Why is the Merc a lemon this year?

Why is the Merc a lemon this year?

Author
Discussion

sparta6

3,298 posts

81 months

Friday 24th June
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
sparta6 said:
The driver contributes to the car getting points.

How does the driver contribute to component failure ?

In this software heavy era the drivers cannot over rev / bust a clutch.
There's more to a drivers contribution to the risk of mechanical defects than just rev limits

Even with a software packed car, the driver has a huge part to play in risks to reliability, in what could be rolled up to "mechanical sympathy"

Remember that these cars do not have traction control, and the way that a driver will attack a corner and kerbs, with the gearbox and clutch and engine loaded up, and potentially spinning tyres and then snatching for grip will have a huge part to play in the reliability that a team will see.

Any car of any kind can be broken by a clumsy and ham fisted driver
So Leclerc broke the car ?

mat205125

16,848 posts

194 months

Monday 27th June
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
mat205125 said:
sparta6 said:
The driver contributes to the car getting points.

How does the driver contribute to component failure ?

In this software heavy era the drivers cannot over rev / bust a clutch.
There's more to a drivers contribution to the risk of mechanical defects than just rev limits

Even with a software packed car, the driver has a huge part to play in risks to reliability, in what could be rolled up to "mechanical sympathy"

Remember that these cars do not have traction control, and the way that a driver will attack a corner and kerbs, with the gearbox and clutch and engine loaded up, and potentially spinning tyres and then snatching for grip will have a huge part to play in the reliability that a team will see.

Any car of any kind can be broken by a clumsy and ham fisted driver
So Leclerc broke the car ?
I'd say most likely not, however only Ferrari internal team will know if there was contributory influences.

Does everything for you need to be so binary?

Can you not comprehend a world where there are many factors influencing many effects, and noting is ever 100% all in, or all out

sparta6

3,298 posts

81 months

Monday 27th June
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
sparta6 said:
mat205125 said:
sparta6 said:
The driver contributes to the car getting points.

How does the driver contribute to component failure ?

In this software heavy era the drivers cannot over rev / bust a clutch.
There's more to a drivers contribution to the risk of mechanical defects than just rev limits

Even with a software packed car, the driver has a huge part to play in risks to reliability, in what could be rolled up to "mechanical sympathy"

Remember that these cars do not have traction control, and the way that a driver will attack a corner and kerbs, with the gearbox and clutch and engine loaded up, and potentially spinning tyres and then snatching for grip will have a huge part to play in the reliability that a team will see.

Any car of any kind can be broken by a clumsy and ham fisted driver
So Leclerc broke the car ?
Can you not comprehend a world where there are many factors influencing many effects, and noting is ever 100% all in, or all out
try that one with the Abu Dhabi cry babies wink

MustangGT

9,584 posts

261 months

Monday 27th June
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
The driver contributes to the car getting points.

How does the driver contribute to component failure ?



In this software heavy era the drivers cannot over rev / bust a clutch.
Simple, driving over kerbs will contribute to component failure, so will crashing the car.

Blib

39,856 posts

178 months

Tuesday 28th June
quotequote all
Finally, a smooth race track. The Mercs could well be a bit closer to the front this weekend.

sparta6

3,298 posts

81 months

Tuesday 28th June
quotequote all
Oilchange said:
sparta6 said:
So Leclerc broke the car ?
The reason the car broke will be whatever Ferrari want you to think it is. Whether or not it’s the real reason.
What it actually is won’t be released to the likes of you and me. It’s how it works, has done for years, haven’t you worked it out yet?
Ahhh, so the rules are fair. Leclerc should get kicked down the grid due to a MGU-H / turbo failure, thus denying F1 a decent champiosnhip battle.

MBS therefore has nothing to tidy up

mat205125

16,848 posts

194 months

Tuesday 28th June
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
Ahhh, so the rules are fair. Leclerc should get kicked down the grid due to a MGU-H / turbo failure, thus denying F1 a decent champiosnhip battle.

MBS therefore has nothing to tidy up
Max and Checo will have the same before the year is out

sparta6

3,298 posts

81 months

Tuesday 28th June
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
sparta6 said:
Ahhh, so the rules are fair. Leclerc should get kicked down the grid due to a MGU-H / turbo failure, thus denying F1 a decent champiosnhip battle.

MBS therefore has nothing to tidy up
Max and Checo will have the same before the year is out
it's not the best way to decide a WDC

Blib

39,856 posts

178 months

Tuesday 28th June
quotequote all
sparta6 said:
mat205125 said:
sparta6 said:
Ahhh, so the rules are fair. Leclerc should get kicked down the grid due to a MGU-H / turbo failure, thus denying F1 a decent champiosnhip battle.

MBS therefore has nothing to tidy up
Max and Checo will have the same before the year is out
it's not the best way to decide a WDC
It's in the rules that they agreed to abide by.

Teppic

6,553 posts

238 months

Monday 12th September
quotequote all
Bump.

I’m beginning to think that this will be the first season since they won the final race at Jerez in 1997 that a Mercedes powered car hasn’t won a race.

That would make it the first time in 25 years. Shocking.

Dingu

1,937 posts

11 months

Monday 12th September
quotequote all
Teppic said:
Bump.

I’m beginning to think that this will be the first season since they won the final race at Jerez in 1997 that a Mercedes powered car hasn’t won a race.

That would make it the first time in 25 years. Shocking.
Ferrari didn’t win in 2020 or 2021 so it’s certainly possible for a top team to have a spell without winning. It was always going to happen eventually, sport is typically cyclical with a few exceptions perhaps.

heebeegeetee

27,897 posts

229 months

Monday 12th September
quotequote all
Teppic said:
Bump.

I’m beginning to think that this will be the first season since they won the final race at Jerez in 1997 that a Mercedes powered car hasn’t won a race.

That would make it the first time in 25 years. Shocking.
Agreed.

On the other hand they're not a vast amount of points behind Ferrari, and there's still a good number of races left.

Durzel

11,470 posts

149 months

Monday 12th September
quotequote all
I don't know why people have to talk in absolutes with this stuff, even the thread title talks about it being "a lemon".

Mercedes seemed to solve the porpoising problem pretty quickly all things considered, which is a remarkable feat really. They don't have a lemon car, they just have a car that isn't quite as fast as the RBR and possibly the Ferrari. The roles were reversed a couple of years ago.

It seems to be that it stands to reason that in Formula 1 - the pinnacle of motorsport - there is always going to be one or maybe two teams that happen to build the perfect car for the current regulations, with everyone else getting really close, but "really close" in F1 terms means you're down the field.

patmahe

5,545 posts

185 months

Monday 12th September
quotequote all
Budget cap, they have often started a season on the back foot but spent their way out of it, not an option this year.

As a side note I think the budget cap is one of the best things to happen to F1 in years, stops an arms race and gives smaller teams (who may be better at budgeting) more of a chance if they spend in the right areas.

F1 is no longer about who has the most money, but who uses it best, human talent and innovation rather than facilities is starting to matter more and more again and that is to be applauded

Zarco

15,638 posts

190 months

Monday 12th September
quotequote all
Durzel said:
I don't know why people have to talk in absolutes with this stuff, even the thread title talks about it being "a lemon".

Mercedes seemed to solve the porpoising problem pretty quickly all things considered, which is a remarkable feat really. They don't have a lemon car, they just have a car that isn't quite as fast as the RBR and possibly the Ferrari. The roles were reversed a couple of years ago.

It seems to be that it stands to reason that in Formula 1 - the pinnacle of motorsport - there is always going to be one or maybe two teams that happen to build the perfect car for the current regulations, with everyone else getting really close, but "really close" in F1 terms means you're down the field.
yes

I think they'll be back next year with a better aero concept.


entropy

4,849 posts

184 months

Monday 12th September
quotequote all
Zarco said:
yes

I think they'll be back next year with a better aero concept.
And chassis. They underestimated how good the Pirelli tyres would be for this year. It takes them a while to get them up to the optimum window and has allowed them to do long stints.

rscott

13,482 posts

172 months

Monday 12th September
quotequote all
patmahe said:
Budget cap, they have often started a season on the back foot but spent their way out of it, not an option this year.

As a side note I think the budget cap is one of the best things to happen to F1 in years, stops an arms race and gives smaller teams (who may be better at budgeting) more of a chance if they spend in the right areas.

F1 is no longer about who has the most money, but who uses it best, human talent and innovation rather than facilities is starting to matter more and more again and that is to be applauded
I think the fact that the budget varies depending on championship position will help close the gaps over time.

Although they do need to look at the some of the tricks used to work around the cap - it's suggested that several of the big Red Bull technical salaries are paid by Red Bull Powertrains, who aren't covered by the cap. I'm sure if they're doing it, other teams will either copy them or force a rule change

MustangGT

9,584 posts

261 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
rscott said:
I think the fact that the budget varies depending on championship position will help close the gaps over time.
?? I thought the budget cap was uniform, but wind tunnel time reduced for the top teams. Obviously the smaller teams do not have enough budget to meet the cap so can only spend what they have.

Muzzer79

6,871 posts

168 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
Teppic said:
Bump.

I’m beginning to think that this will be the first season since they won the final race at Jerez in 1997 that a Mercedes powered car hasn’t won a race.

That would make it the first time in 25 years. Shocking.
It's not really shocking. It was quite predictable that they were going to have at least one lean year after dominating for so long.

I thought Red Bull would struggle a bit too after the effort they poured into 2021, but Newey seems to definitely know his ground effect (unsurprisingly)

Question for Mercedes is if this is a one-season blip (like Ferrari in 2005) or if this the start of a decline (like Ferrari in 2009)

rscott

13,482 posts

172 months

Tuesday 13th September
quotequote all
MustangGT said:
rscott said:
I think the fact that the budget varies depending on championship position will help close the gaps over time.
?? I thought the budget cap was uniform, but wind tunnel time reduced for the top teams. Obviously the smaller teams do not have enough budget to meet the cap so can only spend what they have.
You might be right - it could well just be a windtunnel allowance.