Official 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Official 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Poll: Official 2022 Hungarian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

Total Members Polled: 158

Hamilton: 32%
Russell: 12%
Verstappen: 35%
Perez: 1%
Leclerc: 15%
Sainz: 5%
Author
Discussion

C70R

11,804 posts

84 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
TheDeuce said:
Nice round up.

To answer your question, I would assume there's some conflict in the team about what is right. Also sometimes when things go wrong repeatedly, there is also a desire to take bigger gambles to try and catch up, which if they backfire result in more difficult choices and further screw ups. I'm not just talking about the hard tyre choice, which wasn't really a choice, but what lead upto that situation and the timing.

Binotto saying that 'nothing needs to change' isn't helpful. Obviously others are doing a better job, so at some level in the team things can be improved - telling everyone that it's all fine doesn't inspire individuals in the team to analyse their role in it all.

Impossible to say what exactly is going on from the outside, but plainly something is endemic and 'sub optimal' as Toto would say.
Indeed. It's a bit like the blackjack player in a losing streak who decides to start doubling his stake to win back his losses. Never ends well.

NRS

20,247 posts

181 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
HardtopManual said:
DanielSan said:
Ferrari putting hards on Leclerc!

Niponeoff said:
Hards?....
NRS said:
Hard for Ferrari? Seems like a bad choice.
TheDeuce said:
Ferrari found a way to scupper leclerc, well done team red!
mw88 said:
Ferrari dropping another clanger on strategy?
vulture1 said:
Ahh thats how ferrari will throw it away put the crazy hards on.
jsf said:
Ferrari blown it again?
The thing that always amazes me most about Ferrari is that, on any given Sunday, a bunch of people in armchairs can spot instantly that they’ve laid a solid egg of f*ck, but the most experienced team in F1, with a team who do race strategy for a living at the pinnacle of motorsport, can’t see how bad a decision they’re making.

Does anyone have any insight into how they do it, beyond the lazy “they’re Italian” explanation?
I was one of those quoted about hards being a bad choice. Looking back, I'm not 100% sure they had much other option. The issue was earlier where they pitted early on the mediums to counter Russell, whereas they should have run their own race. The other issue was once going to hards they they abandoned that to then go to soft too.

They seem to forget what is best for them and react to the other teams too much. Mercedes has done this, but to a lesser extent. RB often use the tactics of unusual pit stop timings if they are struggling (relatively) against another team. It means they have 2 benefits - if they are out of sync and a safety car happens they might be able to jump the team ahead. The second however is that often the other team reacts to counter RB and messes up their own tactics, giving RB a far better chance. This is one of the situations where Ferrari seem to make a lot of mistakes, as they react to the other team even if on a different strategy, ending up in the worst of both worlds.

eps

5,837 posts

249 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
NRS said:
I was one of those quoted about hards being a bad choice. Looking back, I'm not 100% sure they had much other option. The issue was earlier where they pitted early on the mediums to counter Russell, whereas they should have run their own race. The other issue was once going to hards they they abandoned that to then go to soft too.

They seem to forget what is best for them and react to the other teams too much. Mercedes has done this, but to a lesser extent. RB often use the tactics of unusual pit stop timings if they are struggling (relatively) against another team. It means they have 2 benefits - if they are out of sync and a safety car happens they might be able to jump the team ahead. The second however is that often the other team reacts to counter RB and messes up their own tactics, giving RB a far better chance. This is one of the situations where Ferrari seem to make a lot of mistakes, as they react to the other team even if on a different strategy, ending up in the worst of both worlds.
Exactly. They pitted one of their cars waaaaay too early and then proceeded to do the same with the other car. It was like they were covering off something they just didn't need to cover off. Red Bull playing brilliant F1 Poker with a losing hand but bluffing Ferrari into folding. Twice!! At the very least you would have split the strategies.

Piginapoke

Original Poster:

3,592 posts

165 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
eps said:
NRS said:
I was one of those quoted about hards being a bad choice. Looking back, I'm not 100% sure they had much other option. The issue was earlier where they pitted early on the mediums to counter Russell, whereas they should have run their own race. The other issue was once going to hards they they abandoned that to then go to soft too.

They seem to forget what is best for them and react to the other teams too much. Mercedes has done this, but to a lesser extent. RB often use the tactics of unusual pit stop timings if they are struggling (relatively) against another team. It means they have 2 benefits - if they are out of sync and a safety car happens they might be able to jump the team ahead. The second however is that often the other team reacts to counter RB and messes up their own tactics, giving RB a far better chance. This is one of the situations where Ferrari seem to make a lot of mistakes, as they react to the other team even if on a different strategy, ending up in the worst of both worlds.
Exactly. They pitted one of their cars waaaaay too early and then proceeded to do the same with the other car. It was like they were covering off something they just didn't need to cover off. Red Bull playing brilliant F1 Poker with a losing hand but bluffing Ferrari into folding. Twice!! At the very least you would have split the strategies.
Not sure Red Bull had a losing hand; the RB18 was very quick on Sunday, certainly equal to the Ferraris and ahead of the Merc. Strategy and pit stops were 100% on point though and Verstappen drove a beautiful race.

SturdyHSV

9,282 posts

147 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
I'd agree with the above, it was the weirdly short Medium stint at the start, which I'm assuming was cut short as a reaction to RB pitting, which basically scuppered them.

They exacerbated that situation by then pitting Charles again with another unnecessarily short medium stint, again reacting to others pitting, and at that point it was too early to run the soft to the end, so they 'had' to go on to the hard.

It does feel like they make their strategy decisions based on other teams, it could be as simple as a lack of confidence in their own decision making (surely not? hehe) which then means when one of the strategically 'good' teams makes a decision, Ferrari panic thinking they've missed something or got the strategy wrong, and then try to react and match the other team, ultimately making a mess of their own race, time and time again.

I think Binotto is in a tough position here as the strategy team are going to be under a lot of pressure, and are going to be well aware they've gotten it wrong repeatedly. They're going to have no confidence in their own abilities, and that's going to lead to even weaker decisions.

His options are either tell them they're st and must do better, fire a few people and generally shout (the old Ferrari / Stroll method presumably), tell them they're doing great and try to excuse the mistakes to try and help build their confidence (his current approach it seems), or some sort of elusive 'middle ground' that could almost be described as good management hehe

DBSV8

5,600 posts

218 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
strange comment from coulthard after le Clerk had changed to hard tyres ,, he said Charles should trust the team.......it was not his decision to go to hards !!

NRS

20,247 posts

181 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
SturdyHSV said:
...tell them they're doing great and try to excuse the mistakes to try and help build their confidence (his current approach it seems)...
It's impossible to know without being there. A manager is very unlikely to say his people are st to the wider world. If there is stuff going on it will be internal and not in public. Just look at Alpine just now for how to mess up stuff in public!

SturdyHSV

9,282 posts

147 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
NRS said:
SturdyHSV said:
...tell them they're doing great and try to excuse the mistakes to try and help build their confidence (his current approach it seems)...
It's impossible to know without being there. A manager is very unlikely to say his people are st to the wider world. If there is stuff going on it will be internal and not in public.
Well that's fair, but then these threads would be pretty quiet without wild uninformed speculation from people with no idea what's happening internally smile

Hungrymc

6,050 posts

117 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
It is almost as if Ferrari had two different people making the decisions.
One deciding when to pit (only really looking at covering RedBull)
And another running round the back of the garage to see what tyres they could sling on.

Maybe they had some reason to believe they would have the pace they needed on the Hards? Seems unlikely I know.


MustangGT

9,488 posts

260 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
honda_exige said:
Max took Perez under braking into the chicane, it wasn't a pull over on a straight and let him past kind of deal. There wasn't a radio call, sure Perez didn't put up a fight but hardly unusual.
I have no idea what race you were watching, Checo clearly let Max pass and not be held up in any way whatsoever. He slowed down on the straight much earlier than normal.

glazbagun

12,888 posts

177 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
SturdyHSV said:
His options are either tell them they're st and must do better, fire a few people and generally shout (the old Ferrari / Stroll method presumably), tell them they're doing great and try to excuse the mistakes to try and help build their confidence (his current approach it seems), or some sort of elusive 'middle ground' that could almost be described as good management hehe
I wonder what the debriefing is like at Ferrari. Surely the questions are self evident. What did we do? why did we do it? what coulld we have done? Why didn't we?

Or is it just a squabble of finger pointing and blame shifting. Their car and engine guys are clearly working well, but I wouldn't bet against Merc passing them in the CC given the latters history of digging deep.

CoolHands

15,634 posts

175 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
Maybe the RB team are just smarter. Probably a couple of people there that can always see the big picture even in such a time-pressured environment. What do you do if your team are a bit slow?

eps

5,837 posts

249 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
CoolHands said:
Maybe the RB team are just smarter. Probably a couple of people there that can always see the big picture even in such a time-pressured environment. What do you do if your team are a bit slow?
Not sure about smarter, but they have been there before and are a bit cooler and less flappable. To be fair Merc used to do it to them.

I'm just shocked (still) at Ferrari. They would have sat down and gone "right Medium, Medium, Soft. That's our quickest strategy." Longer first stint, longer second stint and presumably a longer third stint on the Softs as the track is now fully rubbered in and the cars are lower in fuel. So RBR pit and George and they felt the need to react/cover those. You'd do it with one car but not both - split the strategy and then you can react to other influences such as the weather/rain.. or maybe they were hoping for rain which never really came. They just seemed to engineer a really bad result for themselves. RBR started P10 and P11!!! They threw away their advantage, RBR didn't gain the advantage.

But then Hungary does seem to have a track record of throwing up unexpected race results over the years.

entropy

4,789 posts

183 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
Ferrari have had a tendency to run batst strategies ever since Binotto took over.

Yazza54

16,637 posts

161 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
entropy said:
Ferrari have had a tendency to run batst strategies ever since Binotto took over.
It's a strange one, I find stuff like that often comes from people trying to steal a win, trying to be over strategic to the point of totally fking the strategy. I've seen it in various levels of Motorsport, like a fast lad (or lady!!) putting wets on cos their iPhone weather app says there's a 50% chance of rain, even when in real time it's cracking the flags.

It's one thing gambling when you are a backmarker team but to gamble when you have front running cars and drivers is really bizarre, it's like they lack confidence to trust the process and win on pace. Red bulls strategies don't tend to be anything too spectacular for example, just sensible.

Merc have been known to fk it with desperate moves from time to time as well but I've never seen anything like Ferraris woeful decision making this season.

Yazza54

16,637 posts

161 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
Durzel said:
wpa1975 said:
Headline doing a lot of heavy lifting in that article.

The guy said that last season was like a heavyweight bout and that he'd prefer not to have to go through that again. That's basically it.
Yep. There's literally nothing wrong with anything he said.

Maxdecel

530 posts

13 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
Well it wasn't the tyres nono <-Finger. From the horses mouth. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.binotto...
They surely didn't forget to factor in the lower ambient ?

entropy

4,789 posts

183 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
Yazza54 said:
Red bulls strategies don't tend to be anything too spectacular for example, just sensible.
When RBR were outright second/third best team they've taken strategic gambles/rolled the dice because when you're in a position with less to lose and stolen wins from Merc in the past. You take less risks when you're leading because you have more to lose.

Yazza54

16,637 posts

161 months

Wednesday 3rd August
quotequote all
entropy said:
Yazza54 said:
Red bulls strategies don't tend to be anything too spectacular for example, just sensible.
When RBR were outright second/third best team they've taken strategic gambles/rolled the dice because when you're in a position with less to lose and stolen wins from Merc in the past. You take less risks when you're leading because you have more to lose.
You're stating the obvious.

What I'm saying is Ferrari should have the same mentality. They were the favourites last weekend and totally fked it.

mw88

1,176 posts

91 months

Thursday 4th August
quotequote all
A scary graph from RaceFans showing how much Ferrari have thrown away in the last 10 races.

Going from 46 points up in Australia to 80 behind.



https://www.racefans.net/2022/08/04/how-to-lose-a-...