Mercedes' recent straight line speed. How? Legal?
Discussion
gt_12345 said:
You're effectively looking at one point on a velocity graph, not exactly smart.
What's wrong with that?Do you think that Mercedes are trying to hide something by driving more slowly off a corner in order to be slower in the speed trap but then magically accelerate to speeds unachievable by competitors once past the speed trap?
jsf said:
LostM135idriver said:
He did, post race interview on sky. I too thought it totally idiotic. It might just be rambling, but if not then he revealed that red bull gained useful information from what max did, and didn’t just commit a symbolic rule break.
It's also a lie because according to the official FIA report when Verstappen pushed on the wing flap, it didn't move. So how can he have judged it was more flexible?Were the FIA lying, or did CH lie?
It doesn't move much, but it does move, so much have been a hard enough push to do that. So total BS all round really - from mv, ch and stevie wonder in the stewards office.
The FIA report says the wing flap didn't move relative the onboard camera, so the car may have moved relative to the floor (in Brazil they have to chock the rear wheel to stop it rolling, that's what the FIA guy is doing with the string that lies over the rear wheel), but there wasn't enough force applied to move the wing itself.
That means Max could not measure flex with his highly calibrated arm/hand or the FIA are lying about the onboard camera footage.
If you press on a rear wing on the main plain, what tends to move first is the suspension, unless you have extremely stiff springs and dampers and the wing mount is more flexible than the suspension is soft at low speed inputs (the dampers are valved to be soft in low speed to ride the kerbs, so its mainly spring force on these cars you are feeling when you push on them). If you press down on a flap, that tends to move without the main wing moving.
That means Max could not measure flex with his highly calibrated arm/hand or the FIA are lying about the onboard camera footage.
If you press on a rear wing on the main plain, what tends to move first is the suspension, unless you have extremely stiff springs and dampers and the wing mount is more flexible than the suspension is soft at low speed inputs (the dampers are valved to be soft in low speed to ride the kerbs, so its mainly spring force on these cars you are feeling when you push on them). If you press down on a flap, that tends to move without the main wing moving.
Jasandjules said:
What is amusing to me is that if we are right, Merc could just build their engines with this level of power and take the Grid Drops at circuits they can overtake on then absolutely fly !
If they kept as they were, they wouldn't win either WDC or WCC. The car isn't being developed and hasn't been for some time. Turning up the wick on the engine gives them a fighting chance.Brainpox said:
Jasandjules said:
What is amusing to me is that if we are right, Merc could just build their engines with this level of power and take the Grid Drops at circuits they can overtake on then absolutely fly !
If they kept as they were, they wouldn't win either WDC or WCC. The car isn't being developed and hasn't been for some time. Turning up the wick on the engine gives them a fighting chance.And it's not necessarily an entirely blind gamble either. They have used Bottas' early retired PU's to test the break point I suspect - which gives them a great deal of insight in to how hard they can actually push their PU.
If it's well judged, they could remain effectively unbeatable in performance terms this season. It does appear that the Honda unit is already at it's safe operating limit so they can't follow Merc down this path.
Also of note is the fact that Mercedes seem to now be fully on top of their car and it's behaviour. The way it politely and usefully 'sits down' at speed is almost majestic in it's perfection, it's like an instantaneous switch in posture, vs the more crude and gradual response of the high rake RB. Merc are making headway with that aspect in terms of outright speed even without extra power.
If Lewis's car doesn't go bang, I wouldn't rule them out for taking both titles. In fact, I'd uprate my previous predictions to saying it's now 50/50.
TheDeuce said:
I think this is broadly accurate. It's a sink or swim solution. They exchange the possibility of a DNF and instant failure to secure the titles, for the ability to perhaps secure one or both titles.
And it's not necessarily an entirely blind gamble either. They have used Bottas' early retired PU's to test the break point I suspect - which gives them a great deal of insight in to how hard they can actually push their PU.
If it's well judged, they could remain effectively unbeatable in performance terms this season. It does appear that the Honda unit is already at it's safe operating limit so they can't follow Merc down this path.
Also of note is the fact that Mercedes seem to now be fully on top of their car and it's behaviour. The way it politely and usefully 'sits down' at speed is almost majestic in it's perfection, it's like an instantaneous switch in posture, vs the more crude and gradual response of the high rake RB. Merc are making headway with that aspect in terms of outright speed even without extra power.
If Lewis's car doesn't go bang, I wouldn't rule them out for taking both titles. In fact, I'd uprate my previous predictions to saying it's now 50/50.
I know, it's depressing isn't it.And it's not necessarily an entirely blind gamble either. They have used Bottas' early retired PU's to test the break point I suspect - which gives them a great deal of insight in to how hard they can actually push their PU.
If it's well judged, they could remain effectively unbeatable in performance terms this season. It does appear that the Honda unit is already at it's safe operating limit so they can't follow Merc down this path.
Also of note is the fact that Mercedes seem to now be fully on top of their car and it's behaviour. The way it politely and usefully 'sits down' at speed is almost majestic in it's perfection, it's like an instantaneous switch in posture, vs the more crude and gradual response of the high rake RB. Merc are making headway with that aspect in terms of outright speed even without extra power.
If Lewis's car doesn't go bang, I wouldn't rule them out for taking both titles. In fact, I'd uprate my previous predictions to saying it's now 50/50.
Piginapoke said:
TheDeuce said:
I think this is broadly accurate. It's a sink or swim solution. They exchange the possibility of a DNF and instant failure to secure the titles, for the ability to perhaps secure one or both titles.
And it's not necessarily an entirely blind gamble either. They have used Bottas' early retired PU's to test the break point I suspect - which gives them a great deal of insight in to how hard they can actually push their PU.
If it's well judged, they could remain effectively unbeatable in performance terms this season. It does appear that the Honda unit is already at it's safe operating limit so they can't follow Merc down this path.
Also of note is the fact that Mercedes seem to now be fully on top of their car and it's behaviour. The way it politely and usefully 'sits down' at speed is almost majestic in it's perfection, it's like an instantaneous switch in posture, vs the more crude and gradual response of the high rake RB. Merc are making headway with that aspect in terms of outright speed even without extra power.
If Lewis's car doesn't go bang, I wouldn't rule them out for taking both titles. In fact, I'd uprate my previous predictions to saying it's now 50/50.
I know, it's depressing isn't it.And it's not necessarily an entirely blind gamble either. They have used Bottas' early retired PU's to test the break point I suspect - which gives them a great deal of insight in to how hard they can actually push their PU.
If it's well judged, they could remain effectively unbeatable in performance terms this season. It does appear that the Honda unit is already at it's safe operating limit so they can't follow Merc down this path.
Also of note is the fact that Mercedes seem to now be fully on top of their car and it's behaviour. The way it politely and usefully 'sits down' at speed is almost majestic in it's perfection, it's like an instantaneous switch in posture, vs the more crude and gradual response of the high rake RB. Merc are making headway with that aspect in terms of outright speed even without extra power.
If Lewis's car doesn't go bang, I wouldn't rule them out for taking both titles. In fact, I'd uprate my previous predictions to saying it's now 50/50.
rscott said:
Piginapoke said:
TheDeuce said:
I think this is broadly accurate. It's a sink or swim solution. They exchange the possibility of a DNF and instant failure to secure the titles, for the ability to perhaps secure one or both titles.
And it's not necessarily an entirely blind gamble either. They have used Bottas' early retired PU's to test the break point I suspect - which gives them a great deal of insight in to how hard they can actually push their PU.
If it's well judged, they could remain effectively unbeatable in performance terms this season. It does appear that the Honda unit is already at it's safe operating limit so they can't follow Merc down this path.
Also of note is the fact that Mercedes seem to now be fully on top of their car and it's behaviour. The way it politely and usefully 'sits down' at speed is almost majestic in it's perfection, it's like an instantaneous switch in posture, vs the more crude and gradual response of the high rake RB. Merc are making headway with that aspect in terms of outright speed even without extra power.
If Lewis's car doesn't go bang, I wouldn't rule them out for taking both titles. In fact, I'd uprate my previous predictions to saying it's now 50/50.
I know, it's depressing isn't it.And it's not necessarily an entirely blind gamble either. They have used Bottas' early retired PU's to test the break point I suspect - which gives them a great deal of insight in to how hard they can actually push their PU.
If it's well judged, they could remain effectively unbeatable in performance terms this season. It does appear that the Honda unit is already at it's safe operating limit so they can't follow Merc down this path.
Also of note is the fact that Mercedes seem to now be fully on top of their car and it's behaviour. The way it politely and usefully 'sits down' at speed is almost majestic in it's perfection, it's like an instantaneous switch in posture, vs the more crude and gradual response of the high rake RB. Merc are making headway with that aspect in terms of outright speed even without extra power.
If Lewis's car doesn't go bang, I wouldn't rule them out for taking both titles. In fact, I'd uprate my previous predictions to saying it's now 50/50.
If this is all true (which is seems to be) then I think Mercedes deserve massive respect for engineering their way out of their perceived performance deficit. I'm really glad that Red Bull have had the faster car and that Max has led the championship for so much of the season, but this really does make things interesting.
Byker28i said:
Merc have been clever, taken new engines into the pool with the penalty then turned them upto 11. We know they were running them significantly down for life expectancy, all they've done is pushed them back towards qualifying mode again.
It's true, but I think it's moot whether the previous engines actually failed, or whether it was all about Merc setting this up for the end of the season. I think it's pushing the sporting regs to the absolute limit.Piginapoke said:
Jasandjules said:
What is amusing to me is that if we are right, Merc could just build their engines with this level of power and take the Grid Drops at circuits they can overtake on then absolutely fly !
Just like on Sunday.Frankly it seems to me that the FIA changing the rules on Aero have basically forced Merc into this position and now next season it is a viable tactic for them (subject to who wins the new regs battle of course)
Noise I am talking about can be heard here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icesjjvN6Sc&t=...
When the "lap 17" graphics come onto the screen is when its most audible.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icesjjvN6Sc&t=...
When the "lap 17" graphics come onto the screen is when its most audible.
Piginapoke said:
Byker28i said:
Merc have been clever, taken new engines into the pool with the penalty then turned them upto 11. We know they were running them significantly down for life expectancy, all they've done is pushed them back towards qualifying mode again.
It's true, but I think it's moot whether the previous engines actually failed, or whether it was all about Merc setting this up for the end of the season. I think it's pushing the sporting regs to the absolute limit.n3il123 said:
Piginapoke said:
I think it's pushing the sporting regs to the absolute limit.
Erm why? they're taking a new engine and taking the penalty for it ... Piginapoke said:
It's true, but I think it's moot whether the previous engines actually failed, or whether it was all about Merc setting this up for the end of the season. I think it's pushing the sporting regs to the absolute limit.
No it isn't. They're absolutely allowed to set their power mode to whatever they wish and it's a fundamental part of the sport that they gamble performance Vs reliability.What regulation is it that you think they're skirting..?
TheDeuce said:
Piginapoke said:
It's true, but I think it's moot whether the previous engines actually failed, or whether it was all about Merc setting this up for the end of the season. I think it's pushing the sporting regs to the absolute limit.
No it isn't. They're absolutely allowed to set their power mode to whatever they wish and it's a fundamental part of the sport that they gamble performance Vs reliability.What regulation is it that you think they're skirting..?
Piginapoke said:
TheDeuce said:
Piginapoke said:
It's true, but I think it's moot whether the previous engines actually failed, or whether it was all about Merc setting this up for the end of the season. I think it's pushing the sporting regs to the absolute limit.
No it isn't. They're absolutely allowed to set their power mode to whatever they wish and it's a fundamental part of the sport that they gamble performance Vs reliability.What regulation is it that you think they're skirting..?
They're not doing anything that RB couldn't copy in principle - RB are limited only by their own ability vs Merc. The sport exists to test the abilities of each team vs one another.
If you're right and Merc/Lewis wrap up the titles, then that will be because they're simply better at the F1 game than their rivals. We hold this annual competition to work out who plays the game best do we not?
I myself am far less confident they'll get either title. I think 50/50 as there is plenty of opportunity for misfortune and I don't think the Merc has the level of pace advantage at the remaining circuits that it had at Brazil. I think the two cars remain very close in terms of overall performance.
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