Official 2022 Italian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[snotrag]

Bloody Hell - Albon went into intentsive care after his op, it didnt exactly go to plan!


Heal well Alex!


https://www.williamsf1.com/posts/30a27ca2-26e6-4b0...

[simon_harris]

Byker28i said:

Has a quick skim, did we find out why Bottas etc sat behind the safety car and didn't unlap?

I've been looking all over and can find no mention of it anywhere which seems odd to me!

[heebeegeetee]

snotrag said:

Bloody Hell - Albon went into intentsive care after his op, it didnt exactly go to plan!


Heal well Alex!


https://www.williamsf1.com/posts/30a27ca2-26e6-4b0...

OMG! Get well soon Alex.

[kambites]

RichB said:

kambites said:

Indeed. We've basically seeing a carbon copy of the more dominant periods of the Hamilton years - everyone knew Hamilton was going to win most of the races even if he didn't start at the front because he had the best car and was a better driver than his teammate, but that didn't make it any less impressive what both the team and the driver were/are achieving.

Of course that's leaving aside the years Hamilton had WDC Jenson Button, WDC Fernando Alonso and WDC Nico Rosberg as his team mates. But this isn't about him, it's about the cakewalk that is Verstappen's championship due to Mercedes not designing a good car and Ferrari constantly doing their best to throw away points.

Err, yeah, that's what I said isn't it? "the more dominant periods of the Hamilton years", ie the ones where he was more dominant.

[PhilAsia]

C70R said:

heebeegeetee said:

C70R said:

Lewis had Bottas as a teammate for four of his titles, and comfortably the best car.

Max is benefiting from an exceptional car this season, but let's not rewrite history here.

Lewis had Rosberg for three of his titles, Alonso almost certainly cost Lewis one title (although possibly none of us wants to see a rookie walk into F1 and win the wdc at his first attempt), plus during the years when a championship wasn't in the offing he still had to battle Button.

Yes he had the best car (and certainly was in the best team) but I think had Lewis been at Ferrari for those 'cheat engine' years he may well have scored two championships for them.

Bottas could take pole from Lewis at Silverstone too. Bottas was quick to begin with, but I think a driver like Lewis just wears his team mates down in the end. Certainly, Nico wasn't prepared to go through another year like he'd had.

Right. All that is fair. But it's absolutely unfair to describe the Max/RB combo as "more of a cakewalk" than Lewis enjoyed at his peak.

WDC wins have historically almost always had:
- The best car
- The fastest, or at least one of the fastest lead drivers
- A teammate who is consistently finishing in the top 4 spots, but not challenging too closely

Max has not always had it all his own way. Ric beat him in 2016 and 2017... And against Norris Ric looks amateurish.

[Sandpit Steve]

snotrag said:

Bloody Hell - Albon went into intentsive care after his op, it didnt exactly go to plan!


Heal well Alex!


https://www.williamsf1.com/posts/30a27ca2-26e6-4b0...

Oh dear, that’s not good but glad he’s getting better.

It does happen sometimes, a reaction to the anesthesic where the body goes back to sleep after waking up - without the full theatre team around. Scary if no-one notices!

[kambites]

PhilAsia said:

Max has not always had it all his own way. Ric beat him in 2016 and 2017... And against Norris Ric looks amateurish.

It's not really the same RIcciardo though... ehether it's that the Mclaren doesn't suit him, or this era of cars doesn't suit him, or both, or he's go worse for some reason... Ricciardo was genuinely one of the best drivers out there in his Redbull days and got more out of his Renault than many thought it should be capable of but at Mclaren he's not really a benchmark.

[MCBrowncoat]

I looked at the stats for this yesterday because I wasn't sure myself. Of Lewis' 7 WDC's:

Two were won with three races then remaining
Two were won at the last race
The other three were won with two races remaining.

In terms of levels of cake-walkery, if Max wraps this up with five races remaining, it's a much bigger cake walk than Lewis ever had.

Of course, there are more races now than there were when Lewis started racing, so that comes into it - and I can't be bothered to go back and check when he won with those races left + how many races in a season - plus that effing stupid 2014 finale where there were double points on offer.

But overall, this has been one of the least competitive seasons I've seen in a while. I'm not sure how far you'd have to go back to find a something worse...One of Schumachers? Mansells? Dunno

[kambites]

MCBrowncoat said:

In terms of levels of cake-walkery, if Max wraps this up with five races remaining, it's a much bigger cake walk than Lewis ever had.

That's partly because Hamilton's teammates were all far closer to him than Perez is to Verstappen. Whether that's a statement about Hamilton's teammates vs Perex, or Hamilton vs Verstappen will obviously come down to one's personal bias but the real answer is that it's impossible to know for certain.

[andburg]

MCBrowncoat said:

I looked at the stats for this yesterday because I wasn't sure myself. Of Lewis' 7 WDC's:

Two were won with three races then remaining
Two were won at the last race
The other three were won with two races remaining.

In terms of levels of cake-walkery, if Max wraps this up with five races remaining, it's a much bigger cake walk than Lewis ever had.

Of course, there are more races now than there were when Lewis started racing, so that comes into it - and I can't be bothered to go back and check when he won with those races left + how many races in a season - plus that effing stupid 2014 finale where there were double points on offer.

But overall, this has been one of the least competitive seasons I've seen in a while. I'm not sure how far you'd have to go back to find a something worse...One of Schumachers? Mansells? Dunno

This year has had the pace differential at the front for a real fight all season long but the other team involved were Ferrari who have squandered opportunities left right and centre.

[PhilAsia]

kambites said:

PhilAsia said:

Max has not always had it all his own way. Ric beat him in 2016 and 2017... And against Norris Ric looks amateurish.

It's not really the same RIcciardo though... ehether it's that the Mclaren doesn't suit him, or this era of cars doesn't suit him, or both, or he's go worse for some reason... Ricciardo was genuinely one of the best drivers out there in his Redbull days and got more out of his Renault than many thought it should be capable of but at Mclaren he's not really a benchmark.

Oh, I agree that Ric isn't performing as he can, but he still beat Max in two seasons. Others have mentioned Bottas, so I thought I would add to the mix. Is Bottas driving as well this season?

[kambites]

Bottas started the season strongly but does seem to have lost his mojo a bit in the latter part of the season.

[C70R]

PhilAsia said:

Max has not always had it all his own way. Ric beat him in 2016 and 2017... And against Norris Ric looks amateurish.

I'm not sure Danny Ric is the sort of paragon of consistency to make that kind of comparison with.

Danny now is a very different driver than Danny 2016.

[entropy]

C70R said:

ch37 said:

C70R said:

Did you watch any of his title seasons?

In the rare instances that he didn't qualify up front, that package was unstoppable carving through the field.

I have a terrible memory, which is why I phrased it as a question, not a statement. So without safety cars/ stoppages or weather, and at every type of circuit, Lewis could cruise through the field without a fight on the rare ocassion he wasn't in the top 7 or so?

The absolute inevitableness when that happens feels new, but as I said I may be wrong.

It's true that his title seasons often saw him as one of the best on a Saturday. But there were plenty of cases where he either didn't qualify up front or had to battle through mid-race.

It's easy to forget how dominant him and that Mercedes were as time diminishes the memory.

Good example is 2021 Brazilian GP sprint race he went from last to P5/P4? but then the Merc was notorious for being poor in traffic/dirty air. 2021 Italian GP spring race springs to mind but then there was hardly an overtake and not even from Lewis in the theoretically faster car.

[C70R]

heebeegeetee said:

C70R said:

- A teammate who is consistently finishing in the top 4 spots, but not challenging too closely

You can't put Alonso, Button, Rosberg, Russel (have I missed anyone) in those categories, you could put all of Max's team mates possibly, except the ones who weren't quick enough for a top four.

I was talking about championship winning teams.

Hamilton didn't win a title with Button or Alonso as his teammate, and he doesn't look like he's going to win one with George in the only season they've shared a car. Rosberg was the outlier.

[C70R]

MCBrowncoat said:

In terms of levels of cake-walkery, if Max wraps this up with five races remaining, it's a much bigger cake walk than Lewis ever had.

That's not really what "cakewalk" means.

That suggests something is made easy for the winner, rather than the winner being exceptional.

While it's fairly obvious that other teams haven't been as consistent, the Max/RB package is one of the outstanding combinations we've ever seen in F1.

To try and put that down to just a lack of competition is doing a phenomenal disservice to the talent and engineering on display here.

[kambites]

C70R said:

While it's fairly obvious that other teams haven't been as consistent, the Max/RB package is one of the outstanding combinations we've ever seen in F1.

As was Hamilton/Mercedes over the last ten years or whatever it was. It's not like the other teams weren't trying, they just couldn't compete at the same level.

The truly remarkable thing about the Mercedes/Hamilton combination wasn't the level of their dominance but the period it spanned. It will be interesting to see if Redbull/Verstappan can manage the same, it's hard to bet against them with the advantage they have at the moment.

Edited by kambites on Monday 12th September 16:36

[C70R]

kambites said:

C70R said:

While it's fairly obvious that other teams haven't been as consistent, the Max/RB package is one of the outstanding combinations we've ever seen in F1.

As was Hamilton/Mercedes over the last ten years or whatever it was. It's not like the other teams weren't trying, they just couldn't compete at the same level.

The truly remarkable thing about the Mercedes/Hamilton combination wasn't the level of their dominance but the period it spanned. It will be interesting to see if Redbull/Verstappan can manage the same, it's hard to bet against them with the advantage they have at the moment.

Edited by kambites on Monday 12th September 16:36

Exactly.

I don't know why everyone in this thread is obsessed with measuring the intangibles.

One thing that is true is that Max may have wrapped up a WDC win faster than Lewis ever did, which is testament to a phenomenal car and driver combination.

[kambites]

C70R said:

One thing that is true is that Max may have wrapped up a WDC win faster than Lewis ever did, which is testament to a phenomenal car and driver combination.

And to Ferrari's incompetence.

[entropy]

C70R said:

PhilAsia said:

Max has not always had it all his own way. Ric beat him in 2016 and 2017... And against Norris Ric looks amateurish.

I'm not sure Danny Ric is the sort of paragon of consistency to make that kind of comparison with.

Danny now is a very different driver than Danny 2016.

Probably shows that Max moved up a level in that time and progressed into a better driver because Max wanted to match Lewis and go toe-to-toe with him whilst Lewis was still at his peak.