Why is the Merc a lemon this year?

Why is the Merc a lemon this year?

Author
Discussion

Chamon_Lee

3,163 posts

128 months

Tuesday 13th September
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Do you think merc will stick with the design they have or switch it to a design more akin to the other teams.


paulguitar

17,139 posts

94 months

Tuesday 13th September
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Muzzer79 said:
It's not really shocking. It was quite predictable that they were going to have at least one lean year after dominating for so long.

I thought Red Bull would struggle a bit too after the effort they poured into 2021, but Newey seems to definitely know his ground effect (unsurprisingly)

Question for Mercedes is if this is a one-season blip (like Ferrari in 2005) or if this the start of a decline (like Ferrari in 2009)
I saw an interesting interview with Lewis sometime over the weekend where he was saying apparently Mercedes knows specifically what the main issue is and is trying to sort it in time for 2023. I really, really hope they can, and Lewis has a chance to win his 8th title. (Again). The shame on the sport caused by the Abu Dhabi debacle might at least diminish slightly if Hamilton retires with that final WDC.

PhilAsia

1,549 posts

56 months

Tuesday 13th September
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paulguitar said:
Muzzer79 said:
It's not really shocking. It was quite predictable that they were going to have at least one lean year after dominating for so long.

I thought Red Bull would struggle a bit too after the effort they poured into 2021, but Newey seems to definitely know his ground effect (unsurprisingly)

Question for Mercedes is if this is a one-season blip (like Ferrari in 2005) or if this the start of a decline (like Ferrari in 2009)
I saw an interesting interview with Lewis sometime over the weekend where he was saying apparently Mercedes knows specifically what the main issue is and is trying to sort it in time for 2023. I really, really hope they can, and Lewis has a chance to win his 8th title. (Again). The shame on the sport caused by the Abu Dhabi debacle might at least diminish slightly if Hamilton retires with that final WDC.
It would ease the irritation somewhat, seeing as RB is such a rocketship. I have my doubts that it can be done though as IMHO all the stars were aligned for RB dominance.

HustleRussell

22,132 posts

141 months

Tuesday 13th September
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Durzel said:
I don't know why people have to talk in absolutes with this stuff, even the thread title talks about it being "a lemon".

Mercedes seemed to solve the porpoising problem pretty quickly all things considered, which is a remarkable feat really. They don't have a lemon car, they just have a car that isn't quite as fast as the RBR and possibly the Ferrari. The roles were reversed a couple of years ago.

It seems to be that it stands to reason that in Formula 1 - the pinnacle of motorsport - there is always going to be one or maybe two teams that happen to build the perfect car for the current regulations, with everyone else getting really close, but "really close" in F1 terms means you're down the field.
I was reading this thread yesterday and thinking along similar lines. It's actually quite surprising that Mercedes have taken such a tumble but are still clear of the traditional 'best of the rest'- 4th in the constructors and downwards. Every team on the grid will be taking an interest in design details on the Mercedes. If the Mercedes is a lemon then six teams must be doing very poor work?

PhilAsia

1,549 posts

56 months

Tuesday 13th September
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HustleRussell said:
I was reading this thread yesterday and thinking along similar lines. It's actually quite surprising that Mercedes have taken such a tumble but are still clear of the traditional 'best of the rest'- 4th in the constructors and downwards. Every team on the grid will be taking an interest in design details on the Mercedes. If the Mercedes is a lemon then six teams must be doing very poor work?
Perhaps the MB is more essence of lemon...

entropy

4,849 posts

184 months

Tuesday 13th September
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Muzzer79 said:
Question for Mercedes is if this is a one-season blip (like Ferrari in 2005) or if this the start of a decline (like Ferrari in 2009)
Good question.

Feels like Merc are a step behind their rivals who most likely build an evolution of this year's car for 2023 whereas Merc's would most likely be more of a revolution with a clean sheet of paper. I'd be eyeing 2024 for a WDC fightback but will be seriously impressed if they're quick straight out of the box next year.

Bo_apex

1,780 posts

199 months

Tuesday 13th September
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HustleRussell said:
I was reading this thread yesterday and thinking along similar lines. It's actually quite surprising that Mercedes have taken such a tumble but are still clear of the traditional 'best of the rest'- 4th in the constructors and downwards. Every team on the grid will be taking an interest in design details on the Mercedes. If the Mercedes is a lemon then six teams must be doing very poor work?
Merc is a long way from being a lemon.

1st to 3rd is not a big tumble unlike Williams descent to the bottom layer. Can Williams ever get back to the top ? Probably not






mat205125

16,848 posts

194 months

Tuesday 13th September
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Teppic said:
Bump.

I’m beginning to think that this will be the first season since they won the final race at Jerez in 1997 that a Mercedes powered car hasn’t won a race.

That would make it the first time in 25 years. Shocking.
I almost guarantee that Mercedes WILL win a race before the year is out.

We're heading away to the billiard table smooth, high ambient temperature venues where Mercedes have historically excelled. Sure there have been anomalies like Singapore, where there have been weird years that they've failed to "switch the tyres on", but the middle east rounds especially have been a good hunting ground.

With the smooth flat circuits coming, I can see Mercedes being the second strongest team in points haul for the remaining quarter (and a bit) of the season

Big question is, which driver will have the stars align and take advantage where circumstances or problems for the other teams give them that chance.

mat205125

16,848 posts

194 months

Tuesday 13th September
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Chamon_Lee said:
Do you think merc will stick with the design they have or switch it to a design more akin to the other teams.
I think that 2023 will be an evolution year for all teams, as the impact of scrapping a concept and starting again are too drastic in this era of cost caps, and limited wind tunnel and CFD testing.

People are obsessed with the sidepod concepts, however that's only one piece of the puzzle.

Given the objectives of the new rules to simplify the car aero, I'm genuinely amazed (and impressed) with how detailed and complicated all concepts have evolved to be this year ...... The Merc is particularly "busy", as has traditionally been their way, which this shot at Spa neatly illustrates,


paulguitar

17,139 posts

94 months

Tuesday 13th September
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mat205125 said:
I don't reckon that's the quickest way around that corner.




jondude

2,248 posts

198 months

Wednesday 21st September
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I think the 'new champion' bounce plays in, too. By that I mean Verstappen now seems to be getting 1-2 seconds more out of any car due to his extra confidence (and more likely relaxed attitude now)

The Mercedes is a little off the pace but Verstappen makes it seem worse than it is.

FourGears

109 posts

36 months

Wednesday 21st September
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I think the issue is less the car is a lemon and more it has a teeny tiny operating window which the team cannot find.

The car was described as a diva in previous year in terms of set up. I think there is some truth to that.

So I think they have a car which they cannot get in to the optimum operating window as it is too small. If they have the same issue next year I expect Allison to be moved on.



Blib

39,856 posts

178 months

Wednesday 21st September
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Wouldn't surprise me if the pod less concept is just a one year deal, with a more conservative car appearing next season.

StevieBee

11,258 posts

236 months

Wednesday 21st September
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entropy said:
Muzzer79 said:
Question for Mercedes is if this is a one-season blip (like Ferrari in 2005) or if this the start of a decline (like Ferrari in 2009)
Good question.

Feels like Merc are a step behind their rivals who most likely build an evolution of this year's car for 2023 whereas Merc's would most likely be more of a revolution with a clean sheet of paper. I'd be eyeing 2024 for a WDC fightback but will be seriously impressed if they're quick straight out of the box next year.
It's been widely reported that Mercedes have been loosing a fair few key staff, mainly from Brixworth (engine) to Red Bull but a number of key aero people too. This started pre-covid and I suspect the effect is only now being felt. Whilst it's true that no team is reliant upon any single individual - they often are (it would be difficult to think of Red Bull being what they are now were Newey to go). So as to whether it's a blip or the start of a decline depends upon the quality of those who've come in to replace those who've left.

mat205125

16,848 posts

194 months

Wednesday 21st September
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Blib said:
Wouldn't surprise me if the pod less concept is just a one year deal, with a more conservative car appearing next season.
Quite possibly, however I think we put too much focus on the sidepods as being the fundamental issue. It's part of the package, however isn't a defining concept by any means.



rscott

13,482 posts

172 months

Wednesday 21st September
quotequote all
mat205125 said:
Chamon_Lee said:
Do you think merc will stick with the design they have or switch it to a design more akin to the other teams.
I think that 2023 will be an evolution year for all teams, as the impact of scrapping a concept and starting again are too drastic in this era of cost caps, and limited wind tunnel and CFD testing.

People are obsessed with the sidepod concepts, however that's only one piece of the puzzle.

Given the objectives of the new rules to simplify the car aero, I'm genuinely amazed (and impressed) with how detailed and complicated all concepts have evolved to be this year ...... The Merc is particularly "busy", as has traditionally been their way, which this shot at Spa neatly illustrates,

I think a lot of the busy bits are additions to try to deal with the instability and tiny setup sweet spot.

GiantCardboardPlato

252 posts

2 months

Wednesday 21st September
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entropy said:
Muzzer79 said:
Question for Mercedes is if this is a one-season blip (like Ferrari in 2005) or if this the start of a decline (like Ferrari in 2009)
Good question.

Feels like Merc are a step behind their rivals who most likely build an evolution of this year's car for 2023 whereas Merc's would most likely be more of a revolution with a clean sheet of paper. I'd be eyeing 2024 for a WDC fightback but will be seriously impressed if they're quick straight out of the box next year.
I think the second year of new regulations evolution is only going to make sense for a few teams. There are quite different concepts across the grid and teams will converge on the most successful. That will mean revolution for most.

Muzzer79

6,871 posts

168 months

Wednesday 21st September
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Blib said:
Wouldn't surprise me if the pod less concept is just a one year deal, with a more conservative car appearing next season.
I think the sidepods are a red herring and are actually a small factor on the car.

The big issue is underneath, which they need to fix.

mat205125

16,848 posts

194 months

Wednesday 21st September
quotequote all
rscott said:
I think a lot of the busy bits are additions to try to deal with the instability and tiny setup sweet spot.
Definitely

That tiny sweet spot, that appears to move around from session to session, is Mercedes biggest problem.

The common theme of discussions with Toto and the team all year has been related to "learning about the car". I'm undecided as to whether this is due primarily to the regulation changes, the concept that the team have gone down, the skills and experience that they have lost, or the budget cap that is compromising how much experimentation that they can spend their way out of problems. Probably a mixture of all.

Binning their current concept and moving close to a competitors concept won't get rid of the learning need for that car, and other teams that stay broadly on the same path will carry far more experience with them.

This weekend in Singapore will be very interesting, as the track surface and climate combinations have tripped the all conquering team up in the past, and its a bit of an anomaly in that respect as a venue.

tight fart

2,202 posts

254 months

Saturday
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Forgive me if this has been posted before but I haven’t seen it mentioned.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single...