot can be any sex, but a race driver ONLY has to rely on talent, instinct, bravery, therefore almost excluding women?

Maybe so. as for sure in many ways a fighter pilot has to think, react, plan a lot more than a race driver does.
Just thinking through this comparison. Fighter pilots or aerobatics pilots will hit higher G loadings, but only in one direction and with a suit on. They will only have to perform under these circumstances for a short time, seconds to minutes at most I'd expect. F1 race is 1-3 hrs, never mind test days where they can do double race distances. And F1 are hitting these forces every few seconds in different directions.
Similarly with the fast thinking, to be equivalent to F1 you would probably have to be in the equivalent of a sustained dogfight for 2 hours, rather than planning while on autopilot etc.

And remember it is not just the physical activity of driving the car you need to do, that is "easy", F1 drivers need to do it to the best of the machines capability lap after lap, you have to be the best of the best not just capable.

I dont think there have been any female competitors in the Red Bull Air Races? and if so no winners.
A quick Google suggests there has only been one woman so far to qualify through US Navy Top Gun and as far as I can see no female instructors. Don't know about equivalent qualifications for other air forces?



TheDeuce

13,917 posts

43 months

Monday 16th May
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I wonder how much longer W series will last for. Even if it were to be effective at getting young girls to take up karting then it'll take about another ten years to see if an increased number actually remain in the sport and start to regularly find their way at least into F2.

Will it last that long though? I've a feeling people will want to see results sooner than that (even though that's just how long it will take) if it's to remain sufficiently interesting to continue to attract an audience.

BobToc

951 posts

94 months

Monday 16th May
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TheDeuce said:
I wonder how much longer W series will last for.
We’ll see, what Sky at least are very pleased with viewing numbers for Miami.

TwentyFive

325 posts

43 months

Monday 16th May
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Will it last that long though? I've a feeling people will want to see results sooner than that (even though that's just how long it will take) if it's to remain sufficiently interesting to continue to attract an audience.
To be honest I am amazed that they don't have the GP2/F2 rule whereby once you win the title, you have to move on.

I have often thought that it would surely be in W Series interest to come to an agreement with an F3 team to place the W Series title winner in their F3 car for the following year rather than handing out $500,000 that doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to modern single-seater budgets. Chadwick may become a problem for W Series if she wins a third title because her remaining there just bottlenecks what should be a conveyor belt process.

The series needs a clear progression path toward the top and a link to an F3 team could help that. Mind you, it could also prove W Series to be a folly if the champion went to F3 and got destroyed which wouldn't be a surprise either.



Joey Deacon

5,332 posts

153 months

Monday 16th May
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TwentyFive said:
The series needs a clear progression path toward the top and a link to an F3 team could help that. Mind you, it could also prove W Series to be a folly if the champion went to F3 and got destroyed which wouldn't be a surprise either.
Jamie Chadwick raced in the 2019–20 F3 Asian Championship.

1 Netherlands Joey Alders 266
2 Australia Jack Doohan 229
3 Russia Nikita Mazepin 186
4 United Kingdom Jamie Chadwick 139
5 Brazil Pietro Fittipaldi 119

She did well, but was beaten by Mazepin who as we all know was never good enough to cut it in F1. To say that she deserves an F1 drive based on that performance is laughable.

It is also laughable to say that it is not fair for women drivers as men are genetically programmed to take more risks. It's a 100% level playing field, to get into F1 you have to be good enough to beat your peers in F3 and F2. Even this is not good enough as Oscar Piastri has found, but having a billionaire father helps as well.

There are hundreds of decent drivers with more talent than Ms Chadwick who have not made it either, due to luck or finance. To suggest that her being female is the reason she is not in F1 is a joke.

TheDeuce

13,917 posts

43 months

Monday 16th May
quotequote all
Joey Deacon said:
TwentyFive said:
The series needs a clear progression path toward the top and a link to an F3 team could help that. Mind you, it could also prove W Series to be a folly if the champion went to F3 and got destroyed which wouldn't be a surprise either.
Jamie Chadwick raced in the 2019–20 F3 Asian Championship.

1 Netherlands Joey Alders 266
2 Australia Jack Doohan 229
3 Russia Nikita Mazepin 186
4 United Kingdom Jamie Chadwick 139
5 Brazil Pietro Fittipaldi 119

She did well, but was beaten by Mazepin who as we all know was never good enough to cut it in F1. To say that she deserves an F1 drive based on that performance is laughable.

It is also laughable to say that it is not fair for women drivers as men are genetically programmed to take more risks. It's a 100% level playing field, to get into F1 you have to be good enough to beat your peers in F3 and F2. Even this is not good enough as Oscar Piastri has found, but having a billionaire father helps as well.

There are hundreds of decent drivers with more talent than Ms Chadwick who have not made it either, due to luck or finance. To suggest that her being female is the reason she is not in F1 is a joke.
She's more than good enough for an F3 drive though. That's where she should be now, even if was as far as she ever makes it on the road to F1. It's a joke she's 'stuck' in W series.

I know it's all about the money but frankly it's not that much money and I'd have thought could be raised by new sponsorship that an interesting female racer could attract. Or as posted above, come up with a standing deal with an F3 team to take the winner of W series as a driver the following season. There must be a sponsor out there who would back such an initiative and be happily linked to delivering a new female driver into a mix with men every year.

I'm not claiming it's as simple as I'm suggesting to sort the £££ but it's got to be possible and the attention grabbing nature of female drivers penetrating a typically male sport does have value.

df76

3,327 posts

255 months

Monday 16th May
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TwentyFive said:
TheDeuce said:
Will it last that long though? I've a feeling people will want to see results sooner than that (even though that's just how long it will take) if it's to remain sufficiently interesting to continue to attract an audience.
To be honest I am amazed that they don't have the GP2/F2 rule whereby once you win the title, you have to move on.

I have often thought that it would surely be in W Series interest to come to an agreement with an F3 team to place the W Series title winner in their F3 car for the following year rather than handing out $500,000 that doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to modern single-seater budgets. Chadwick may become a problem for W Series if she wins a third title because her remaining there just bottlenecks what should be a conveyor belt process.

The series needs a clear progression path toward the top and a link to an F3 team could help that. Mind you, it could also prove W Series to be a folly if the champion went to F3 and got destroyed which wouldn't be a surprise either.
I'm pretty sure that when the series was first launched there was discussion that the winner would always have to move on, but that was obviously changed...

The comment about progression has already happened. Chadwick went and did Formula Regional Europe after winning the first season of W Series. She got well beaten and was off the pace in that (in a car that's the same chassis as the W Series, and engine?), and that killed off any step up to FIA F3 in 2021.

TheDeuce

13,917 posts

43 months

Monday 16th May
quotequote all
df76 said:
TwentyFive said:
TheDeuce said:
Will it last that long though? I've a feeling people will want to see results sooner than that (even though that's just how long it will take) if it's to remain sufficiently interesting to continue to attract an audience.
To be honest I am amazed that they don't have the GP2/F2 rule whereby once you win the title, you have to move on.

I have often thought that it would surely be in W Series interest to come to an agreement with an F3 team to place the W Series title winner in their F3 car for the following year rather than handing out $500,000 that doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to modern single-seater budgets. Chadwick may become a problem for W Series if she wins a third title because her remaining there just bottlenecks what should be a conveyor belt process.

The series needs a clear progression path toward the top and a link to an F3 team could help that. Mind you, it could also prove W Series to be a folly if the champion went to F3 and got destroyed which wouldn't be a surprise either.
I'm pretty sure that when the series was first launched there was discussion that the winner would always have to move on, but that was obviously changed...

The comment about progression has already happened. Chadwick went and did Formula Regional Europe after winning the first season of W Series. She got well beaten and was off the pace in that (in a car that's the same chassis as the W Series, and engine?), and that killed off any step up to FIA F3 in 2021.
They should definitely have to move on after winning, and the move should be automatic to F3 (via whatever complex agreements need to be in place to make that practical), even if most don't do well when they get there... And I believe sooner or later, there would be one that actually did OK, or at least average in F3.

I don't see the point of any other direction. W series is not that far removed from F3 in terms of what they're driving in any case, it's the natural next step. Even if for many it's a step too far, it's still the step they need to at least attempt.

trackdemon

11,363 posts

238 months

Monday 16th May
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The idea of 'forcing' women to compete in a sport by gerrymandering a specific series is just silly and does nobody any favour. It smacks of modern 'wokeness'. Let people do what they want to do. I'm not sure what the male equivalent would be, but there are some things that having a Y chromosome means you're more more inclined to be good at it. Science is a bh. But it's also proven fact.

Racing has always been totally open; girls, boys, men, whatever, the stopwatch is king. A segregated series (can you imagine the outrage at a boys only series!) doesn't help anyone apart from the winners bank account. As has been mentioned here many times, even the best of W are merely 'ok' in the real world, so what's the point, where's the progression?

RB Will

7,920 posts

217 months

Monday 16th May
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I think if I were her, after getting this 3rd championship in the bag I would just retire to coaching / stunt driving etc.
it is probably quite a thing having the weight of comfortably being the best female racer out there and knowing if you move on to a high mixed series you are likely to fail.
Not only does it do you no good but it probably harm the cause of women in motorsport showing the best of their best is just alright

pablo

16,420 posts

250 months

Monday 16th May
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If I were her, I’d go to WEC or GTs and have a long and successful career far away from the hell that is modern F1, referring to it as the “circus” has never been more apt.

LukeBrown66

2,243 posts

23 months

Monday 16th May
quotequote all
Ok so the comparisons with flying are more than valid, there is little take up, but there are women who have reached the pinnacle, to even think one got to Top Gun school is staggering as I doubt that sort of group is about making PC gestures.

I had a distant friend who got to fly buck 30s and Nimrods I think and was one of the first ever female RAF pilots and her path was not at all easy this was way before the PC brigade came on board aswell.

If you hear Mouton being interviewed man she was hellish determined, she pushed herself and her team harder than you can imagine, she knew what she was up against and fought like hell to achieve and she did.

I do not think this series helps at all, I have suggested multiple times now to move it away from a series and instead offer subsidised drives in yes a single seater series, as maybe the top prize, but then also WEC, GTWC, TCR, WRC etc etc, they could easily get the funding for that, this series has proved it is not working, despite all the hullaballoo. the focus on F1 is too much and too much pressure for the series as well as the women.