Mercedes' recent straight line speed. How? Legal?

[MustangGT]

Piginapoke said:

For a car to double (!) its performance advantage overnight is unheard of and will likely win Hamilton his WDC.

Try reading page 2 of this thread where the top speeds of the cars at various points around the track were detailed. At none of those were the Mercs the fastest cars, so, what 'performance advantage being doubled' are you talking about? Clearly there is none.

[Piginapoke]

MustangGT said:

Piginapoke said:

For a car to double (!) its performance advantage overnight is unheard of and will likely win Hamilton his WDC.

Try reading page 2 of this thread where the top speeds of the cars at various points around the track were detailed. At none of those were the Mercs the fastest cars, so, what 'performance advantage being doubled' are you talking about? Clearly there is none.

Mercedes average advantage to the field is 0.5% season to date, in Brazil it was 1%. I’m not talking about top speed.

[TheDeuce]

Piginapoke said:

MustangGT said:

Piginapoke said:

For a car to double (!) its performance advantage overnight is unheard of and will likely win Hamilton his WDC.

Try reading page 2 of this thread where the top speeds of the cars at various points around the track were detailed. At none of those were the Mercs the fastest cars, so, what 'performance advantage being doubled' are you talking about? Clearly there is none.

Mercedes average advantage to the field is 0.5% season to date, in Brazil it was 1%. I’m not talking about top speed.

Is that level of increase unheard of though? For all we know it's a combination of a 2% power increase combined with some bright spark finally getting fully on top of their aero package + a circuit that suited them better than most. Or perhaps RB just failed in their setup a little.

That sort of difference has definitely happened several time before in recent F1 history. How many % points of relative performance must Williams have improved by compared to their farcical 2019 car

[vdn]

TheDeuce said:

Piginapoke said:

MustangGT said:

Piginapoke said:

For a car to double (!) its performance advantage overnight is unheard of and will likely win Hamilton his WDC.

Try reading page 2 of this thread where the top speeds of the cars at various points around the track were detailed. At none of those were the Mercs the fastest cars, so, what 'performance advantage being doubled' are you talking about? Clearly there is none.

Mercedes average advantage to the field is 0.5% season to date, in Brazil it was 1%. I’m not talking about top speed.

Is that level of increase unheard of though? For all we know it's a combination of a 2% power increase combined with some bright spark finally getting fully on top of their aero package + a circuit that suited them better than most. Or perhaps RB just failed in their setup a little.

That sort of difference has definitely happened several time before in recent F1 history. How many % points of relative performance must Williams have improved by compared to their farcical 2019 car

Yes, pingapoke is just being daft.

[Piginapoke]

vdn said:

TheDeuce said:

Piginapoke said:

MustangGT said:

Piginapoke said:

For a car to double (!) its performance advantage overnight is unheard of and will likely win Hamilton his WDC.

Try reading page 2 of this thread where the top speeds of the cars at various points around the track were detailed. At none of those were the Mercs the fastest cars, so, what 'performance advantage being doubled' are you talking about? Clearly there is none.

Mercedes average advantage to the field is 0.5% season to date, in Brazil it was 1%. I’m not talking about top speed.

Is that level of increase unheard of though? For all we know it's a combination of a 2% power increase combined with some bright spark finally getting fully on top of their aero package + a circuit that suited them better than most. Or perhaps RB just failed in their setup a little.

That sort of difference has definitely happened several time before in recent F1 history. How many % points of relative performance must Williams have improved by compared to their farcical 2019 car

Yes, pingapoke is just being daft.

So you don’t think Hamilton overtaking 24 of 25 cars on the straight, and turn 1, was a bit odd.

Also, let’s try and be nice.

[TheDeuce]

Piginapoke said:

vdn said:

TheDeuce said:

Piginapoke said:

MustangGT said:

Piginapoke said:

For a car to double (!) its performance advantage overnight is unheard of and will likely win Hamilton his WDC.

Try reading page 2 of this thread where the top speeds of the cars at various points around the track were detailed. At none of those were the Mercs the fastest cars, so, what 'performance advantage being doubled' are you talking about? Clearly there is none.

Mercedes average advantage to the field is 0.5% season to date, in Brazil it was 1%. I’m not talking about top speed.

Is that level of increase unheard of though? For all we know it's a combination of a 2% power increase combined with some bright spark finally getting fully on top of their aero package + a circuit that suited them better than most. Or perhaps RB just failed in their setup a little.

That sort of difference has definitely happened several time before in recent F1 history. How many % points of relative performance must Williams have improved by compared to their farcical 2019 car

Yes, pingapoke is just being daft.

So you don’t think Hamilton overtaking 24 of 25 cars on the straight, and turn 1, was a bit odd.

Also, let’s try and be nice.

He was, on the day, in easily the fastest car on a circuit that makes overtaking pretty straight forward. Also... much as it displeases you... he is Lewis Hamilton. His recovery drives have always been epic and near faultless.

It's like shaking a box of different sized pebbles and being surprised that the larger ones rise to the top - of course they do.

[2fast748]

Motorsport.com have detailed Red Bull's gripe with the Merc rear wing, it comes down to witness marks suggesting one of the elements is flexing.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why-red-bull-is...

[vdn]

Piginapoke said:

vdn said:

TheDeuce said:

Piginapoke said:

MustangGT said:

Piginapoke said:

For a car to double (!) its performance advantage overnight is unheard of and will likely win Hamilton his WDC.

Try reading page 2 of this thread where the top speeds of the cars at various points around the track were detailed. At none of those were the Mercs the fastest cars, so, what 'performance advantage being doubled' are you talking about? Clearly there is none.

Mercedes average advantage to the field is 0.5% season to date, in Brazil it was 1%. I’m not talking about top speed.

Is that level of increase unheard of though? For all we know it's a combination of a 2% power increase combined with some bright spark finally getting fully on top of their aero package + a circuit that suited them better than most. Or perhaps RB just failed in their setup a little.

That sort of difference has definitely happened several time before in recent F1 history. How many % points of relative performance must Williams have improved by compared to their farcical 2019 car

Yes, pingapoke is just being daft.

So you don’t think Hamilton overtaking 24 of 25 cars on the straight, and turn 1, was a bit odd.

Also, let’s try and be nice.

Best driver in the best car puts on a masterclass...
odd might not be the word but basically, you have the holy trinity of driver / car / performance on the day ...
getting an odd / unexpected / extraordinary result.

[_Al_]

2fast748 said:

Motorsport.com have detailed Red Bull's gripe with the Merc rear wing, it comes down to witness marks suggesting one of the elements is flexing.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why-red-bull-is...

Thanks for that - hadn’t heard or seen it. The “score mark” is an interesting feature, and it’s hard to imagine what could have caused it.

The one picture in the article doesn’t look like it supports red bull’s case to me. The shape of the score mark would need the wing to pivot around a point where there is no obvious way for that to happen.

[rscott]

_Al_ said:

2fast748 said:

Motorsport.com have detailed Red Bull's gripe with the Merc rear wing, it comes down to witness marks suggesting one of the elements is flexing.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why-red-bull-is...

Thanks for that - hadn’t heard or seen it. The “score mark” is an interesting feature, and it’s hard to imagine what could have caused it.

The one picture in the article doesn’t look like it supports red bull’s case to me. The shape of the score mark would need the wing to pivot around a point where there is no obvious way for that to happen.

I'd love Lewis to walk up to the wing after FP3 and wipe off the marks, if they really are emulsification.

[gt_12345]

2fast748 said:

Motorsport.com have detailed Red Bull's gripe with the Merc rear wing, it comes down to witness marks suggesting one of the elements is flexing.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why-red-bull-is...

Thank you. This is EXACTLY why i started this thread.

[LostM135idriver]

I’ve looked more closely at the picture and I think it might just be verstappen’s fingerprints rather than scoring.

[Hazmat1]

Do how does the vertical carbon end plate of the wing buckle to give a witness mark on the outer wing when there is zero sign of distortion on the main wing and it’s end plate?

Yes there is a gap between wing and the outer end plate but diffused air with debris leaves marks.

The abrasions just don’t add up, the deflection would be massive and the angles don’t make sense, the main plane would need to buckle a vertical carbon end plate structure.

[jimothyc]

Surely a photographer with a decent lens, positioned just before the braking area of the main straight at any track would have picked this up. So why aren’t there any more damning photos than a smudge that could be anything. Flexing would be quite visible from the rear.

[LostM135idriver]

It could potentially be something as simple as marks from a different main plane profile being used on the same end plate at a different circuit.

[Tommo87]

Piginapoke said:

vdn said:

TheDeuce said:

Piginapoke said:

MustangGT said:

Piginapoke said:

For a car to double (!) its performance advantage overnight is unheard of and will likely win Hamilton his WDC.

Try reading page 2 of this thread where the top speeds of the cars at various points around the track were detailed. At none of those were the Mercs the fastest cars, so, what 'performance advantage being doubled' are you talking about? Clearly there is none.

Mercedes average advantage to the field is 0.5% season to date, in Brazil it was 1%. I’m not talking about top speed.

Is that level of increase unheard of though? For all we know it's a combination of a 2% power increase combined with some bright spark finally getting fully on top of their aero package + a circuit that suited them better than most. Or perhaps RB just failed in their setup a little.

That sort of difference has definitely happened several time before in recent F1 history. How many % points of relative performance must Williams have improved by compared to their farcical 2019 car

Yes, pingapoke is just being daft.

So you don’t think Hamilton overtaking 24 of 25 cars on the straight, and turn 1, was a bit odd.

Also, let’s try and be nice.

Hasn’t the performance drop in older engines contributed?

Mercedes themselves have openly said their engines have an issue with loosing power as they get older.
The new engine that they fitted therefore must have contributed to the extra performance.
We also don’ know (nobody on this forum), if the other engine manufacturers see the same levels of degradation, as they aren’t openly talking about it.

[JoelH]

MustangGT said:

Try reading page 2 of this thread where the top speeds of the cars at various points around the track were detailed. At none of those were the Mercs the fastest cars, so, what 'performance advantage being doubled' are you talking about? Clearly there is none.

I don't have a particular axe to grind but top speeds on their own are pretty meaningless. The wing level is an important part of the data which isn't shown.

The only way to truly know if there is an "issue" is to compare relative speeds between cars with known wing levels and to know where the car was in relation to other cars when those speeds were recorded.

At the end of the day the teams have hugely sophisticated software models that can accurately predict speeds for engine power, wing levels etc.

Wolffs reply to Horner querying the scores on the endplates was interesting :- "I think it's within what is allowed, and, therefore, that's okay.”

Edited by JoelH on Saturday 20th November 09:40

[Hazmat1]

When the Honda powered glasly is over 20kmh faster than max as well as all the other Honda powered cars it points at something other than oh nasty Mercedes are too fast..

[Megaflow]

jimothyc said:

Surely a photographer with a decent lens, positioned just before the braking area of the main straight at any track would have picked this up. So why aren’t there any more damning photos than a smudge that could be anything. Flexing would be quite visible from the rear.

Red Bull’s theory is that only the very tip of the main plane is flexing downwards, but it is hidden by the top flap, so can’t be seen by the on board camera and the FIA’s rear wing dots.

[jimothyc]

Megaflow said:

jimothyc said:

Surely a photographer with a decent lens, positioned just before the braking area of the main straight at any track would have picked this up. So why aren’t there any more damning photos than a smudge that could be anything. Flexing would be quite visible from the rear.

Red Bull’s theory is that only the very tip of the main plane is flexing downwards, but it is hidden by the top flap, so can’t be seen by the on board camera and the FIA’s rear wing dots.

I'm not talking about the onboard cameras. I'm talking about a trackside photographer with a decent long lens. They should be able to see enough detail to determine if there is any flexure happening between the two planes of the wing. Measurements can be taken from a digital photograph quite easily if there is a known distance nearby.